Duggars By the Dozen - General Discussion -14

[EmCatlyn]

I think Jana is far too useful to let go.

Regarding the disgusting dry-humping and "Does it turn you on" comment: It's bothering me that Jessa did NOT blush, cover her face, and scream the fundie equivalent of "OMG - DAD- STOP!" like any normal teenager would. I'm really REALLY starting to wonder what else they've been exposed to when the cameras aren't rolling. And possibly what they've been forced to do. And I'm not talking about Josh.

We are not supposed to speculate about possible victims (and not just of Josh) but I think it is OK to note that JB's attitude to his daughters includes seeing them as sex objects and that his attitude towards sons and son-in-laws is always linked to his need to be the "dominant male."

The sexual exhibitionism of the parents is completely inappropriate in any context but it is particularly so in a "purity culture." Traditional cultures where premarital sex is forbidden or discouraged generally have customs and conventions about inappropriate displays of sexuality before those who are expected to remain "innocent."

In American culture (especially in the South, where the Duggars and their friends mostly live) there is still a verbal code of what may/may not be said in front of a "lady." This code is connected to the idea that "pure" women will not know and will not want to think of sex outside the privacy of the bedroom.

In short, the sexual exhibitionism of the Duggar parents is just one more way in which they are hypocrites. They have embraced this whole "purity" thing not out of sincere misgivings about the "permissive" secular culture they are leaving but because insisting on "purity" from their unmarried children is a way to set themselves apart and make themselves special. (Only mommy and daddy get to do this wonderful thing...)

ETA that St Clara's analysis of the possible situation with Jana--who has come to occupy the "pure mother" role in that family--seems accurate to me. it may not be the whole story--what is? But it is certainly a large part of it.

[singsingsing]

I'm not at all trying to say Jessa is actually attracted to her dad. I'm just painting a horrifying possible thought process for everyone.

A thought process that is totally revolting and completely unnecessary. Is this what we're descending to, idly speculating whether Jessa was turned on by her own father? I'm... just... holy shit. What the ever loving God is wrong with some of you?

[gustava]

Both posters analyzed the Duggars from an appropriate academic perspective. I concur that the upbringing and daily life of the Duggars and the Arndts is emotionally and psychologically unhealthy. And we've certainly questioned the possibility of emotional incest with the Botkinettes. Being taught to shave one's father and out his slippers on for him is ..... sick.

[Wenny]

While this is probably not the whole story I do think that there is a strong subconscious antagonism in the Duggar family to the idea of Jana courting. The dichotomy of "good woman/mother"- "bad woman/whore" is still present in our culture and it´s (imho) easy to see that the Duggars have strong issues with it. Josh´s behaviour presents but one example of this. Anna never stood a chance of turning him on, independent of how attractive she may be as a person, because she represents the good woman, the mother, the family-approved bride. It´s the eternal curse of the fundie wives that they are expected to give their husbands all they´d ever sexually want in a woman which (although they´d never admit it) means - in their world of division - that they have to have quite a bit of the "whore"-aspect in them. But on the other hand, they of course have to be godly and pure and maternal. It is nearly impossible to not fail in one way or the other.

JB and Michelle were able to find a pretty well working solution to this really tricky problem, due to the fact that Michelle was not raised fundie. Her "mowing the lawn in a bikini"-past still does a lot towards providing her with a "slutty aura", thereby keeping JB turned on even after so many years of marriage. And the memory is kept alive by incidents like the one on the golf course where JB treats her like a slut - not only in front of her daughter but also in front of the whole tv audience. That´s why I think it is possible (not certain, but possible) that JB has actually succeeded in staying physically faithful to Michelle - which means a lot considering that he is sexually obviously (excuse the expression but I think it fits here perfectly) pretty fucked up. (I say "physically faithful" because I am sure he has had his share of looking at porn and because he has obviously very unclear emotional boundaries as far as some of his elder daughters are concerned.)

All this means that while the "holy mother-whore"-dichotomy is strong in the family, it´s not (and cannot be) Michelle who keeps the "holy mother"-position occupied. In the symbolic order of the family, it´s Jana who has that role and that´s imho why everybody, Jana herself included, subconsciously finds it extremely difficult to imagine her involved in an intimate relationship.

So Jana is the perpetual virgin and her sisters have a oedipus complex.

[MoonFace]

Did anyone else see this take off on the Duggars?

It played right after the showing of JB humping MEchelle at mini golf

[MatthewDuggar]

Did anyone else see this take off on the Duggars?

It played right after the showing of JB humping MEchelle at mini golf

It's been out there for several years. Hilarious. New posters may love it!

[MarblesMom]

It's been out there for several years. Hilarious. New posters may love it!

Oh. My. Word. Another rabbit hole of videos to watch! First one was pretty good! :lol:

[DarkAnts]

Oh. My. Word. Another rabbit hole of videos to watch! First one was pretty good! :lol:

my favorites are the double date and wedding dress shopping episodes.

[Rajah061014]

Did anyone else see this take off on the Duggars?

It played right after the showing of JB humping MEchelle at mini golf

O.M.G.

This is amazing. How have I not had this in my life prior to today? God I am so happy right now.

[Buzzard]

My favorite episode is when they're looking for a kid that doesnt exist.

Why, oh WHY didnt they continue this series!?!?!

[QuestioningQuivers]

HOW have I not seen this b :cracking-up: :cracking-up: :cracking-up: :cracking-up: efore!!!

[ClaraOswin]

I have only watched 1 or 2 episodes of Kid Farm a while back. I think I need to watch all of them. I remember one I saw talked about the oldest kid 'courting.' It was great.

[inabauers]

It's been out there for several years. Hilarious. New posters may love it!

I've been lurking for a little while before Joshley Madison, never watched the Duggars but I learned about them and they fascinated me.... for all the wrong reasons.

That said, this was hysterical! I love the "OVULATION" right on her calendar. :lol:

[Fundie Bunny]

I've been lurking for a little while before Joshley Madison, never watched the Duggars but I learned about them and they fascinated me.... for all the wrong reasons.

That said, this was hysterical! I love the "OVULATION" right on her calendar. :lol:

I love their version of Anna, and poor bolivia wich weirdly looks better written than jinger...

[Special friend]

We are not supposed to speculate about possible victims (and not just of Josh) but I think it is OK to note that JB's attitude to his daughters includes seeing them as sex objects.

Really, you think that JB sees his own daughters as "sex objects"? Based on what, exactly? Please provide scenes or dialogues / situation that you base this claim on. Especially since you go on to explain that Jana is somehow viewed as the " holy mother". Does JB view her as a sex object, as well? Or just his other daughters?

Personally, I never got the impression *at all* that JB sees his daughters as "sex objects". On the contrary, I always got the impression that he saw them as Daddy's little girls,no matter how old they were. So, totally normal for a dad. :-)

The accusation that a father somehow sees his own daughters as " sex objects" totally without any proof or explanation is pretty offensive, IMO. There is plenty to criticize about this family without resorting to making up totally unfounded and offensive claims. Just my opinion.

[missegeno]

I may be wrong, but how I understood the other poster's words was that JB has this disturbing focused on his daughters' sexual status as pure virgins to be sold off to the most faithful bidder who will endeavor to impregnate them at every possible moment. Even though he is not the one hoping to dip his cock into them (from my impression, at least), it has long seemed to me that he views them as sex objects. The obsession with purity is how they maintain their highest value, and when a new owner, er, I mean headship takes over, they are to be had sex with at every little urge that this new headship feels. He brings up this eventuality constantly. The golf course incident was him pointing out what is to come for Ben. When Jill got married, he talked a lot about baby making in addition to talking about babies. It does seem that he sees their value as being based in their purity and sexual availability to their husbands. In that way, I would agree that he views his daughters as sex objects. They are still his little girls, yes, but also sexual objects that he can use to increase his progeny.

"Normal fathers" tend not to think or speak in as much detail about their daughters' sex lives.

[EmCatlyn]

Really, you think that JB sees his own daughters as "sex objects"? Based on what, exactly? Please provide scenes or dialogues / situation that you base this claim on. Especially since you go on to explain that Jana is somehow viewed as the " holy mother". Does JB view her as a sex object, as well? Or just his other daughters?

Personally, I never got the impression *at all* that JB sees his daughters as "sex objects". On the contrary, I always got the impression that he saw them as Daddy's little girls,no matter how old they were. So, totally normal for a dad. :-)

The accusation that a father somehow sees his own daughters as " sex objects" totally without any proof or explanation is pretty offensive, IMO. There is plenty to criticize about this family without resorting to making up totally unfounded and offensive claims. Just my opinion.

Let me clarify: First, the idea of Jana as virgin mother was not mine but I thought it makes sense and fits with the weird attitude towards sexuality in this family. Second, there are many ways in which a person may be seen as a "sex object." I think that JB's hyper-obsession with sexual "purity" is a form of objectivization. He sees women (including his own daughters) as "those who stir up desire" and who must dress and behave in certain ways so as not to "defraud" men. Third, the post you are quoting from was in response to post from "livingthelight" stating

"REALLY starting to wonder what else they've been exposed to when the cameras aren't rolling. And possibly what they've been forced to do. And I'm not talking about Josh."

I was pointing out that the way JB sees his daughters (the way he sees all women except possibly his mother) is in terms of their sexuality. This does not mean that he abuses them. (I have no information or opinio on the subject of sexual molestation by anyone but Josh.) What it means is that JB sees his daughters in terms of their role in a sexual exchange. (Men desire women. Fathers give their daughters to other men to satisfy desire and create social bonds among men. A married woman must submit sexually to her husband, so to give a daughter in marriage is to give the son-in-law sexual access to the daughter.)

All this concern about even little girls defrauding men if not dressed modestly, all this preoccupation with side hugs and so forth suggest to me a focus on females as sexual objects. Furthermore, a man for whom his daughter will always be "his little girl" does not behave in a sexually explicit way in front of her and her boyfriend and ask "does this turn you on?"

Lastly, though he may act like the indulgent, doting father, JB allowed Josh to molest his sisters. He put Josh ahead of the girls' well-being. He did not protect them. I don't pretend to understand this family, but JB's attitude towards his daughters is clearly as screwed up as anything else.

ETA quote from livingthelight and edited a second time because the formatting of that quote didn't work, so I changed to a conventional quote.

[St.Clara]

Have you by any chance studied anthropology? That text = EVERYTHING! :clap:

No, philosophy, actually. But I happen to be very interested in the interdependence between social/cultural conditions on one hand and the thinking/feeling/behaviour of individuals on the other. And I hardly ever stop thinking about things from this perspective, it´s more or less a 24/7 thing. :wink-kitty:

Thank you very much for your kind words!

ETA: I absolutely agree with Emmalyn`s explanation re: Jim Bob´s way of viewing his daughters and women in general. Brilliantly put.

[Drala]

They are still his little girls, yes, but also sexual objects that he can use to increase his progeny.

I agree. JB views his daughters as potential breeders who will extend his patriarchal legacy. Their desirability as breeders is based on the condition of the hymen, a body part of sexual significance. This is objectification of his daughters as sex objects for future sons (in law).

[LovelyLuna]

****Let me start of by saying I am NOT saying I feel this represents the family dynamic of the Duggars or any other RL family.****

I have read literature about daughters living with an alcoholic parent. In some cases when a SAHD takes on the motherly roles of cleaning and rearing, they then become victims of incest because the father sees them in a spousal role. I was fucking horrified when I read it, but when I thought about it It makes sense in a twisted way. when you take a daughter and force her to fill her mothers shoes it becomes easy or quasi normal for predators to to take advantage. Again I am NOT saying that this is happening to anyone we talk about, just putting it out there that it dose happen.

I think JB spend WAY to much time thinking and talking about his daughters hymens and sex life. :disgust:

[St.Clara]

So Jana is the perpetual virgin and her sisters have a oedipus complex.

If this happens to be your personal opinion that´s fine with me.

If it is however meant as sort of a summary of my post it is far from accurate. You may notice that I have not said anything at all about what the Duggar daughters from Jill downward may feel or think, individually. I´d like to also mention that while I recognize Freud´s significance to the history of science, I cannot help finding the fact that he betrayed the trust of those of his clients who were victims of sexual abuse, by brushing their stories aside as mere wishful fantasies, extremely dislikable, to put it mildly.

As far as Jana is concerned, I´d like to clarify that while I do think that the family pattern I have described in my post impacts her in a certain way I still do not pretend to know how she chooses (or will choose in the future) to deal with said pattern. She is expected to fulfill a certain role, and as far as is visible, fulfills it. But she „is“ not that role. Even though her parents did their utmost to make her forget it, Jana is a real, living, breathing human being. And the beauty of real, living, breathing human beings is that you can never be quite sure what they will do. :wink-kitty:

Who knows, maybe three months hence Jana will have trouble with one of her front teeth that will require constant treatment - and will end up making us all here very happy by eloping with her atheist dentist... :lol:

Do I think such a scenario probable? - No, unfortunately not.

Do I think it at all possible? - Hell, yes! :eleventy:

[ClaraOswin]

I may be wrong, but how I understood the other poster's words was that JB has this disturbing focused on his daughters' sexual status as pure virgins to be sold off to the most faithful bidder who will endeavor to impregnate them at every possible moment. Even though he is not the one hoping to dip his cock into them (from my impression, at least), it has long seemed to me that he views them as sex objects. The obsession with purity is how they maintain their highest value, and when a new owner, er, I mean headship takes over, they are to be had sex with at every little urge that this new headship feels. He brings up this eventuality constantly. The golf course incident was him pointing out what is to come for Ben. When Jill got married, he talked a lot about baby making in addition to talking about babies. It does seem that he sees their value as being based in their purity and sexual availability to their husbands. In that way, I would agree that he views his daughters as sex objects. They are still his little girls, yes, but also sexual objects that he can use to increase his progeny.

"Normal fathers" tend not to think or speak in as much detail about their daughters' sex lives.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

One small example of JB and his creepiness about his daughter's sex life (or eventual sex life)...

There is an episode before Jill and Derick got married where they are walking around the Stoney Brook house with JB and Michelle. When they get to the master bedroom, JB's mind obviously went right to his daughter's future sex life as he made a comment about the room being fit for a king and queen....and wouldn't it be great if in a few months we get the call about a grandchild. So yeah...he goes into their future bedroom and his mind when straight to sex. Most fathers would rather not even let their mind go there at all.

[Special friend]

Let me clarify: First, the idea of Jana as virgin mother was not mine but I thought it makes sense and fits with the weird attitude towards sexuality in this family. Second, there are many ways in which a person may be seen as a "sex object." I think that JB's hyper-obsession with sexual "purity" is a form of objectivization. He sees women (including his own daughters) as "those who stir up desire" and who must dress and behave in certain ways so as not to "defraud" men. Third, the post you are quoting from was in response to post from "livingthelight" stating

"REALLY starting to wonder what else they've been exposed to when the cameras aren't rolling. And possibly what they've been forced to do. And I'm not talking about Josh."

I was pointing out that the way JB sees his daughters (the way he sees all women except possibly his mother) is in terms of their sexuality. This does not mean that he abuses them. (I have no information or opinio on the subject of sexual molestation by anyone but Josh.) What it means is that JB sees his daughters in terms of their role in a sexual exchange. (Men desire women. Fathers give their daughters to other men to satisfy desire and create social bonds among men. A married woman must submit sexually to her husband, so to give a daughter in marriage is to give the son-in-law sexual access to the daughter.)

All this concern about even little girls defrauding men if not dressed modestly, all this preoccupation with side hugs and so forth suggest to me a focus on females as sexual objects. Furthermore, a man for whom his daughter will always be "his little girl" does not behave in a sexually explicit way in front of her and her boyfriend and ask "does this turn you on?"

Lastly, though he may act like the indulgent, doting father, JB allowed Josh to molest his sisters. He put Josh ahead of the girls' well-being. He did not protect them. I don't pretend to understand this family, but JB's attitude towards his daughters is clearly as screwed up as anything else.

ETA quote from livingthelight and edited a second time because the formatting of that quote didn't work, so I changed to a conventional quote.

Oh, okay. I guess I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

Yes, that makes a certain sense, I guess. I still don't think he sees them as "sex objects" more than he sees them as his little girls, but I do agree that he has a really weird focus on sexualty in general. And yes, that does seem to include his daughters - something that most fathers would not nessessarily think about (or at least not say out loud).

I really appreciate your clarification!

[Rescinded and Mended]

The Duggar parents have seriously creepy issues with boundaries in general.

I still wanna know which of those two brain trusts decided it was a good idea, or even appropriate, to sit their children down in front of a TV screen and film their reactions as they watched old episodes of the show as their mother gave birth to them. Jackson looked genuinely shell-shocked as his brothers asked him how he felt about watching his own birth. He was genuinely at a loss for words.

I have never understood why both Duggar parents see no problem crossing sexual boundaries with their children in really inappropriate ways.

ETA: Maybe "sexual" isn't necessarily the right word here. It's a boundary line that has been crossed for sure, but it's childbirth...is there a better word for it? Maybe it should just be "boundaries." Sorry, I've had a long day and my brain is not working so well right now.

[J.O.Y.nomore]

The Duggar parents have seriously creepy issues with boundaries in general.

I still wanna know which of those two brain trusts decided it was a good idea, or even appropriate, to sit their children down in front of a TV screen and film their reactions as they watched old episodes of the show as their mother gave birth to them. Jackson looked genuinely shell-shocked as his brothers asked him how he felt about watching his own birth. He was genuinely at a loss for words.

What episode was that?