Botkinettes' website has had a facelift!

[CloakNDagger]

(1) Latino people and Native Americans don't magically become the same race even if they might share a skintone, wtf. (2)Treating non-white people as a homogenous mass of interchangeable brown people is HUGELY RACIST. (3)Glamorising the abduction of a Native American girl is HUGELY RACIST AND IMPERIALIST. (4)Categorising Lourdes and others as the 'hired help' as others have put it so well is HUGELY RACIST. Racism can look 'nice'. Racism can look like you're just 'appreciating their culture'. Racism is not just the KKK and Ferguson.

1. Yeah.

2. Agreed

3. Agreed, although they made very little discussion of the abduction and much of the "conversion" of which I have to believe it was forced...

4. Lourdes wasn't the only girl that was "hired help." I can think of other girls who served that role at different times. That would make it harder for that aspect to be considered racist, since those girls were white. That said, I believe her family's situation was such that she was pre-disposed to see him as the leader who's motives must be pure.

[CloakNDagger]

Thanks for the correction, CnD, but... my argument still stands.

Oh, I agree. I was just saying that it's even further removed than Mexican-American / Native American.

[Palimpsest]

From what I remember Pocahontas' tribe had an entirely different story than the one that got passed down in history by white people. In their version of events she is kidnapped and basically forced to marry John Rolfe and convert to Christianity. She probably did wear clothes like that, but it might be debatable if she was doing it by choice.

http://www.powhatan.org/pocc.html

Yup. I was restraining myself above to try to stay on topic. The white man's Pocahontas revisionist history is far from accurate. Pocahontas suffered.

[CloakNDagger]

At the same event (and another, I think) L was also cast as Princess Kaʻiulani.

[CyborgKin]

Does anyone else think that the blog post titles 'The History of Womanhood That Feminists Don’t Want You to Know' and 'What Every Christian Girl Can Learn From Kate' look just like the typical attention-grabbing headlines you see on news sites all around the internet? Or is that just me being cynical?

Also, seeing those two posts just five days apart, followed by almost a month of silence (and following nearly a year of silence), makes me wonder. Were they planning to put up a post every week? Or perhaps were the two posts an attempt to ensure people noticed that their site had moved and was alive? I wonder whether they ran out of ideas, or if they're just too busy (cleaning bathrooms?) to keep a regular schedule.

Actually, there posting history has always been sporadic, usually limited to whenever they had something to publicise/advertise. That's not really the way to get a good reader base. You have to post content on a fairly regular schedule if you want people to keep coming back for more. Otherwise they'll just lose interest.

Well at least this new site doesn't have a sidebar like to (now an online gambling site) Vision Forum, like the old one did. :P

[treemom]

I just love that FJ will not let the Robotkins get away with just quietly distancing themselves for the fact they held up the relationship between Lourdes and the Phillips family as godly and good in Return of the Daughters.

[DomWackTroll]

Does anyone else think that the blog post titles 'The History of Womanhood That Feminists Don’t Want You to Know' and 'What Every Christian Girl Can Learn From Kate' look just like the typical attention-grabbing headlines you see on news sites all around the internet? Or is that just me being cynical?

Also, seeing those two posts just five days apart, followed by almost a month of silence (and following nearly a year of silence), makes me wonder. Were they planning to put up a post every week? Or perhaps were the two posts an attempt to ensure people noticed that their site had moved and was alive? I wonder whether they ran out of ideas, or if they're just too busy (cleaning bathrooms?) to keep a regular schedule.

Actually, there posting history has always been sporadic, usually limited to whenever they had something to publicise/advertise. That's not really the way to get a good reader base. You have to post content on a fairly regular schedule if you want people to keep coming back for more. Otherwise they'll just lose interest.

Well at least this new site doesn't have a sidebar like to (now an online gambling site) Vision Forum, like the old one did. :P

This is one thing that has always puzzled me about them. They don't seem to understand how to use social media and their blog posts are so few and far between. They're so guarded that way, even though they must know it will hurt their business.

[nausicaa]

It's gross because Doug Phillips et al. are projecting a sexually-tinged colonialist fantasy onto a vulnerable young woman of color who worked as an unpaid laborer in his household, who he was sexually abusing during the time frame that this photo was taken.

Oh God, I wasn't at all trying to excuse the sexual abuse going on at the time. It's disgusting when I think about what she was going through at the time that photo was taken. I was only referring to the choice to have her play Pocahontas. DomWackTroll made the comment about how Pocahontas "was real purdy when you cleaned 'er up good" and I wanted to point out that having Pocahontas wear European clothes wasn't some figment of Doug's imagination, but something that did actually occur.

Latino people and Native Americans don't magically become the same race even if they might share a skintone, wtf. Treating non-white people as a homogenous mass of interchangeable brown people is HUGELY RACIST. Glamorising the abduction of a Native American girl is HUGELY RACIST AND IMPERIALIST. Categorising Lourdes and others as the 'hired help' as others have put it so well is HUGELY RACIST. Racism can look 'nice'. Racism can look like you're just 'appreciating their culture'. Racism is not just the KKK and Ferguson.

If that comment is directed at me, I didn't in any way say that Latino people and Native American are the same race. I'm not sure where you are getting that from?

Doug's dress up fancy party shit was just that, stupid dress up fancy party shit. I'm not treating non-white people as a homogenous mass, I'm saying being of Puerto-Rican descent and dressing up as Pocahontas during her time in England for a party doesn't seem much more offensive to me than someone of Middle Eastern descent dressing as a Geisha for Halloween because she also has straight black hair and dark eyes and thinks the costume will work. Is it appropriating someone's culture? Yes, to some extent. But it is not suggesting that Middle Eastern and Japanese people are the same because they share a few physical traits.

I do realize that the Lourdes case is not as simple as someone dressing up for Halloween. There was a lot of socio-economic bullying, religious manipulation, sexism, and-- I have no doubt-- racism in the VF world. I'm just saying, of all the stupid, racist shit Doug has done, having Lourdes play Pocahontas for a party is low on the list for me.

Also, on a historical note, there are arguments about whether or not Pocahontas was abducted, or chose to marry John Rolfe by her own volition. There are arguments that she was offered the chance to return to her family and original community but chose to remain with Rolfe. Acting as if she were a completely helpless girl controlled by the smart and strong European men is a bit condescending.

[refugee]

After a full year of silence, the Botkinettes have emerged from underground, and visionarydaughters.com is now botkinsisters.com (fear not, all old content has been archived). It's basically the same old wine in new bottles ("What Every Christian Girl Can Learn From Kate Middleton," "The History of Womanhood That Feminists Don't Want You to Know") - but the updated, bloviatory, loaded-with-links-to-products-for-sale "About Us" section is worthy of a full quote:

May I humbly suggest "Bathroom cleaning is my real ministry" as a new post count title?

Can I just say I find this incredibly depressing?

What adjective would their brothers put in front of "sister" if they were describing them?

[GenerationCedarchip]

This is one thing that has always puzzled me about them. They don't seem to understand how to use social media and their blog posts are so few and far between. They're so guarded that way, even though they must know it will hurt their business.

I've wondered about that, too. On the one hand, the family does seem tech-savvy to a certain degree, but all of them seem reluctant to engage in social media to any great degree.

The family as a whole seems torn between whether they want to try to steer people to their materials and ways of thinking, or whether they just want to withdraw completely, even from those who might be like-minded in some ways.

[Sobeknofret]

We have discussed before the racist books and videos VFI sold. Don Hart is high on my shit list.

And is it any surprise that Don Hart is on the board of the ever-so-whitewashed Botkin venture, The Western Conservatory of the Arts and Sciences?

westernconservatory.com/board-of-advisors

[Marian the Librarian]

I have long thought that the Botkins' limited, elusive use of social media is part of their schtick, and the hard-to-get game they play. They release juuuuust enough information, at infrequent intervals, to keep their followers and potential customers/sheeple curious.

The "Under Much Grace" blog, in 2009, quotes a former associate of Geoff Botkin (during the New Zealand chapter of their lives):

I hope that your friends in NZ will be extremely careful in dealing with the Botkins. They are incredibly attractive and seductive.

[K'Z'K]

Botkin and the 'nettes probably see nothing wrong with the original message, but want do distance themselves from DPIAT taint.

:brain-bleach:

[CyborgKin]

Can I just say I find this incredibly depressing?

What adjective would their brothers put in front of "sister" if they were describing them?

Humble? Useful? Godly? Purposeful? :angry-banghead:

I first saw the sisters on Homeschool Dropouts, and something in their eyes just creeped me out. It's kind of a relief. Not finding them creepy would be far worse.

[Jasmar]

Can I just say I find this incredibly depressing?

What adjective would their brothers put in front of "sister" if they were describing them?

Sycophantic? Frosty? Maidenly? Virginal? Piteous? Arrogant? :P

[Marian the Librarian]

What adjective would their brothers put in front of "sister" if they were describing them?

Programmed.

Brainwashed.

Stockholm-Syndromed.

Exploited.

Infantilized.

[CyborgKin]

I thought the question was how they would describe the sisters in public, not what they would say if they were being honest or self-aware.

[fiery redhead]

Can I just say I find this incredibly depressing?

What adjective would their brothers put in front of "sister" if they were describing them?

I agree. Here their mother is just "amazing", not an overused word at all. They are not painting a very appealing picture for SAHDhood but not bragging on women. Even though he accomplishments would probably be different, other young women I know who prescribe to this mentality hope to find it rewarding. They would appreciate some recognition by helping their man's vision (whatever that even is) come true. And girls/women who are new to the movement or curious about it, don't exactly want bathroom cleaning as the ending note of what a girl who is supposedly doing herself a favor by remaining at home until a man comes along wants to hear.

Botkins, almost EVERYONE in every possible demographic has to clean their bathrooms. The dangerous feminists, college dudes, foolish teenagers, and sometimes - fathers! Even the fathers who work all day and provide for their wife and kids! Sometimes in households there are tasks that seem to fall on certain people, sometimes daughters, simply because it's something that the rest of the household does not care about. I also hope you girls aren't having to clean your parents bathroom or the only ones to clean all the bathrooms. Agh, enough about bathrooms!

No wants to hear about a lame household task, however much they enjoy cleaning, when you are trying to sell them on letting their entire future ride on their dads and indefinite future husbands.

[refugee]

Oh God, I wasn't at all trying to excuse the sexual abuse going on at the time. It's disgusting when I think about what she was going through at the time that photo was taken. I was only referring to the choice to have her play Pocahontas. DomWackTroll made the comment about how Pocahontas "was real purdy when you cleaned 'er up good" and I wanted to point out that having Pocahontas wear European clothes wasn't some figment of Doug's imagination, but something that did actually occur.

If that comment is directed at me, I didn't in any way say that Latino people and Native American are the same race. I'm not sure where you are getting that from?

Doug's dress up fancy party shit was just that, stupid dress up fancy party shit. I'm not treating non-white people as a homogenous mass, I'm saying being of Puerto-Rican descent and dressing up as Pocahontas during her time in England for a party doesn't seem much more offensive to me than someone of Middle Eastern descent dressing as a Geisha for Halloween because she also has straight black hair and dark eyes and thinks the costume will work. Is it appropriating someone's culture? Yes, to some extent. But it is not suggesting that Middle Eastern and Japanese people are the same because they share a few physical traits.

I do realize that the Lourdes case is not as simple as someone dressing up for Halloween. There was a lot of socio-economic bullying, religious manipulation, sexism, and-- I have no doubt-- racism in the VF world. I'm just saying, of all the stupid, racist shit Doug has done, having Lourdes play Pocahontas for a party is low on the list for me.

Also, on a historical note, there are arguments about whether or not Pocahontas was abducted, or chose to marry John Rolfe by her own volition. There are arguments that she was offered the chance to return to her family and original community but chose to remain with Rolfe. Acting as if she were a completely helpless girl controlled by the smart and strong European men is a bit condescending.

Oh man, you just reminded me of the awful online preview I watched for "Alone, Yet Not Alone" -- not because I wanted to see the movie, but because of the controversy over the song and the nomination for some sort of film-based award. All these obviously caucasian people made up/costumed to look like Native Americans... It was painful.

[Palimpsest]

Well, I read "What Every Christian Girls Needs to Learn from Kate Middleton" so that Botkinette hook worked on me.

Boring. I also think they should have researched better. Kate's shoes are hardly High Street, and I'll eat my typically British fascinator if her clothing budget is that low.

I speculate that the Botkin brothers call their sisters sweet, Godly, modest and precious.

The "Under Much Grace" blog, in 2009, quotes a former associate of Geoff Botkin (during the New Zealand chapter of their lives):

I can easily believe this.

dressing up as Pocahontas during her time in England for a party doesn't seem much more offensive to me than someone of Middle Eastern descent dressing as a Geisha for Halloween because she also has straight black hair and dark eyes and thinks the costume will work. Is it appropriating someone's culture? Yes, to some extent.

You might want to look a little more deeply into what many people think of women who are not of Japanese heritage dressing up as Geishas for Halloween.

Edit: riffle

[RosyDaisy]

I believe she was used, as were others at least from the modeling standpoint. On the other hand, would you prefer that a company like VF not have diversity in their public face? I mean they could have been the all white catalog, which they weren't.

Every cult like this has a a few token non-white members for appearances. But deep down, they are racist to the core. You can't tell me you don't realize that CnD.

[PrairieGirl]

And is it any surprise that Don Hart is on the board of the ever-so-whitewashed Botkin venture, The Western Conservatory of the Arts and Sciences?

westernconservatory.com/board-of-advisors

I am not understanding why they need a board of advisors. The Botkins run a small website that they do not even update regularly, and most of its content is praise for themselves. I am not business savvy by any means, but to me this just screams of Geoff's typical bloviating and the incessant need to stroke his sun-sized ego.

[Palimpsest]

I am not understanding why they need a board of advisors. The Botkins run a small website that they do not even update regularly, and most of its content is praise for themselves. I am not business savvy by any means, but to me this just screams of Geoff's typical bloviating and the incessant need to stroke his sun-sized ego.

Nonsense. The Western Conservatory is VERY important. :penguin-no:

Through the Western Conservatory of the Arts and Sciences he [Geoff Botkin]publishes materials primarily for leaders in the United States, Europe and Africa.

No word on whether leaders anywhere read the materials. Also, why did he leave Canadian, S. American, Australian and all Asian leaders out. Are they unworthy?

Botkin also organized his own pseudo-intellectual tours, not unlike the old VF revisionist history ones. He was in Russia masquerading as an expert in Russian art a year or so ago.

[CloakNDagger]

Every cult like this has a a few token non-white members for appearances. But deep down, they are racist to the core. You can't tell me you don't realize that CnD.

I agree more with Palimpsest's assessment, but I am not saying you are wrong. My question was a bit rhetorical and I do mean that I feel she was used - in the negative sense of the word - but in such a way that she actually felt special.

[CyborgKin]

Geoff Botkin often talks about how Godly Men should be building their 'estate'. I find myself picturing a vast tract of land with some sort of castle-like mansion, and stuff like stables and servants' quarters. :shock: