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Apostolic Clerk Disobeys SCOTUS, Denies Gay Marriage License


FundieFarmer

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So if someone had planned a huge expensive wedding that because of her fuckery had to be cancelled, and there were all the cancellation charges for the venue, caterers, flowers, etc - could they sue her for financial loss?

in my state, yes that is correct.

I finally found some information on KY marriage licenses. KY rules are not the same as my state. I found this from the Jefferson Co website. Rowan county (where this clerk is from) does not give this information on their website.

Q: Where Are

Marriage Licenses Issued?

A: The parties may go to any county in Kentucky to get a marriage license as long as both are 18 years of age or older. Marriage licenses may be used in any Kentucky county and cannot be used anywhere but in Kentucky. Both must be present to obtain a license.

So in KY the couple can get a license from another county and continue on with their day. That would suck if you live in the county seat and then had to drive a long way to get to another county clerk to get your license but at least you wouldn't have to cancel.

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As an elected official, can she be obliged to take a leave of absence until the controversy is resolved? She is denying all residents of her county their rights to a marriage license. I am not a US citizen, and don't understand the niceties of the law in Kentucky, but surely she is breaking her oath of office.

If by leave of absence, you mean jail, yes.

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This lady is both stealing (drawing a paycheck for a job she is not performing) and lying (her job is to certify that a couple is legally eligible to marry under state law, and she is claiming they are not even if they are) and I'm pretty sure in the Bible both of those things are frowned upon...

As is her continuing adultery. God may have forgiven her for her divorces, but she is still committing adultery every day that her first three husbands remain alive. She needs to leave her husband and live a celibate life in a church basement somewhere.

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What a shame that Josh had to "resign" from the FRC. He could be leading a rally on the Rowan courthouse steps for this frumpalicious martyr this very minute!

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What a shame that Josh had to "resign" from the FRC. He could be leading a rally on the Rowan courthouse steps for this frumpalicious martyr this very minute!

Yes, Joshie could be sidehugging Our Blessed Lady of Kentucky Frump right now.

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Her refusal to deny licenses should actually be a nonissue if I am reading the Kentucky statute correctly. It says the follwing:

402.240 County judge/executive to issue license in absence of clerk.

In the absence of the county clerk, or during a vacancy in the office, the county judge/executive may issue the license and, in so doing, he shall perform the duties and incur all the responsibilities of the clerk. The county judge/executive shall return a memorandum thereof to the clerk, and the memorandum shall be recorded as if the license had been issued by the clerk.

Effective: October 1, 1942

History: Recodified 1942 Ky. Acts ch. 208, sec. 1, effective October 1, 1942, from Ky. Stat. sec. 2113

Is Kentucky trying to make this an even bigger dickwad show than it already is?

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Her refusal to deny licenses should actually be a nonissue if I am reading the Kentucky statute correctly. It says the follwing:

402.240 County judge/executive to issue license in absence of clerk.

In the absence of the county clerk, or during a vacancy in the office, the county judge/executive may issue the license and, in so doing, he shall perform the duties and incur all the responsibilities of the clerk. The county judge/executive shall return a memorandum thereof to the clerk, and the memorandum shall be recorded as if the license had been issued by the clerk.

Effective: October 1, 1942

History: Recodified 1942 Ky. Acts ch. 208, sec. 1, effective October 1, 1942, from Ky. Stat. sec. 2113

Is Kentucky trying to make this an even bigger dickwad show than it already is?

Uh, I know you are a Degreed Legal Professional TM and all, but how exactly is the clerk absent? She's there and frumping very loudly.

Now, she will be absent when she is in jail.

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I think they may have some work to do on this statute now. Of course in my humble opinion this statute is kind of WTF anyway.

402.080 Marriage license required -- Who may issue.

No marriage shall be solemnized without a license therefor. The license shall be issued by the clerk of the county in which the female resides at the time, unless the female is eighteen (18) years of age or over or a widow, and the license is issued on her application in person or by writing signed by her, in which case it may be issued by any county clerk.

Effective: July 13, 1984

History: Amended 1984 Ky. Acts ch. 279, sec. 1, effective July 13, 1984. -- Amended 1980 Ky. Acts ch. 74, sec. 1, effective July 15, 1980. -- Amended 1978 Ky. Acts ch. 384, sec. 518, effective June 17, 1978. -- Amended 1968 Ky. Acts ch. 100, sec. 14. -- Amended 1948 Ky. Acts ch. 42, sec. 1. -- Recodified 1942 Ky. Acts ch. 208, sec. 1, effective October 1, 1942, from Ky. Stat. sec. 2105.

Maybe it's just because in NH you can walk into any Town Clerks office and get a license which is good for 90 days! Kentucky's license is good only for a stingy 30 days. We get a lot of out of staters, otherwise known as folks from away, because we are very close to two other states. We also have evening hours 2 days a week so we are "wicked convenient". The couple can get married in the White Mountains which are just this side of East Bumfuk, but get their license three hours south. You're Welcome!!!!!11!!!!!!

For those interested in other RSA's in Kentucky here is the government link:

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Statutes/chapter.aspx?id=39205

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Uh, I know you are a Degreed Legal Professional TM and all, but how exactly is the clerk absent? She's there and frumping very loudly.

Now, she will be absent when she is in jail.

Holy Crap! I AM a Degreed Law Professional! Thanks for letting me know. I was posting as an amateur, but now I don't even need to reply to your pathetic question. Be silent and learn grasshopper.* *This is sarcasm. Or a pathetic attempt at humor. I hadn't noticed my new status until Idolatry pointed it out. :dance:

Anyway it applies because she is absent or unavailable for marriage licenses. If she is unavailable to issue them it falls to the County Judge. Of course there is no explanation that I have seen as to why the Deputy Town Clerk is not issuing them since DTCs are not elected as far as I know. I understand he is this woman's son, but she does not employ him, the county does. Maybe they fired him already Yeah, right.

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Sorry for the wall o posts. I will now try to put everything in one last blob.

This will need some attention ASAP:

402.040 Marriage in another state.

(1) If any resident of this state marries in another state, the marriage shall be valid here if valid in the state where solemnized, unless the marriage is against Kentucky public policy.

(2) A marriage between members of the same sex is against Kentucky public policy and shall be subject to the prohibitions established in KRS 402.045.

Effective: July 15, 1998

History: Amended 1998 Ky. Acts ch. 258, sec. 3, effective July 15, 1998. -- Recodified 1942 Ky. Acts ch. 208, sec. 1, effective October 1, 1942, from Ky. Stat. sec. 2101.

This one will have to be repealed:

402.045 Same-sex marriage in another jurisdiction void and unenforceable.

(1) A marriage between members of the same sex which occurs in another jurisdiction shall be void in Kentucky.

(2) Any rights granted by virtue of the marriage, or its termination, shall be unenforceable in Kentucky courts.

Effective: July 15, 1998

History: Created 1998 Ky. Acts ch. 258, sec. 1, effective July 15, 1998.

And of course the basis for all their RSA's regarding marriage:

402.005 Definition of marriage.

As used and recognized in the law of the Commonwealth, "marriage" refers only to the civil status, condition, or relation of one (1) man and one (1) woman united in law for life, for the discharge to each other and the community of the duties legally incumbent upon those whose association is founded on the distinction of sex.

Effective: July 15, 1998

History: Created 1998 Ky. Acts ch. 258, sec. 4, effective July 15, 1998.

Those boys in the Kentucky legislature might just have to give up their Winter Solstice Break. They have a lot of work to do. I suggest repealing the entire 402 Chapter and taking a Mulligan.

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Anyway it applies because she is absent or unavailable for marriage licenses. If she is unavailable to issue them it falls to the County Judge. Of course there is no explanation that I have seen as to why the Deputy Town Clerk is not issuing them since DTCs are not elected as far as I know. I understand he is this woman's son, but she does not employ him, the county does. Maybe they fired him already Yeah, right.

No, it does not apply. The county judge cannot issue them when she is available and she's always been available, just unwilling. The judge was asked to by one couple (at least) and when he consulted with the county attorney he was told (correctly per all my friends in government law) that he cannot issue them just because she refuses to.

Also, as I said before, there is no law against her employing her son in Kentucky. I wish there were but there simply is not.

[if it's not obvious yet, I do live in the state. I have also spent my entire career at various levels of government--state, city and county. A close friend is a county clerk in a different county. These are my bona fides on this topic. :D ]

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No, it does not apply. The county judge cannot issue them when she is available and she's always been available, just unwilling. The judge was asked to by one couple (at least) and when he consulted with the county attorney he was told (correctly per all my friends in government law) that he cannot issue them just because she refuses to.

Also, as I said before, there is no law against her employing her son in Kentucky. I wish there were but there simply is not.

[if it's not obvious yet, I do live in the state. I have also spent my entire career at various levels of government--state, city and county. A close friend is a county clerk in a different county. These are my bona fides on this topic. :D ]

WTF does her son have to do with it? Plenty of us on Free Jinger have crazy fundie parents and we're just normal people. That's why we're here.

Just because my mom wears a frumper and scowls at women in tank tops doesn't mean no one should hire me WTF.

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WTF does her son have to do with it? Plenty of us on Free Jinger have crazy fundie parents and we're just normal people. That's why we're here.

Just because my mom wears a frumper and scowls at women in tank tops doesn't mean no one should hire me WTF.

Her son has been discussed previously in the thread because he works for his mom (as did she when her mom was county clerk). This has nothing to do with her religion but with nepotism which is illegal in many states, cities and counties.

It is not legal in my county for a government officials to hire her own child, in Rowan there is no such prohibition.

If you don't have a problem with government officials hiring their families, good for you. Others do see it as unethical at best.

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Her son has been discussed previously in the thread because he works for his mom (as did she when her mom was county clerk). This has nothing to do with her religion but with nepotism which is illegal in many states, cities and counties.

It is not legal in my county for a government officials to hire her own child, in Rowan there is no such prohibition.

If you don't have a problem with government officials hiring their families, good for you. Others do see it as unethical at best.

Uh, it was the second result in a Google search that Kentucky doesn't allow public officials to directly supervise family members or get them hired. I mean I know you're from Kentucky, but surely you could have gotten that far. So, again, WTF are you talking about?

And WTF does her son have to do with this?

(government document) http://ethics.ky.gov/SiteCollectionDocu ... sGuide.pdf

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I should get remarried in Kentucky and have her issue me a license. Then to come back and show her that it was a pagan ceremony. But hey! I married a man! Would like to see her head roll on that one. :wink-kitty:

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I should get remarried in Kentucky and have her issue me a license. Then to come back and show her that it was a pagan ceremony. But hey! I married a man! Would like to see her head roll on that one. :wink-kitty:

She's not issuing any marriage licenses right now. Gay or straight.

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I hope she gets a huge fine, impeachment, and loses her job. I don't want her to go to jail. I want her to suffer, without being a martyr. If she gets a book deal, I want all of that income to go to her fine.

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What the ever loving fuck?

These hateful, bigoted "Christians" have nothing better to fight for/die on the hill for than 2 same gendered people committing their lives to each other?

I can only wish this issue was the worst, most stressful thing in my life.

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Doug Wilson weighs in

http ://dougwils.com/

"The point here is not just private conscience. The right to liberty of conscience is at play with florists, bakers, and so on. But Kim Davis is not just keeping herself from sinning, she is preventing Rowan County from sinning. That is part of her job."

Saving the whole county from sin? How does that work?

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Doug Wilson weighs in

http ://dougwils.com/

"The point here is not just private conscience. The right to liberty of conscience is at play with florists, bakers, and so on. But Kim Davis is not just keeping herself from sinning, she is preventing Rowan County from sinning. That is part of her job."

Saving the whole county from sin? How does that work?

It's going to be a LONG NIGHT if her job is to prevent sinning in the county.

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I would imagine the couple could go over to Fleming County or down the interstate to...shoot can't remember the next count West headed towards Lexington.

But I expect at this point it's a matter of principle. No county clerk has the right to refuse to follow the law of the land!

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Uh, it was the second result in a Google search that Kentucky doesn't allow public officials to directly supervise family members or get them hired. I mean I know you're from Kentucky, but surely you could have gotten that far. So, again, WTF are you talking about?

And WTF does her son have to do with this?

(government document) http://ethics.ky.gov/SiteCollectionDocu ... sGuide.pdf

Davis served as her mother's deputy for 27 years before she was elected as a Democrat to succeed her in November. Davis' own son is one of the six deputy clerks also summoned to appear before Bunning Thursday at the federal court in Ashland.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/kentucky-cl ... authority/

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Uh, it was the second result in a Google search that Kentucky doesn't allow public officials to directly supervise family members or get them hired. I mean I know you're from Kentucky, but surely you could have gotten that far. So, again, WTF are you talking about?

And WTF does her son have to do with this?

(government document) http://ethics.ky.gov/SiteCollectionDocu ... sGuide.pdf

I don't have to Google when I've actually taught ethics training. The guide you linked is for state executive branch employees. County clerks are *not* executive branch employees and are not subject to these rules.

In addition, ethics charges were brought several years ago against many county elected officials for nepotism under KRS 11A.020 (the only state law that could possibly be construed to bar her from hiring her son). The most recent opinion from the state Court of Appeals on that case is 2013-CA-000524-MR which clearly states the direct hiring of family members is permissible because financial gain for family members does not include compensation for work performed.

Please do not assume a Google result is correct because you don't know the structure of government. And please do not assume my state of residency has anything to do with my intelligence.

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Let's say a man and a woman come in for a marriage license and one of them is transgender. Would that be OK or does she need to personally inspect the genitals of everyone who wants to get married in Rowan County, just to make sure everything is kosher? Please let us know what God tells you, Kim.

I bet she was a hoot before 2011! I'm still trying to figure out she had twins with her 3rd husband before she married her second husband. I think I need a diagram.

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Let's say a man and a woman come in for a marriage license and one of them is transgender. Would that be OK or does she need to personally inspect the genitals of everyone who wants to get married in Rowan County, just to make sure everything is kosher? Please let us know what God tells you, Kim.

I bet she was a hoot before 2011! I'm still trying to figure out she had twins with her 3rd husband before she married her second husband. I think I need a diagram.

Already happened in her county and she did issue a marriage license. The transgendered person had the birth certificate listing them as female, he was marrying a woman, and the office didn't even check birth certificates.

Funny that you used that example because that couple went public over the weekend.

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