Two sisters sentenced to be raped in India

[Grimalkin]

The U.S. is far from perfect, but one thing India has that the United States does not are unelected town councils that have the power to impose such punishments. We also don't have a caste system, although we all know that we do have different classes and certain classes are treated much better than other groups of people.

I don't care if my opinion is "fuck you" worthy or not, but India does have a serious problem with the way women are viewed and treated and it's way way worse than the inequality and every day difficulties women in the United States face. At least if my brother ran off with a married woman from the upper classes, I would have no fear that some group of old disgusting morally corrupt men would have the ability and power to sentence me to be raped. If you have information that this sort of shit happens in the United States, with no legal recourse, I am willing to revise my opinion.

Just as I boycott Wal-Mart because I disagree with their corporate greed and the way they treat their employees, I factor in how governments treat their people when I decide whether I want to visit one particular country over another.

I don't think anybody thinks this story represents all of India, And I don't think anybody feels there is nothing great about India, but I do think India is worse. I would much rather be a poor female in the United stated than a poor female in India. There have been several discussions in wide world of snark on the plight of women in India.

I don't think it is necessary to tell someone fuck you because you do not like their opinion.

[anjulibai]

Y'all are aware the fuck you was specific, and came from being told "Fuck You", right?

[terranova]

Anjulibai, I'm sorry, I thought you were saying "shit happens" in regards to the girls being raped. Hence, the "fuck you". I retract that.

[jaelh]

Emmie, gram panchayat are legally recognised village councils. members are elected for period of five years. Khap panchayats - the type of body that handed down this order - have been declared illegal by the Supreme Court. They have no legal identity, and their rulings are not legally binding on anyone. They have no power - under law - to impose punishments on anyone. The "punishment", if carried out, would be an emphatically illegal act. As an aside: these councils are concentrated in northern india.

So let''s all be *really* clear about this - this is not an act of government. Police have been sent into the village to stop violence taking place. The girls are petitioning the Supreme Court to protect them. The Supreme Court has previously declared Khap panchayats punishments illegal.

The government is in fact working to prevent punitive rape from taking place. (with no small amount of help from a whole lotta international attention via Amnesty)

Just to be clear: Thus ordered, is horrific, monstrous, awful. There are many awful things that happen to women in India. Most people - rightly so - have a reflexive and visceral response to hearing about situations like these. We need to call out brutality and inhumanity. We also need to be very careful about how we do that. If we are going to assign blame, make sure we know where it should fall.

This is not a carte blanche apologetic for the Indian government; they fail at many things. It's very specific to this thread, and to what people are calling out.

Anyway. This is interesting:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-34111906

[VelociRapture]

I feel so torn in this debate - I kept liking comments and responses from both sides of the terranova/Anjulibai misunderstanding!

I understand both sides. This is not representative of the Indian people in general just like not all Americans love their guns with a fiery passion. At the same time, there are severe problems facing women of all castes in India. I think we can all acknowledge both as being true, while still being outraged that this is actually happening in 2015.

Moving on, I'm glad to see jaelh point out that the Indian Supreme Court has sided against these types of Councils and that police have moved into the village to prevent violence. I really hope they are able to protect them - this young woman and girl did nothing to deserve any of this.

What happens after the police leave though? Who is going to stop this punishment from being carried out or punish the people responsible? Will anyone be held accountable if these young girls are raped or will it be brushed under the rug? And if these girls are harmed in any way, what sort of services and assistance will they be offered - if any?

I think these are legitimate questions to ask and that it's fair to question what type of action the Indian Government will take to continue to ensure these girls are kept safe.

[Maggie Mae]

The "problem" with these village elder "kangaroo courts" is that the centralized government in India doesn't have the reach to enforce the laws in the more rural parts. Where this occurred was one, if the the, most remote part of the country. The government knows these courts exist, but are powerless to stop it.

We have some of the same issues in the US in regards to law creations - law enforcement. It took years before Brown v Board of Ed was fully enforced. We still that that crazy lady somewhere hot and sticky (Alabama? Kentucky? Mississippi?) refusing to hand out marriage licenses. And not to bring up Alaska/Hawaii again, but there are villages that DO have their own forms of justice and aren't necessarily enforcing US/Alaska/Hawaii legislation. I'm not saying that anyone here is sentencing women to be raped, but when the state police are really far away and another ethnicity, enforcement becomes tough. Especially when resources are limited. And there are cities with tons of people vs villages with 50 or so. It's just going to take time for India to get the rural village courts out.

[anjulibai]

Anjulibai, I'm sorry, I thought you were saying "shit happens" in regards to the girls being raped. Hence, the "fuck you". I retract that.

It's okay. I retract mine, too.

[Trynn]

It's possible the entire family will have to relocate in order to protect the girls.

[EmmieJ]

Emmie, gram panchayat are legally recognised village councils. members are elected for period of five years. Khap panchayats - the type of body that handed down this order - have been declared illegal by the Supreme Court. They have no legal identity, and their rulings are not legally binding on anyone. They have no power - under law - to impose punishments on anyone. The "punishment", if carried out, would be an emphatically illegal act. As an aside: these councils are concentrated in northern india.

So let''s all be *really* clear about this - this is not an act of government. Police have been sent into the village to stop violence taking place. The girls are petitioning the Supreme Court to protect them. The Supreme Court has previously declared Khap panchayats punishments illegal.

Thank you for the information, and I hope that between the police, humanitarian efforts, and any other help that can be provided to these girls and their family, that they can be relocated somewhere they will be safe. It is a horrifying story and I wish those responsible (the members of the Khap panchayats) would face criminal charges and be sentenced to jail time.

[Maggie Mae]

It's possible the entire family will have to relocate in order to protect the girls.

I believe they already have. That's why we are hearing about it - they fled to the nearest major city.

[EmmieJ]

...

We have some of the same issues in the US in regards to law creations - law enforcement. It took years before Brown v Board of Ed was fully enforced. We still that that crazy lady somewhere hot and sticky (Alabama? Kentucky? Mississippi?) refusing to hand out marriage licenses. And not to bring up Alaska/Hawaii again, but there are villages that DO have their own forms of justice and aren't necessarily enforcing US/Alaska/Hawaii legislation. I'm not saying that anyone here is sentencing women to be raped, but when the state police are really far away and another ethnicity, enforcement becomes tough. Especially when resources are limited. And there are cities with tons of people vs villages with 50 or so. It's just going to take time for India to get the rural village courts out.

That county clerk, now on her 4th marriage, is still refusing to issue marriage licenses to gay couples, but she and her entire department have been ordered to appear in court this Thursday. Some are speculating that the judge might ask if any of the other clerks are willing to issue marriage licenses to gay people and if any say Yes, order that they be allowed to do so. Still, I'd like to see this lady face some penalty for refusing to do the job she was elected to do.

/end thread jack.

[jaelh]

I think these are legitimate questions to ask and that it's fair to question what type of action the Indian Government will take to continue to ensure these girls are kept safe.

These are very legitimate questions.

I think it's worth remembering though that the capacity of the state in non-western countries is very different to what it is in the west. Maggie is right to point out the government doesn't have reach - though Maggie, this wasn't in a remote part of the country, it happened 40kms from Delhi! Though mind you - UP/the Cow belt are religiously the most conservative in the country, so in terms of social control, yes - this is beyond the government. I like your analogy, Maggie - the deep, deep bible belt, with a major dose of local IFB cult control going on. The state can intervene to some degree, in the end, but people can still chose to follow all the arsehole, monstrous practices they choose.

Re these girls; Veloci, given the international attention, chances are these girls will be safe. You get a worldwide Amnesty thread, your odds of the state making sur you don't get raped go through the roof. It's the other young women subject to local religious/clan punishment that's of much more concern. And that's where the incapacity of the state comes in.

As Maggie said - there are so many issues for enforcement in India.

Will/religious beliefs of police and legislators/the enormous cost of policing billions of people/the limited tax base with hundreds of millions of people living on less that $2 a day/the enormous cultural, linguistic and geographical diversity of India/extensive corruption/the power of the wealthy vis a vie the poor etc.. Even if will and belief were "perfect", there are so many other factors that make 'policing' India an enormous challenge. And this leads me to my next point...

Emmie - I don't know if the khap has actually broken any laws handing down the sentence. Freedom of association and all that. Maybe they have - in which case, yeah, sentences would be necessary. But you veer awfully into freedom of association/freedom of religion type arguments pretty quickly. This isn't an excuse or any such thing, just an observation that it gets really complex really quickly. These councils are considered by many people to be a desirable alternative to the formal court system, which has horrendous backlogs and is very expensive. Being able to get a quick, cheap judgement (albeit made under different rules) can have a lot of appeal. So yeah - I would hope so to. But I'm not holding my breath.

Until the state CAN offer accessible justice, local courts are likely going to have an important place in India. The only consolation I suppose is that there is always an appeal available to the formal court system. However, more so than in the west, formal systems of justice are so far outside the reach of most people, which one of the reason the informal courts continue (that, and they well preclude the state of India by hundreds of years)

Yes, the state can do things better (doesn't matter where you go, the state can do things better!) but, on this thread, I'm not sure *what* people would have had them do better, other than be the government of a rich country, not a poor one.

Again, not a general approval of the Indian government.

[justoneoftwo]

Emmie - I don't know if the khap has actually broken any laws handing down the sentence. Freedom of association and all that. Maybe they have - in which case, yeah, sentences would be necessary. But you veer awfully into freedom of association/freedom of religion type arguments pretty quickly. This isn't an excuse or any such thing, just an observation that it gets really complex really quickly. These councils are considered by many people to be a desirable alternative to the formal court system, which has horrendous backlogs and is very expensive. Being able to get a quick, cheap judgement (albeit made under different rules) can have a lot of appeal. So yeah - I would hope so to. But I'm not holding my breath.

.

I don't know about Indian law, or what type of freedom of association is allowed, but this sounds like conspiracy to rape to me. That would be a law they have broken and they should be prosecuted for it, as should any others who took part.

[Maggie Mae]

Weird that I thought it was super remote. I've even looked at a map. Maybe I was just confusing the political climate of the northwest region with geography. Oh well. Thanks for pointing that out!

I just get annoyed that people are thinking that ALL of India is evil, when this isn't even a legally sanctioned court. I don't know THAT much about India, but I do know some things.