Botkinettes' website has had a facelift!

[Columbia]

I think it is odd that the Duck Biologist hasn't denounced Doug as a false prophet. I had the impression that those two were quite competitive.

I've wondered if perhaps the two families have dirt on each other, and quietly parted company over that.

ETA:

*I* wonder if Dougie put the moves on one or both of the Botkin sisters, thus precipitating their decampment to Tennessee. I will always wonder what the Botkins knew, and when they knew it.

I have too, but I can't imagine DaddyBot standing for it. He would raise so much holy hell if anyone touched those daughters of his. We would have heard all about Dougie's indiscretions from the time he stole a candy bar as a five-year-old to the present day. It would have been awfully interesting.

[GenerationCedarchip]

So...does this mean they've denounced their opinions in So Much More? I found my copy of it (someone gave it to me while I was in high school or college), and toyed with reading it just to see how painful it is.

I wish I could find it, but they've said that they probably wouldn't express their opinions in SMM quite the same today, and that their views have evolved since then. I know I've seen this in church materials, but I thought it had been said publicly online, too.

[Sobeknofret]

I listened to a lecture by Victoria Botkin today on how to encourage your kids to love learning. It was a very interesting lecture, and I agreed with many of the things she had to say; I get the impression that she's a very warm and very kind woman, and I'd probably like her very much.

However, the lecture left me in no doubt- she's as deep in the kool-aid as Geoff is. If he's leading, she's following happily along with him. :roll:

[Janes Heir]

They base this on the old testament where if a woman is raped in the city, she may be stoned for not callingout thus proving she was a participant, but if she is raped in the countryside, she probably called out and was not heard....

Deuteronomy 22 23If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; 24Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

25But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die: 26But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter: 27For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her

This was a primary factor in helping me cease seeing the Bible as infallible. I think any woman who doesn't recognize this as wrong is lacking in empathy for other women and lacking in ability to imagine scenarios in which she may freeze up or otherwise find herself unwilling to "cry out... or resist". Anyone who takes these texts in the Bible as good ethical guidelines today is despicable.

[treemom]

I suspect otherwise. They left town and I wonder if they saw it coming... not specifically, but generally.

There has been other speculation, specifically in regards to the duck biologist's health

[DomWackTroll]

*I* wonder if Dougie put the moves on one or both of the Botkin sisters, thus precipitating their decampment to Tennessee. I will always wonder what the Botkins knew, and when they knew it.

Oh, I'm sure he would've tried, if the Botkin girls were ever "out from under the umbrella of their father's protection," but they weren't. Like, ever. Lourdes, on the other hand, was working at Doug and Beall's house, and thus "under the authority of another man," which of course is totally against everything VF taught.

[Cleopatra7]

Oh, I'm sure he would've tried, if the Botkin girls were ever "out from under the umbrella of their father's protection," but they weren't. Like, ever. Lourdes, on the other hand, was working at Doug and Beall's house, and thus "under the authority of another man," which of course is totally against everything VF taught.

But the entire vision put forth by VF assumed that there would be servants, or maybe even slaves, given how much this crowd loves the antebellum period. On the one hand, VF says that SAHD should be a universal thing for all women of all backgrounds. But at the same time, it's difficult for a single wife to run a big household by herself, which is why even middle class women had servants until relatively recently. I always got the impression that people like the Botkins and the Phillipses imagined themselves as Victorian ladies and gentlemen, which explains their love of flowery language, antebellum imagery, racist children's books (e.g., Elsie Dinsome or the Henty books), and the resurrected cult of domesticity on steroids.

However, the original cult of domesticity never stated that all women could aspire to be "real women"; women of color and poor women were excluded from being "real women," not just because of their inferior social position, but because they had to work away from their own homes to make the households of "real women" run smoothly. Hence, I think Lourdes was always pegged as hired help by the other VFers, and not the kind of girl who could really aspire to be a "beautiful maiden" like the Botkinettes, because of her class and race. If Lourdes wasn't the victim of covert and overt racism at some point, I would be surprised.

[ladyamylynn]

I think you're right re: racist attitudes towards Lourdes...

[PrairieGirl]

Oh, I'm sure he would've tried, if the Botkin girls were ever "out from under the umbrella of their father's protection," but they weren't. Like, ever. Lourdes, on the other hand, was working at Doug and Beall's house, and thus "under the authority of another man," which of course is totally against everything VF taught.

To me, Geoff the Fake Duck Biologist and the Botkin sons have always seemed fiercely protective of their daughters/sisters. Combined with Geoff's massively enormous ego, it would actually surprise me if Doug Phillips is a Rapist had ever put the moves on AS or E. As in, some great bodily harm may have come to DPIAR had he ever attempted anything with the Botkinettes.

[DomWackTroll]

I think you're right re: racist attitudes towards Lourdes...

Pocahantas was real purdy when you cleaned 'er up good.

UGH!!!!!! :angry-banghead:

[CloakNDagger]

I believe she was used, as were others at least from the modeling standpoint. On the other hand, would you prefer that a company like VF not have diversity in their public face? I mean they could have been the all white catalog, which they weren't.

[Palimpsest]

I believe she was used, as were others at least from the modeling standpoint. On the other hand, would you prefer that a company like VF not have diversity in their public face? I mean they could have been the all white catalog, which they weren't.

I think Doug and VF made great efforts to include diversity in their publicity materials. In a self-conscious manner that probably did not accurately represent their customer-base.

We have discussed before the racist books and videos VFI sold. Don Hart is high on my shit list.

Look, there is overt racism and DPIAT is not guilty of that AFAIK. I think he is too intelligent and cunning to exhibit that behavior. He may also genuinely believe that he "doesn't see color" and embraces everyone.

There are also subtle perhaps "unintentional" racist attitudes. I saw plenty of tokenism in VF materials and publicity. The Baucham family was frequently featured prominently as tokens. Lourdes was the "obvious" choice to be dressed as Pocahontas because of her complexion. She could have just as easily be dressed as a settler. Lourdes and her mother portraying Native Americans in Alone Yet Not Alone. Yes, I know that wasn't a VF production, but it's another example of the attitudes we see in VF.

AYNA is revisionist proselytizing stereotyping racism on the hoof. Can you not see that?

[ladyamylynn]

I believe she was used, as were others at least from the modeling standpoint. On the other hand, would you prefer that a company like VF not have diversity in their public face? I mean they could have been the all white catalog, which they weren't.

If the catalog in question is selling racist claptrap, then yes, I would prefer the models to be all white. It's gross to use people of color to prop up the perpetuation of racist stereotypes.

[CloakNDagger]

I think Doug and VF made great efforts to include diversity in their publicity materials. In a self-conscious manner that probably did not accurately represent their customer-base.

We have discussed before the racist books and videos VFI sold. Don Hart is high on my shit list.

Look, there is overt racism and DPIAT is not guilty of that AFAIK. I think he is too intelligent and cunning to exhibit that behavior. He may also genuinely believe that he "doesn't see color" and embraces everyone.

AYNA is revisionist proselytizing stereotyping racism on the hoof. Can you not see that?

I think you are spot on.

[CanadianMom]

I have to lol at the botkinettes. Both in glee and in sadness.

[nausicaa]

Pocahantas was real purdy when you cleaned 'er up good.

UGH!!!!!! :angry-banghead:

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't really get what's so terrible about this in particular. I have no doubt that DPIAR and Vision Forum had racist attitudes and used their few minority followers as tokens. However, at the end of her life, Pocahontas converted to Christianity, married John Rolfe, and moved to England. This is actually the only known portrait of her in her lifetime, at age 21 shortly before her death:

So she did wear clothes similar to the ones Lourdes is wearing (though probably not as fancy...But everything goes a few notches up in fabulosity when DPIAR is around).

And while I do believe that Lourdes probably faced bigotry within VF circles because of her ethnicity and background, picking Lourdes to be Pocahontas because of her complexion doesn't seem that wrong to me. Isn't that better than picking some blonde haired blue eyed girl to play her, thereby whitewashing history? I mean, film studios aren't going to hire Gwyneth Paltrow to play a Native American, they hire someone with a similar appearance, even if that person isn't the same ethnicity as the character he/she is playing.

[ladyamylynn]

It's gross because Doug Phillips et al. are projecting a sexually-tinged colonialist fantasy onto a vulnerable young woman of color who worked as an unpaid laborer in his household, who he was sexually abusing during the time frame that this photo was taken.

[CloakNDagger]

Or allegedly just before. Allegedly that is the time frame when it got started and he was trying hard to get her entangled.

[Palimpsest]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't really get what's so terrible about this in particular. I have no doubt that DPIAR and Vision Forum had racist attitudes and used their few minority followers as tokens. However, at the end of her life, Pocahontas converted to Christianity, married John Rolfe, and moved to England. This is actually the only known portrait of her in her lifetime, at age 21 shortly before her death:

So she did wear clothes similar to the ones Lourdes is wearing (though probably not as fancy...But everything goes a few notches up in fabulosity when DPIAR is around).

And while I do believe that Lourdes probably faced bigotry within VF circles because of her ethnicity and background, picking Lourdes to be Pocahontas because of her complexion doesn't seem that wrong to me. Isn't that better than picking some blonde haired blue eyed girl to play her, thereby whitewashing history? I mean, film studios aren't going to hire Gwyneth Paltrow to play a Native American, they hire someone with a similar appearance, even if that person isn't the same ethnicity as the character he/she is playing.

I agree with LadyAmylynn.

Also, to the bolded: these days! And it is always better to cast someone of the correct ethnicity. Just ask SAG and Equity. Example: Casting Ben Kingsley as Gandhi was extremely controversial and he is of Gujarati Indian heritage. You see rows over this all. the. time.

Whilst I don't think this necessarily happened in the Lourdes as Pocahontas example -- historically many people were blocked from "white" parts. Perhaps Lourdes would rather have played a settler, but was told she had to be Pocahontas?

A friend of my mother, a person of color, told me that she had never forgotten the hurt she felt at being cast as a shepherd in the Christmas pageant when she wanted to be an angel. We all know angels must have blond hair and blue eyes! :shock:

And on a historical note, while in England, Pocahontas probably wore clothes far more elaborate than the dress Lourdes is wearing. She was taken to England as a exhibit # 1 of the "noble savage successfully converted to Christianity." She was supposedly treated quite well but it can't have been pleasant to be examined like an animal at the zoo. I have always felt sorry for Pocahontas -- and not just because she died so young.

[DomWackTroll]

Pocahantas was a Native American and Lourdes is a Mexican-American, but to Doug-- and many of his colleagues and followers-- brown skin is brown skin so cast her as "the ethnic," whatever that might be.

[CloakNDagger]

Pocahantas was a Native American and Lourdes is a Mexican-American, but to Doug-- and many of his colleagues and followers-- brown skin is brown skin so cast her as "the ethnic," whatever that might be.

Not even. Lourdes' family is from Puerto Rico.

[Palimpsest]

Not even. Lourdes' family is from Puerto Rico.

Can she sing? She'd make a lovely Maria in West Side Story.

Another example of what I mean. And Natalie Wood was dubbed.

BTW, a correction to my post above. Correct casting for ethnicity is only important when ethnicity is an intrinsic part of the character. So by all means cast people of color in any role that suits their abilities. King Lear could have been black.

[FoxyMoxie]

Latino people and Native Americans don't magically become the same race even if they might share a skintone, wtf. Treating non-white people as a homogenous mass of interchangeable brown people is HUGELY RACIST. Glamorising the abduction of a Native American girl is HUGELY RACIST AND IMPERIALIST. Categorising Lourdes and others as the 'hired help' as others have put it so well is HUGELY RACIST. Racism can look 'nice'. Racism can look like you're just 'appreciating their culture'. Racism is not just the KKK and Ferguson.

[DomWackTroll]

Not even. Lourdes' family is from Puerto Rico.

Thanks for the correction, CnD, but... my argument still stands.

[formergothardite]

From what I remember Pocahontas' tribe had an entirely different story than the one that got passed down in history by white people. In their version of events she is kidnapped and basically forced to marry John Rolfe and convert to Christianity. She probably did wear clothes like that, but it might be debatable if she was doing it by choice.

http://www.powhatan.org/pocc.html