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Joy-Anna turns 18th on Oct 28th


countressrascal

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I disagree with speculation about gender identity of any of the Duggars....except the Boob and DQ.  Even the kidults still at home are most likely under very close scrutiny and speculation from us might make their home lives more difficult.....and get sent to Alert forever.

Now The Pecan Thief, on the other hand, is fair game!  Loved his apron!!

So when is it okay? When they're married and have already drug another innocent person into this mess? How does that help anybody?  I respect the rules but I disagree with them in regards to the kidults. It feels way too much like condoning their fear of homosexuality. 

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She won't spill anything. The biggest surprise I'd expect from Joy would for her to be unlike most of her other adult siblings  (except maybe John David) to pursue some type of gainful employment and stick with it. Do any of the others fit those criteria.......Josh, Jana, Jill, Jessa, Jinger, Joseph, Josiah?????? 

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I disagree with speculation about gender identity of any of the Duggars....except the Boob and DQ.  Even the kidults still at home are most likely under very close scrutiny and speculation from us might make their home lives more difficult.....and get sent to Alert forever.

Now The Pecan Thief, on the other hand, is fair game!  Loved his apron!!

So when is it okay? When they're married and have already drug another innocent person into this mess? How does that help anybody?  I respect the rules but I disagree with them in regards to the kidults. It feels way too much like condoning their fear of homosexuality. 

I think the general idea is if someone (like the PT) is not living under their parents' roof and is making the choice to condemn the lifestyles of others, they are fair game.

Fundie adults living at home aren't really making their own choices.   Yes, they choose to stay at home, but there are a host of reasons for this and I'd venture to guess many of us would do the same thing in their situation, especially at 18 or 19.

With that said, the rule here is not applied uniformly.  The older Arndt manboys are cruising towards middle age and still at home, and it seems okay to speculate about which among them might be gay.   And while I'm not sure if any Duggars aside from Famy read out here, I'm reasonably sure Daddy Arndt and possibly some of the boys do.

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Joy has always been my favorite.  If she were a regular 18yo she'll be in high school or in college this year experiencing life. She's not for for the fun die lifestyle. I can't imagine her having a liter of kids. I hate her parents for doing this to her. I don't see her escaping any time soon. She's just another adult kid in fundieland until daddy marries her off

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Wait...Joy went to a PROM?! And there was DANCING?? I wonder if that put ideas in her head. I wonder if a nice boy asked her to dance & she said, "You'll have to ask my daddy."

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Wait...Joy went to a PROM?! And there was DANCING?? I wonder if that put ideas in her head. I wonder if a nice boy asked her to dance & she said, "You'll have to ask my daddy."

I think they were referring to the girl in the picture with Joy, going to Prom.  

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I disagree with speculation about gender identity of any of the Duggars....except the Boob and DQ.  Even the kidults still at home are most likely under very close scrutiny and speculation from us might make their home lives more difficult.....and get sent to Alert forever.

Now The Pecan Thief, on the other hand, is fair game!  Loved his apron!!

So when is it okay? When they're married and have already drug another innocent person into this mess? How does that help anybody?  I respect the rules but I disagree with them in regards to the kidults. It feels way too much like condoning their fear of homosexuality. 

I think the general idea is if someone (like the PT) is not living under their parents' roof and is making the choice to condemn the lifestyles of others, they are fair game.

Fundie adults living at home aren't really making their own choices.   Yes, they choose to stay at home, but there are a host of reasons for this and I'd venture to guess many of us would do the same thing in their situation, especially at 18 or 19.

With that said, the rule here is not applied uniformly.  The older Arndt manboys are cruising towards middle age and still at home, and it seems okay to speculate about which among them might be gay.   And while I'm not sure if any Duggars aside from Famy read out here, I'm reasonably sure Daddy Arndt and possibly some of the boys do.

oh, I definitely undrstand the reasoning, I just disagree with it. Whatever signs that we think we see as a group, the families are closer to it and see more. And furthermore, they attach more weight to it as well. Most adults believe that you can take an interest in fashion or theater and be straight, but I'm not sure that fundy families would. I don't think that our speculation or lack of it adds to  anything that those families would already be working with.

And I find the lack of compassion for David Waller to be disturbing as well. Like everyone else, I think he's totally gayballs, but he's a product of his abusive upbringing just as much as the current kidults. If he'd had more support, maybe he could have found the courage to stay single longer, rather than be cold towards his wife and gathering innocent children.

Without the freedom to completely discuss sexuality, I think we're glossing over some of their most damaging views.

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I disagree with speculation about gender identity of any of the Duggars....except the Boob and DQ.  Even the kidults still at home are most likely under very close scrutiny and speculation from us might make their home lives more difficult.....and get sent to Alert forever.

Now The Pecan Thief, on the other hand, is fair game!  Loved his apron!!

So when is it okay? When they're married and have already drug another innocent person into this mess? How does that help anybody?  I respect the rules but I disagree with them in regards to the kidults. It feels way too much like condoning their fear of homosexuality. 

I think the general idea is if someone (like the PT) is not living under their parents' roof and is making the choice to condemn the lifestyles of others, they are fair game.

Fundie adults living at home aren't really making their own choices.   Yes, they choose to stay at home, but there are a host of reasons for this and I'd venture to guess many of us would do the same thing in their situation, especially at 18 or 19.

With that said, the rule here is not applied uniformly.  The older Arndt manboys are cruising towards middle age and still at home, and it seems okay to speculate about which among them might be gay.   And while I'm not sure if any Duggars aside from Famy read out here, I'm reasonably sure Daddy Arndt and possibly some of the boys do.

oh, I definitely undrstand the reasoning, I just disagree with it. Whatever signs that we think we see as a group, the families are closer to it and see more. And furthermore, they attach more weight to it as well. Most adults believe that you can take an interest in fashion or theater and be straight, but I'm not sure that fundy families would. I don't think that our speculation or lack of it adds to  anything that those families would already be working with.

And I find the lack of compassion for David Waller to be disturbing as well. Like everyone else, I think he's totally gayballs, but he's a product of his abusive upbringing just as much as the current kidults. If he'd had more support, maybe he could have found the courage to stay single longer, rather than be cold towards his wife and gathering innocent children.

Without the freedom to completely discuss sexuality, I think we're glossing over some of their most damaging views.

I don't disagree with you.  Just trying to explain the rationale.  And noting the rule doesn't apply to everyone equally.

As far as fundie families sensing a member is gay, I don't necessarily agree.  I think the denial is often pretty deep and they are probably far less developed in the gaydar department than you or I.   Although I think in Davy's case his parents were concerned about him, hence the more or less forced marriage to a sweet mental lightweight.   But then again, he's not exactly subtle.

 

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I disagree with speculation about gender identity of any of the Duggars....except the Boob and DQ.  Even the kidults still at home are most likely under very close scrutiny and speculation from us might make their home lives more difficult.....and get sent to Alert forever.

Now The Pecan Thief, on the other hand, is fair game!  Loved his apron!!

So when is it okay? When they're married and have already drug another innocent person into this mess? How does that help anybody?  I respect the rules but I disagree with them in regards to the kidults. It feels way too much like condoning their fear of homosexuality. 

I think the general idea is if someone (like the PT) is not living under their parents' roof and is making the choice to condemn the lifestyles of others, they are fair game.

Fundie adults living at home aren't really making their own choices.   Yes, they choose to stay at home, but there are a host of reasons for this and I'd venture to guess many of us would do the same thing in their situation, especially at 18 or 19.

With that said, the rule here is not applied uniformly.  The older Arndt manboys are cruising towards middle age and still at home, and it seems okay to speculate about which among them might be gay.   And while I'm not sure if any Duggars aside from Famy read out here, I'm reasonably sure Daddy Arndt and possibly some of the boys do.

oh, I definitely undrstand the reasoning, I just disagree with it. Whatever signs that we think we see as a group, the families are closer to it and see more. And furthermore, they attach more weight to it as well. Most adults believe that you can take an interest in fashion or theater and be straight, but I'm not sure that fundy families would. I don't think that our speculation or lack of it adds to  anything that those families would already be working with.

And I find the lack of compassion for David Waller to be disturbing as well. Like everyone else, I think he's totally gayballs, but he's a product of his abusive upbringing just as much as the current kidults. If he'd had more support, maybe he could have found the courage to stay single longer, rather than be cold towards his wife and gathering innocent children.

Without the freedom to completely discuss sexuality, I think we're glossing over some of their most damaging views.

I don't disagree with you.  Just trying to explain the rationale.  And noting the rule doesn't apply to everyone equally.

As far as fundie families sensing a member is gay, I don't necessarily agree.  I think the denial is often pretty deep and they are probably far less developed in the gaydar department than you or I.   Although I think in Davy's case his parents were concerned about him, hence the more or less forced marriage to a sweet mental lightweight.   But then again, he's not exactly subtle.

 

No, he is not. 

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I can't see Joy doing the traditional fundie thing, either. She seems like the sort who would have done really well in public school, played a lot of sports, had a bunch of friends, probably gone on to college or university, travelled a bit. She seems active, outgoing and friendly. She's also said a few times that she doesn't want to get married anytime soon and that it doesn't seem like much fun. Obviously she could change her mind, but I really hope they don't try to push her into a courtship or something. I'd love to even see her go to Crown College with Joseph. Yeah, it's still pretty fundie, but at least she'd get away from home, get some kind of higher education, and be able to create more of a life for herself.

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I think people who wait for one of the Duggars to break free are much like those who predict the end of the world; it might happen someday...but I'm not holding my breath. 

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:soapbox:When did the Joshsly scandal break.  Jessa looks pretty damn preggers here, and that is Josh. 

http://www.inquisitr.com/2521890/joy-anna-duggar-turning-18-this-week-will-she-stay-true-to-duggar-ways/

 

So does Josh.

Isn't she due in a few days?   Josh went missing around the third week in August.

I think that photo was taken at the trampolining place, when Joshgate 1 had died down, and before Joshgate 2 hit the fan. 

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I'm not holding my breath, but I do believe that at least one Duggar child will get free. The odds favor it. So many children, so many personalities, so many opportunities as they get older to be exposed to different ways of thinking.

I'm not expecting any of the children to come out publicly against their parents' beliefs, especially not any time soon. It takes time, outside exposure, and discernment to break out of cultish thinking. I was raised fundy-lite and was nearly 30 before I really started questioning most of the core beliefs I was raised with. I'd changed my stances completely both politically and on smaller issues over a decade before I questioned the fundamentalist Bible-beliefs much. I also tend towards being skeptical in the first place, which didn't seem to speed up the process greatly.

I do hope that at least one of them comes out against their parents' beliefs publicly, but given the issues I've had with even telling my parents privately how my beliefs differ from them now, I wouldn't count on any public exposés. 

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Joy has always been my favorite.  If she were a regular 18yo she'll be in high school or in college this year experiencing life. She's not for for the fun die lifestyle. I can't imagine her having a liter of kids. I hate her parents for doing this to her. I don't see her escaping any time soon. She's just another adult kid in fundieland until daddy marries her off

I really don't think the Duggar clan view turning 18 as a rite of passage, just another day.

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Joy might eventually leave, but I don't think it will happen immediately when she is 18. It will take time for the ones who leave to be exposed to different ways of thinking and overcome the brainwashing. I won't be at all surprised if some of the kids leave after being married a few years and realizing that a life of being married to a stranger and popping out kids all the time isn't as fulfilling as Michelle made it seem. IOW, I won't be at all surprised if Jill or Jessa ends up leaving still. 

We already have plenty of evidence that Josh doesn't ACTUALLY believe in a lot of the stuff he was raised in - though it still remains to be seen if he continues to try to maintain the charade he does or admits to his true feelings when he gets out of that "treatment" thing he is doing. 

I don't think anyone will leave until the gravy train completely stops, and the reality of having to make it in the world with no education, skills, money, or even reputation sets in. There are probably still some true believers in the ATI world who will stick with the Duggars, but as we all know, the Gothard empire is contracting quickly. Despite the Duggars' best efforts with their "television ministry," they haven't been able to bring in new blood to ATI, or if they did, the new recruits are being offset by defectors. Gothardism promises worldly rewards for following its rules, and some of the kids could be wondering why they are being punished when they did everything "right." Obviously, if anyone is having such thoughts, they won't be able to articulate them and may not even act on them until the family really reaches rock bottom financially. Since the Duggars are notoriously wasteful for all of their "buy used, save the difference" rhetoric, they could burn though what's left of their money pretty quickly, especially if Benessa and the Dullards are bent on having quivers of their own without finding jobs to support said quivers. I don't think there will be any dramatic escapes, at least not for the foreseeable future. However, I think JB could have problems with some of the middle boys, since I doubt that he will be able to find jobs and wives for all of them, and that could lead to conflict; I don't see James and Jackson, at least, growing up to be as obedient as JD or Joseph appear to be.

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Wait...Joy went to a PROM?! And there was DANCING?? I wonder if that put ideas in her head. I wonder if a nice boy asked her to dance & she said, "You'll have to ask my daddy."

I think they were referring to the girl in the picture with Joy, going to Prom.  

Correct, the girl Joy was with in the IG photo has a picture on her very open f/b with 3 other friends all in dresses that look like prom dresses. Also that girl seems to go to a regular southern Baptist church (but I will let all of you ex-fundie to make that determination). It would be nice if Joy talked to that girl and realize you can be Christian and go to prom and go to school and have a job...

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For a while I felt like Joy could be the one to break free, but she's been so JTTH'd and trained by this point that I don't think she will. And that's by design. You can see that JB and Michelle are already doing it to Hannie (who, like Joy, seems to have a lot of personality and doesn't seem to fit well into the fundie lifestyle or mindset). JB and Michelle have probably seen Joy's 18th birthday from a mile away and have likely done everything they can to make sure she won't even consider bolting. They did it to Jinger, they did it to Joy, and they'll definitely do it to Hannie and Jenni.

Don't forget they did it to Jana, too. Michelle once stated that Jana used to be just like Hannie.

And they'll do it to Josie, too. They'll let Josie be Josie until she reaches puberty, then they'll retrain her, just like they did with Jana, Jinger, and Joy.

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When did the Joshsly scandal break.  Jessa looks pretty damn preggers here, and that is Josh. 

http://www.inquisitr.com/2521890/joy-anna-duggar-turning-18-this-week-will-she-stay-true-to-duggar-ways/

 

looks like May to me - based on other pictures 

when did the first scandal break June ? 

Joy might eventually leave, but I don't think it will happen immediately when she is 18. It will take time for the ones who leave to be exposed to different ways of thinking and overcome the brainwashing. I won't be at all surprised if some of the kids leave after being married a few years and realizing that a life of being married to a stranger and popping out kids all the time isn't as fulfilling as Michelle made it seem. IOW, I won't be at all surprised if Jill or Jessa ends up leaving still. 

We already have plenty of evidence that Josh doesn't ACTUALLY believe in a lot of the stuff he was raised in - though it still remains to be seen if he continues to try to maintain the charade he does or admits to his true feelings when he gets out of that "treatment" thing he is doing. 

I don't think anyone will leave until the gravy train completely stops, and the reality of having to make it in the world with no education, skills, money, or even reputation sets in. There are probably still some true believers in the ATI world who will stick with the Duggars, but as we all know, the Gothard empire is contracting quickly. Despite the Duggars' best efforts with their "television ministry," they haven't been able to bring in new blood to ATI, or if they did, the new recruits are being offset by defectors. Gothardism promises worldly rewards for following its rules, and some of the kids could be wondering why they are being punished when they did everything "right." Obviously, if anyone is having such thoughts, they won't be able to articulate them and may not even act on them until the family really reaches rock bottom financially. Since the Duggars are notoriously wasteful for all of their "buy used, save the difference" rhetoric, they could burn though what's left of their money pretty quickly, especially if Benessa and the Dullards are bent on having quivers of their own without finding jobs to support said quivers. I don't think there will be any dramatic escapes, at least not for the foreseeable future. However, I think JB could have problems with some of the middle boys, since I doubt that he will be able to find jobs and wives for all of them, and that could lead to conflict; I don't see James and Jackson, at least, growing up to be as obedient as JD or Joseph appear to be.

those are different types of boys as well - James and Jackson compared to JD or Joseph - 

James and Jackson were born or pre born on the show and probably told to act that way on camera 

While JD and Joseph just seem very agile guys - or could have been what "trained" better  - no clue 

I often wonder if JD likes any of what is going on 

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For a while I felt like Joy could be the one to break free, but she's been so JTTH'd and trained by this point that I don't think she will. And that's by design. You can see that JB and Michelle are already doing it to Hannie (who, like Joy, seems to have a lot of personality and doesn't seem to fit well into the fundie lifestyle or mindset). JB and Michelle have probably seen Joy's 18th birthday from a mile away and have likely done everything they can to make sure she won't even consider bolting. They did it to Jinger, they did it to Joy, and they'll definitely do it to Hannie and Jenni.

Don't forget they did it to Jana, too. Michelle once stated that Jana used to be just like Hannie.

And they'll do it to Josie, too. They'll let Josie be Josie until she reaches puberty, then they'll retrain her, just like they did with Jana, Jinger, and Joy.

I hold to my theory that Josie is basically a slightly more feral Nellie Olesen at this point, and by the time she's in her teens, Jimchelle will be so worn out and manipulated by her (she's probably figured out that she can play up the I'm a Cute Frail Little Preemie Miracle angle to get what she wants) that they'll basically let her do whatever the hell she wants. And the other sisters will heavily resent her for it.

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For a while I felt like Joy could be the one to break free, but she's been so JTTH'd and trained by this point that I don't think she will. And that's by design. You can see that JB and Michelle are already doing it to Hannie (who, like Joy, seems to have a lot of personality and doesn't seem to fit well into the fundie lifestyle or mindset). JB and Michelle have probably seen Joy's 18th birthday from a mile away and have likely done everything they can to make sure she won't even consider bolting. They did it to Jinger, they did it to Joy, and they'll definitely do it to Hannie and Jenni.

Don't forget they did it to Jana, too. Michelle once stated that Jana used to be just like Hannie.

And they'll do it to Josie, too. They'll let Josie be Josie until she reaches puberty, then they'll retrain her, just like they did with Jana, Jinger, and Joy.

I hold to my theory that Josie is basically a slightly more feral Nellie Olesen at this point, and by the time she's in her teens, Jimchelle will be so worn out and manipulated by her (she's probably figured out that she can play up the I'm a Cute Frail Little Preemie Miracle angle to get what she wants) that they'll basically let her do whatever the hell she wants. And the other sisters will heavily resent her for it.

I would agree with that IF Michelle and JB were more hands on as parents. As it is, the only thing they've really had to do is break their children's spirits when said children are in their teens. And, that doesn't take too much work on that part. I mean, JttH and ALERT are there for the lazy parents. And, the best I can tell, you can send your kids there for as long as they're not married. If they're really that tired, they can just send Josie to JttH until she comes back as broken as Jana.

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For a while I felt like Joy could be the one to break free, but she's been so JTTH'd and trained by this point that I don't think she will. And that's by design. You can see that JB and Michelle are already doing it to Hannie (who, like Joy, seems to have a lot of personality and doesn't seem to fit well into the fundie lifestyle or mindset). JB and Michelle have probably seen Joy's 18th birthday from a mile away and have likely done everything they can to make sure she won't even consider bolting. They did it to Jinger, they did it to Joy, and they'll definitely do it to Hannie and Jenni.

Don't forget they did it to Jana, too. Michelle once stated that Jana used to be just like Hannie.

And they'll do it to Josie, too. They'll let Josie be Josie until she reaches puberty, then they'll retrain her, just like they did with Jana, Jinger, and Joy.

I hold to my theory that Josie is basically a slightly more feral Nellie Olesen at this point, and by the time she's in her teens, Jimchelle will be so worn out and manipulated by her (she's probably figured out that she can play up the I'm a Cute Frail Little Preemie Miracle angle to get what she wants) that they'll basically let her do whatever the hell she wants. And the other sisters will heavily resent her for it.

I would agree with that IF Michelle and JB were more hands on as parents. As it is, the only thing they've really had to do is break their children's spirits when said children are in their teens. And, that doesn't take too much work on that part. I mean, JttH and ALERT are there for the lazy parents. And, the best I can tell, you can send your kids there for as long as they're not married. If they're really that tired, they can just send Josie to JttH until she comes back as broken as Jana.

I don't think Jana was broken by JttH, though. She got a lot more hands-on brainwashing as a child. She was kept busy caring for her siblings as well. The younger kids have been exposed to outsiders at a critical young age. With Josie and the other little girls, they'll have more free time as teenagers, even if they occasionally get pimped out as babysitters. Free time leads to ideas, and ideas lead to rebellion. I think that Jim Bob and Michelle will *try* to retrain them at JttH and ALERT, but that by then it will probably be too late. I can't see the TTH being anything other than total chaos in ten years. 

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For a while I felt like Joy could be the one to break free, but she's been so JTTH'd and trained by this point that I don't think she will. And that's by design. You can see that JB and Michelle are already doing it to Hannie (who, like Joy, seems to have a lot of personality and doesn't seem to fit well into the fundie lifestyle or mindset). JB and Michelle have probably seen Joy's 18th birthday from a mile away and have likely done everything they can to make sure she won't even consider bolting. They did it to Jinger, they did it to Joy, and they'll definitely do it to Hannie and Jenni.

Don't forget they did it to Jana, too. Michelle once stated that Jana used to be just like Hannie.

And they'll do it to Josie, too. They'll let Josie be Josie until she reaches puberty, then they'll retrain her, just like they did with Jana, Jinger, and Joy.

I hold to my theory that Josie is basically a slightly more feral Nellie Olesen at this point, and by the time she's in her teens, Jimchelle will be so worn out and manipulated by her (she's probably figured out that she can play up the I'm a Cute Frail Little Preemie Miracle angle to get what she wants) that they'll basically let her do whatever the hell she wants. And the other sisters will heavily resent her for it.

I would agree with that IF Michelle and JB were more hands on as parents. As it is, the only thing they've really had to do is break their children's spirits when said children are in their teens. And, that doesn't take too much work on that part. I mean, JttH and ALERT are there for the lazy parents. And, the best I can tell, you can send your kids there for as long as they're not married. If they're really that tired, they can just send Josie to JttH until she comes back as broken as Jana.

I don't think Jana was broken by JttH, though. She got a lot more hands-on brainwashing as a child. She was kept busy caring for her siblings as well. The younger kids have been exposed to outsiders at a critical young age. With Josie and the other little girls, they'll have more free time as teenagers, even if they occasionally get pimped out as babysitters. Free time leads to ideas, and ideas lead to rebellion. I think that Jim Bob and Michelle will *try* to retrain them at JttH and ALERT, but that by then it will probably be too late. I can't see the TTH being anything other than total chaos in ten years. 

We can only hope (about the chaos).

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I still really, really, really, really want Joy Anna (& her siblings) to get a chance at a life that she chooses, instead of the crappy life her parents have foisted upon her, and I still realize it's unlikely to happen anytime soon. But I guess I'll reduce my desire for a tell all book down to one "really". Y'all have posted some pretty insightful truths about the consequences that would befall the tell-all-er. I wouldn't wish that on Joy or any of them. I'd probably still line up to buy a copy, especially if it was truthful, and not just spite. 

Side note: Remember when Joy still got to hang out with her brothers and skate board? I remember being impressed with her ability to skateboard in a long skirt. I can't skateboard in any outfit. :my_rolleyes:

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