Law and Order: Duggars

[AliceInFundyland]

He was forced into sexual contact without his knowledge and consent. He was raped. Rape is thought more of as homosexual with men, but as with your friend it happens heterosexually too. There should be no double standard here. Good for you for believing him. Very few men come forward because they are less believed than women.

It's so true. His own family doesn't even buy it. 

...and he attempted to confront the girl. She refused to acknowledge it and said it was consensual and he was "into it." Which brings up another point-erection doesn't equal consent. You never see arousal discussed when it comes to female rape. I believe, knowing him, and the girl, that she woke up in the middle of the night, rolled over, and equated an erection with desire. He was blacked out and operated solely out of instinct. It's a shitty scenario. He actually told the police. It didn't go anywhere. That made him feel even worse. In the end he's just burying it and doubting himself; it sucks.

[Paperplate]

We've experienced some thread drift, so this doesn't fit well into the current conversation, but I re-watched the episode and noticed something:

While the three older girls get these names: 

[...] And lastly: Where fundies get the ideas for their kids' names:

The two younger ones (TWINS!) are named Belle and Brie.

Sure, let's name those identical twins "Beauty and the Cheese". 

And, unbelievably, there's an actual cheese named Briebelle: http://www.hunterbellecheese.com.au/index.php/shopbot/product/60-triple-cream-brie

 

 

[Buzzard]

As promised, my take on the Law and Order episode, from the perspective of a prosecutor and a Duggar snarker...

Dum Dum

"The following story is fictional and does not depict any actual person or event."  Yup, they changed just enoug/mushed enough stories together that its only mildly recognizable to the Duggars yet still totally about them.

Dum Dum

I have to stop at the intro "sexually based offenses are considered especially heinous..." Yeah, so is animal cruelty, murder (as in regular L&O), and hate crimes... all kinds of shit is heinous, they need a better into

Squicky pledge at the purity ball.  Daddy and daughter take a vow in front of a GIANT cross... we know the duggar daughters do have a purity ring, and possibly do take a pledge.  We also know that they do value the "father daughter relationship" and fake JB believes that it is his job to protect their purity until he hands them off...  

Back in the fake dorm/bedroom - Lane explains that she is going to her purity ball and is excited.  She gets to wear the same dress that her sisters wore.  She holds a stuffed animal that appears to be a pink pig (razorback easter egg?) and sits behind a blanked that says "jesus loves me."  The room has curtains reminiscent of the Duggar sofa.  Love the bunk beds... 

The family is seen getting off of a bus in manhattan. Daddy helps them off, Lane says "sure is busier here than allenville."  Um, you guys are supposedly in NYC a lot... so I'm not sure if Allenville is akin to Fayetville... or what they were going for in that line.  The other kids wheel luggage in,  Summer has to grab a baby carrier from Graham because that would be wimmenz work.  A howler is in the background with a football... fake michelle gets off the bus and utters her "almost" Duggar line "It isnt easy with a big family, but we always pull it together."  The kids walk in a line... 

Fake Michelle helps fake boob to get dressed.  No hair spray is shown.  FM says "she'll never forget this night with her daddy..." I guess if this were Duggardom it would be because its only one of 4 nights with him.

In the dorm (I'm confused why there is a seperate dorm for them in Manhattan..." Summer does Lane's hair.  They have longish blonde hair and they put it up.  Lane says "do you think daddy will approve?" We know Jim Bob LOVES long, crunchy hair... so... no?

In comes the dress and a tiara.  

At the purity ball the fathers dance (we know that would never happen).  "somewhere out there" plays... Voiceover "Its important for a girl to feel love and acceptance, if she's not feeling that from her father she seeks it out from other men."  

Summer - shows off her promise ring

Tymber says she's very blessed, the only man she's ever kissed is her husband.  How dare she speak!  He says "but boy have we made up for lost time."  Very Duggar appropriate... they kiss

Graham - When do we get to eat the cake?  YAY Josh!

A toddler runs away 

Fake Michelle - The little ones are very spirited (it should be noted that she's wearing black...)Summer is sent to chase after the toddler (which we later find out is her child).  Graham goes to help.

Fake JB spins Lane, and she passes out.  Everyone runs to her including fake Jim... No one pulls out a cell phone to film so it must not be the duggars.

At the hospital, Olivia gets off the elevator and is greated by 2 detectives (I dont know their names).  They cal lthem "americas favorite family."  I cant think of anytime in my career that 3 detectives (including a lt) responded to a hospital to take an initial statement from a minor.  Actually, that would never happen... 

They explain the concept of a virtue ball, and Lane is 3 months pregnant.  The Bakers stand in the hallway in a circle and pray.  They are appropriately boy-girl-boy

COMMERCIAL

Olivia talks to fake boob and michelle.  They call it a "family matter" and they didnt call the police.  Fake Michelle tries to prevent her from speaking to the police.  Boob wants to talk to her first.  Michelle says "we dont need your help>  Olivia says, pretty much , STFU.  

Dr. Says no trauma. Parents prevented her from speaking.

Olivia says it wasnt an immaculate conception and asks if she was alone with boys. They homeskool... the pastor shows up wearing a collar and giant silver cross.  He tells Olivia that they will speak to the "local" authorities.  He's not just their pastor, he's their lawyer too.  Yup, sorry... it dont work like that... You dont get to decide where venue lies and you dont get to choose which police you will be interviewed by, especially when a minor is involved.

Back at the precinct... they are frustrated that they dont trust outsiders.  The Duggars are referenced... if the word gets out there goes the show, the book deal, the multi million dollar chastity empire...  They have the Baker family up on the suspect board.  One of the cops asks why they are proceeding with a case, its just like iwththe hasidim and they will close ranks.  Its outside of their jurisdiction.

Pregnant cop googles and finds out that it may have happened when they were in Harlem... in NYC jurisdiction... so now they decide they can go interview her again.

Finn and Dodds are sent back to speak to Lane.  Finn says when this happened with the hasidim the DA called them off.

Lane was discharged and the hospital didnt notify police (happens all the time).  

Finn and Dodds find them still in NY.  Fake Boob and Michelle are doing a TH.  They're going home.  Fake humpers film in the background.  They try to say they will talk to local cops, the detectives tell them nope... and invite them to the station.

Finn offers howler a soda, they cant have that.  The baby is cold.  They order them pizza. Fake Josh wants pepperoni (the duggars dont eat pork... so they say....)

Fake Josh goes with FInn. He says he's not supposed to talk about it but he was painting over graffiti with her.  He was alone with her "team baker and the crew..."  They go and order the pizza.

Fake Boob says that he'd be more comfortable if he was with Lane.

Fake Michelle questions pregnant cop about whether her husband cares that she's working and notes that she's not wearing her wedding ring, but that can happen with the swelling.

Olivia interviews Lane.  NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE.  A child would be interviewed by a forensic interviewer with no knowledge of the facts.  Not the detective and HELL TO THE NO a LT.  

Lane - being pregnant is god's will.  Olivia asks if she know how... Lane says she had sexual activity.  Olivia - you didnt do anything wrong... who did it? 

Lane - nope... not gonna tell...

Finn questions fake boob.  They were there in July.  He says "maybe I should call pastor elden again." This is legally tricky because he was introduced as the attorney.  Finn responds "you didnt do anything wrong, right?"  So, in the real world this is where I get uncomfortable watching the interview... because he technically asked for a lawyer and the interview should stop... but for the purposes of this plot line he isnt the suspect, the interview isnt being recorded (which in the real world is why they'd continue), so asking for the lawyer isnt an automatic CEASE INTERVIEW.  Legally, though... they need to quit talking to him and give him a phone.

Olivia (with lane) - Asks who it was in broad terms. Lane says that he loves her.  Olivia says if he loves her he wont get into trouble.  She asks her to write it down... 

Detectives go and question fake cameraman.  They happen to have a warrant handy and shove a buccal swab in his mouth.  Apparently Lane pointed the finger at him ( a la internet rumors about the camera men with histories but never with the duggars)

COMMERCIAL

Fake Michelle says that he is a long term crew member and they trusted him.  They raise their children to tell the truth.

Fake Boob is angry.  He wants 5 minutes alone with him.

Olivia asks for permission to do an amnio - Wait, WHAT???  You need the DNA now?  Da FUQ??? 

Fake Michelle says no because it will risk the baby.  Olivia says they cant hold pete for the DNA.  Fake Michelle says get him to confess. Olivia says that there are other daughters and this may not be the first time he's done this.

Legal sidenote.  Its called PROBABLE CAUSE.  IF they chose to arrest him and IF he was indicted ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY he could have been held pending trial.  You dont need all your evidence up front... in fact, I dont know a single case outside of CODIS where I have the DNA results back before prior to arrest.  We get that later.  This does show, though, the pitfall of the system where real police arrest based on the outcry of a victim, only to have it disproven later.  Thats why its called an investigation.

Fake Michelle thinks about one of the other girls being molested... cut to...

Finn and Dodds somehow magically search prior footage that wasnt on this camera and find video of the girls taking their tops off in the bathroom.  Fake cameraguy says it "looks bad" ... they say he has child pornography and its a federal charge.  It is?  Really?  Did he cross state lines that I'm not aware of?

Fake Camera guy says he should have erased it... but he didnt rape lane.  They tell him she's pregnant and he laughs.  He had a vasectomy 10 years ago.  WHOOPS!  Lane fingered him because she does what she's told.  He has footage in the cloud going "way back"... 

Detectives review video and it shows fake josh (graham) pretending to touch various women on the breasts and just generally behaving like an ass.  He doesnt actually make contact with the "piano teacher" (read: babysitter) but she dropped out.  The "judge" sent him to "camp righteous path" in Canada.  Read: gothardville.

Finn and Dodds interview the judge on a golf course.  He says he sent him as a church elder and not as a judge.  Thats why there's no record of it..  He went because he needed to be around young men to "let some steam off."  He didnt have trouble with his sisters, everyone has seen the show!  A man pulls up in a golf cart, its the pastor/lawyer's father.  

On the way back they talk about there being no records of prior issues.  They get pulled over by a local LEO.  He just happens to have a copy of the reports in his hand and gives it to Dodds.  He tells him to "drive carefully."  3 counts of forcible touching, assault on a minor, speeding ticket... sealed.

Olivia walks in on a bible study to speak to Pastor and fake boob/michelle.  They tell them that they arent charging fake cameraman, they ask where Graham is.  Boob says "bad choices" ... and that they sent him to ecuador.  Pastor tells them to leave "as their attorney."

Back at the precinct they note that there is no good extradition treaty with ecuador.  So they'll have to wait for the baby to be born... Pregnant cop notes that all of the pregnancies are covered except tate, who was born 11 months after the other baby.  The way they announced is weird, she didnt look pregnant, and she wasnt really shown.  They think Summer is the mother and Graham is the father. 

Sourpuss detective says graham is in ecuador and they wont cooperate.  Its called a search warrant... its not an invitation.

Finn says that Tate drooled all over his jacket so they can get DNA from that.  They can get DNA from Frank, who was in ROTC (um, not a duggar!)... 

Olivia sees sourpuss detective.  He walks out with her and apologizes for speaking out of turn.  She says she likes an open and free exchange of ideas... apparently he's new.

ME's office.  Wait, HUH? The medical examiner is now doing DNA? SHe must be MAGICAL! And wait, detectives go down there to stare at the screens?  I wish I had time like that... I'm lucky if I can log into the computer to get my results.  What happened to peer review? 

Anyway,  Graham isnt daddy.  No Baker DNA so its not a Baker daddy... but it may be mommy.  They can tell that its a white male, though.  Pregnant cop needs to go to the hospital.

COMMERCIAL

At the hospital, pregnant cop questions her life choices.  

At the precinct, they discuss that Graham isnt daddy and it would be weird for there to be 2 predators.  They figure out it must be the pastor.  They google and sure enough, he was with Summer when she was pregnant.. in NYC.

They go up to the church and talk to him.  He says "on advice of counsel..."  Um... yeah, not so much.  There are penalties for failure to cooperate in an ongoing investigation regarding the sexual assault of a minor.  Its called , lose custody of child.  

They ask if he was with Lane and spent time alone with her.  Pastor says that they shouldnt question him because of "respect."  They feel threatened and its religious persecution... blah blah souls... They whip out a warrant for his DNA and magically also have a buccal swab.

The computer program run by the ME matches the pastor ... really fast...

THey drive up to to bakerville and find them in the middle of a wedding ceremony.  They have the Baker's permission and is going to provide for Lane and the baby.  So heres the thing, even if he did marry her, it wouldnt negate the crime.  Its stat rape because AT THE TIME of the offense they werent married.  She can be compelled to testify against her present husband, and she would still be forced to submit the baby for DNA, so this litle plot twist is pretty much just that.  

The Bakers say they consented to protect Lane and it will be in name only.  They tall the bakers that he is the father.  The judge leaves with Lane.  Fake Michelle denies that Summer had a baby.  Pastor tells them to stop talking and mumbles about it being inadmissible.  He then tells them to leave because they have no jurisdiction.  Thats cute, because there is a local cop behind him. Legally HE would be the one to take him into custody on the NYPD warrant, which is valid.

They talk about graham confessing.  Fake boob says that graham confessed to... the pastor... Fake Michelle asks Lane if its true.  Lane says "he loves me... its god's plan for us."  Pastor says that it will be godly.  Fake Michelle yells, pastor tells fake boob to "get a hold of your wife."  He tells her that she cant say no to him, he's her "patriarch."  she yells at him.

The judge says nothing... Pastor - they have no case, they told the whole world that tate was their baby... if the fans find out.

Fake Michelle - they dont care about the damn show and neither does frank (fake boob).

Local LEO takes him into custody, they take turns reciting miranda.  

THe bakers do a press conference to explain that it was all the pastor's fault and their main concern is the girls.  Apparently he's going to plea to the charges and go to prison.  Grouchy cop says that he thought that SVU would be taking rapists off the streets, not churches.  Olivia says that most rapists dont hide on the streets, they hide where they're trusted.

DUM DUM

 

[ViolaSebastian]

Where can I watch this? I don't have TV, but I have a netflix and prime account. Apparently I can no longer watch anything on hulu unless I have an account? Someone said it was on youtube but I can't find it.

Here's the link, if you haven't found it yet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iovn4RhoBE

[CyborgKin]

Important question:

In the fictional universe in which Baker's Dozen exists, would a snark site called freetymber.org also exist?

[Jana814]

Important question:

In the fictional universe in which Baker's Dozen exists, would a snark site called freetymber.org also exist?

haha! 

[Buzzard]

Important question:

In the fictional universe in which Baker's Dozen exists, would a snark site called freetymber.org also exist?

Definitely.  If all of their episodes are online (and therefore accessible to detectives) they definitely would have been reading the parallel version of FJ.  

[SilverBeach]

Buzzard...great recap, theme music and all! Just one thing, the scene in the station right at the beginning where the Duggar name is dropped, kind of caught me off guard but established that this was the Not Duggars being investigated, HAHA. 

Oh, love FreeTymber. If my parents had named me after wood, I would have disowned them! 

Thanks again Buzzard. 

[quiversR4hunting]

As promised, my take on the Law and Order episode, from the perspective of a prosecutor and a Duggar snarker...

<massive snip>

Olivia interviews Lane.  NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE.  A child would be interviewed by a forensic interviewer with no knowledge of the facts.  Not the detective and HELL TO THE NO a LT.  

<another massive snip>

 

BD Wong used to be the psychologist on the show (IIRC). (to the bold) Would he be more like a forensic interviewer?  (to the underline) But I believe he knew the facts prior to interviewing the victims. So what does a LT do in an investigation? I assume nothing but supervisor or help be a sounding board if a team gets stuck but not actually hands on with cases.

Thanks for your PA point of view, #Buzzard, and congrats on your award!

#SilverBeach- love your name. There is a Silver Lake Sand Dunes on Lake Michigan makes me think of that every time I see your name. (I realize there are about 100+ Silver Beaches across the US and some in Canada so you probably aren't referencing the one on Lake Michigan but your name makes me smile each time I see it.)

[anaandrade]

Important question:

In the fictional universe in which Baker's Dozen exists, would a snark site called freetymber.org also exist?

Nah, there would be a a forum here on FJ dedicated to the Bakers. The Duggars do exist in the same world as the Bakers.

[justoneoftwo]

It's so true. His own family doesn't even buy it. 

...and he attempted to confront the girl. She refused to acknowledge it and said it was consensual and he was "into it." Which brings up another point-erection doesn't equal consent. You never see arousal discussed when it comes to female rape. I believe, knowing him, and the girl, that she woke up in the middle of the night, rolled over, and equated an erection with desire. He was blacked out and operated solely out of instinct. It's a shitty scenario. He actually told the police. It didn't go anywhere. That made him feel even worse. In the end he's just burying it and doubting himself; it sucks.

Actually this is used against women all the time, though it is harder to prove.  Men should be believed exactly as much as women should, I expect this happens to men much more often then we know, because no one is willing to claim it happened to them.  

[Sweet Fellowship]

I finally found somewhere online to watch the episode. I really thought they'd have the culprit turn out to be the older son ("Josh"). I was surprised to see it was the pastor/lawyer. The episode was okay but I felt it didn't go into how horrid Gothardism is. The Bakers seemed to be portrayed pretty normal, compared to the Duggars anyway.

[GeoBQn]

I just noticed that in the Baker's Dozen logo, the "B" is made up of the number 13.  Well played, show.

[Stokstaartje]

Nah, there would be a a forum here on FJ dedicated to the Bakers. The Duggars do exist in the same world as the Bakers.

Which leads to the question; would there be a Duggar/Baker courtship? 

[Buzzard]

BD Wong used to be the psychologist on the show (IIRC). (to the bold) Would he be more like a forensic interviewer?  (to the underline) But I believe he knew the facts prior to interviewing the victims. So what does a LT do in an investigation? I assume nothing but supervisor or help be a sounding board if a team gets stuck but not actually hands on with cases.

Thanks for your PA point of view, #Buzzard, and congrats on your award!

#SilverBeach- love your name. There is a Silver Lake Sand Dunes on Lake Michigan makes me think of that every time I see your name. (I realize there are about 100+ Silver Beaches across the US and some in Canada so you probably aren't referencing the one on Lake Michigan but your name makes me smile each time I see it.)

 

Thanks!

The Lt is mostly a supervisor.  They are "white shirts" and only show up when the shit hits the fan, major events/projects, or when directly directed.  I cant think of a single case (in a major jurisdiction, smaller venues may promote based on experience) where a LT has been involved, including cases that made national and international news.

I didnt watch the show to know who they had as interviewerers, but its generally someone with a degree specializing in children in traumatic circumstances.  They are extremely careful in word choice and the entire thing is taped.  Because children are subject to suggestion (ahem, fingering the wrong person), its truly an art to interview a child. 

[SilverBeach]

SilverBeach- love your name. There is a Silver Lake Sand Dunes on Lake Michigan makes me think of that every time I see your name. (I realize there are about 100+ Silver Beaches across the US and some in Canada so you probably aren't referencing the one on Lake Michigan but your name makes me smile each time I see it.)

 

Thank you, I am by Lake Michigan in the Chicago area, but I actually chose this SN because it's my car's official color and I love it! Silvery and goldy mixed together. I do like the zen of my avatar.

[Mercer]

I really wish the show writers hadn't made the decision to change the sexual molestation into rape/pregnancy. I understand they had to make it different from the real story and it was probably a lot easier for storytelling purposes, but it kind of seems like tacit agreement with the Duggars that the inappropriate touching alone wasn't a big deal because it wasn't intercourse and no premarital pregnancy could result. It makes it seem like the girls being molested isn't "enough" and it had to be changed to something more sensational. As I said, I understand the reasons for the decision on some level, I just feel like it's a bit minimizing to the abuse the actual victims suffered, which has been minimized too much by their family already.

[CyborgKin]

Nah, there would be a a forum here on FJ dedicated to the Bakers. The Duggars do exist in the same world as the Bakers.

Good point!

Which leads to the question; would there be a Duggar/Baker courtship? 

Nah, the Duggars would think the Bakers are too worldly!  And the Bakers would think the same about the Duggars.

[EyeQueue]

And Rollins would be a prolific poster. 

Definitely.  If all of their episodes are online (and therefore accessible to detectives) they definitely would have been reading the parallel version of FJ.  

[SilverBeach]

I really wish the show writers hadn't made the decision to change the sexual molestation into rape/pregnancy. I understand they had to make it different from the real story and it was probably a lot easier for storytelling purposes, but it kind of seems like tacit agreement with the Duggars that the inappropriate touching alone wasn't a big deal because it wasn't intercourse and no premarital pregnancy could result. It makes it seem like the girls being molested isn't "enough" and it had to be changed to something more sensational. As I said, I understand the reasons for the decision on some level, I just feel like it's a bit minimizing to the abuse the actual victims suffered, which has been minimized too much by their family already.

Law and Order has never been a documentary. I didn't get any sense of what you are saying here, especially tacitly agreeing with the Duggars. Via the Not Duggars, the real Duggars were excoriated!

[bucket]

And Rollins would be a prolific poster. 

 

ha! Especially while on des duty due to pregnancy! 

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

There'd never be a Duggar/Baker courtship because the Bakers dance. It's like how there would never be a Duggar courtship with that family that was set to replace them on TLC (I forgot their names.... the ones that sing and dance and make all their kids do weight training).

[Mercer]

Law and Order has never been a documentary. I didn't get any sense of what you are saying here, especially tacitly agreeing with the Duggars. Via the Not Duggars, the real Duggars were excoriated!

It isn't a documentary, but the writers were very clear they were basing their fictional story on actual events. They made decisions about what aspects of the real situation to keep and which to change. I found it unfortunate that one of the changes they chose to make was to change the sexual molestation into rape resulting in pregnancy, particularly since the Duggars actually used the "it's not like it was rape" defense to completely minimize the actual abuse Josh committed and since they place such a high value on physical virginity.

I didn't get any impression that the writers thought that Josh did nothing wrong or anything like that, but changing the situation so it was rape came off to me like agreement by default that without forced intercourse the story wasn't bad enough.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

It isn't a documentary, but the writers were very clear they were basing their fictional story on actual events. They made decisions about what aspects of the real situation to keep and which to change. I found it unfortunate that one of the changes they chose to make was to change the sexual molestation into rape resulting in pregnancy, particularly since the Duggars actually used the "it's not like it was rape" defense to completely minimize the actual abuse Josh committed and since they place such a high value on physical virginity.

I didn't get any impression that the writers thought that Josh did nothing wrong or anything like that, but changing the situation so it was rape came off to me like agreement by default that without forced intercourse the story wasn't bad enough.

While I agree with what you're saying, I think that it had to more or less be something like this in order for there to be a plot. A girl in her position isn't going to turn to the authorities in the case of molestation. The only way they'd have found out is via the pregnancy. Hence the need to go that direction.

[Mercer]

While I agree with what you're saying, I think that it had to more or less be something like this in order for there to be a plot. A girl in her position isn't going to turn to the authorities in the case of molestation. The only way they'd have found out is via the pregnancy. Hence the need to go that direction.

I get what you're saying too, except... we did find out what actually happened, so it's by definition possible.

Obviously they would need to change some aspects of how it came to light versus the real version to involve an active investigation, but the timeline and details could be adjusted.