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Coldwinterskies

I think some of the Duggar kids WILL leave sooner or later

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Coldwinterskies

In the Jehovah's Witness world, we talk about the high rate of "born in" JWs who end up leaving - about 66% eventually do leave according to the Pew religious surveys. A lot of times, the people who convert to the JW world as adults stay in because there was something about the belief system they found compelling. The kids born into it, however, often don't drink the kool aid because it was never their choice to be part of it and they want to know what else the world has to offer.

 

While the Duggars may not have the same high rate of defectors that the JWs do, I am convinced that at least some of the kids must be noticing that something isn't right with the things their parents have tried to teach them.

 

Even though they are all extremely sheltered and naive, I don't think the Duggar kids are stupid.

 

Even if they may not get to socialize with normal people, they know that not everyone out there lives the way they do.

Surely some of them noticed from Josie and Jubilee how their parents' beliefs about pregnancy can lead to danger and tragedy.

Now, on top of that, they've seen how Josh was screwed over by their parents' beliefs about courtship.

 

While I had no sympathy for Josh about his child-touching, I DO sympathize with him about the OkCupid profile and Ashley Madison thing. While cheating IS wrong, I think the standards are different for someone who had a choice to date around rather than being expected to marry before being allowed to fulfill any sort of sexual desire at all. Honestly, I think he's really just a normal horny young man who was basically forced to marry someone that he doesn't seem to be compatible with. I can't really say that it seems that surprising to me that he would want to find out what else is out there, and his parents left him NO ethical way to do that, so in a way I understand why he did this.

I think any of us would have felt completely stifled and bored to death in the simple-minded, oppressive world of the Quiverfull - especially if we were forced to marry someone who didn't appeal to us in any way except being an eager broodmare.

 

I think some of them WILL make a break at some point after having so many examples of how their parents' ideals didn't pan out. It would be amazing if Josh actually was the first one to admit he never really bought into it to begin with and was just trying to play along with it for his parents' sake.

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ILoveJellybeans

I think statistically at least one will leave, the lifestyle has so many families with at least one kid who has left (or in the Keller family's case, all but two who have left home...or the Jeubs with all of their adult kids leaving). Fundamentalism isn't something that sticks-the first fundies were raised normal, so the methods they are using are doing nothing but fuck up the next generation as they've not been proven to work.

Also statistically at least one is going to end up unsatisfied in the cult to the point where they leave-being gay, having ambitions they cant have as a fundie, being very unhappy with their partner, meeting someone who challenges their beliefs enough to make them doubt it, or just feeling the pull of things they could enjoy if they weren't fundie (whether that is dancing, drinking or in Josh's case, fucking everyone).

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DuggarsTheEndIsNear

I remember reading somewhere that ATI actually teaches parents to understand that some of their kids will leave, which is why it's important to have so many.

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Four is Enough

All this talk of leaving brings to (my) mind a question. There are fundies that we know about who've left the cult. Do the cultists themselves know about these people? For instance, the Jeubs. Do the Duggars know about their breaks for freedom? How about Alicia Pennington? Her story has been all over the news and social media.

Do their churches pray for these apostates? Do they (not just the families) go after these people and try to get them back? Or is all this just swept under a rug and never spoken of again?

But my biggest question of all is, if a fundy knows of another fundy who's successfully left the cult, does it spark any wonder, excitement, thoughts of escape?

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Ralar

I think Josiah might be ripe to leave. I also think Josiah might lose it and beat the sh!t out of Josh.

Josiah's courtship with Marjorie just ended, probably because of the molestation scandal. The Duggars are probably the least-desirable young adults for courtship purposes.

I hope Josiah uses this latest scandal to his advantage and hooks up with a publisher for THE book. He certainly would get a large upfront payment, with more to follow once the book is published. He could move where ever he desires, go to school, begin a career, etc. He could even (gasp) date -- for fun or to find a person with whom to share his life.

Now is the time, Josiah: run!

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Guest
All this talk of leaving brings to (my) mind a question. There are fundies that we know about who've left the cult. Do the cultists themselves know about these people? For instance, the Jeubs. Do the Duggars know about their breaks for freedom? How about Alicia Pennington? Her story has been all over the news and social media.

Do their churches pray for these apostates? Do they (not just the families) go after these people and try to get them back? Or is all this just swept under a rug and never spoken of again?

But my biggest question of all is, if a fundy knows of another fundy who's successfully left the cult, does it spark any wonder, excitement, thoughts of escape?

If nobody else, the Duggars definitely know about Susannah Keller. She was close to the Duggars for awhile, lived with J & A, and I believe even travelled with them for awhile. I remember possibly one of her ex-fiancés noted that she had been close with Jill especially, and that the two stayed in contact for awhile after she left the fold.

I think the in-laws are the best bet. I don't see Jessica Seewald sticking around, Dan Dillard clearly thinks they're all crazy, and 3 Kellers have left and spoken out against fundamentalism. They're the best chance of the Duggar kids seeing that there's life outside of ATI.

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CreationMuseumSeasonPass

Ohhh Josiah. We know you have a GED. If you're looking to leave, there's a great solution. The armed forces. You'll meet all types of people. You'll be able to advance your education and career. You could see all parts of the world for what really they are, not a TLC approved trip. You can do some real good, not the missionary vacations you're used to. There is a big world out there. Take those colorful bow ties and hit the dusty trail!

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MisUndrstd

At this point in the game, I think they almost have to leave.. at least some of them to pursue a life were they can sustain themselves. Before TLC the Duggars were not a wealthy family and now since the big money is gone, I imagine raising all the children will be a even bigger hardship on the Duggars. They have become accustomed to a life of luxury. A huge home, lots of cars, recreational vehicles, vacations, dining out, etc... Now that the biggest part of the income is caput the children remaining will have to figure how they will be able to support themselves. Mommy and Daddy might be able to keep the house and provide some food but all the extras will be limited at best. Now that Josh will no longer be able to provide for his family, the Duggars have the added responsibility of Anna and the grandkids. Ben is also on the Duggar payroll, eventually they will have to cut him lose and he will have to find a way to provide for Jessa and their babies on his own. Like all great Dynasties before it, the Duggar Dynasty has over-lived their power and influence..

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MisUndrstd
Ohhh Josiah. We know you have a GED. If you're looking to leave, there's a great solution. The armed forces. You'll meet all types of people. You'll be able to advance your education and career. You could see all parts of the world for what really they are, not a TLC approved trip. You can do some real good, not the missionary vacations you're used to. There is a big world out there. Take those colorful bow ties and hit the dusty trail!

I don't know much about the enlistment criteria of the Armed Forces, but do they accept a GED anymore? I think in order to get in to the military with a GED they have to have some type of college credit to go along with it.

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nastyhobbitses

I think some of the Duggar kids are in way too deep to leave, but here's my list of potential breakaways in order from most likely to least likely:

Josiah - already seemed pretty done with fundie life, has a GED, was pretty happy dating a girl who wore pants, seems like an inquisitive and resourceful guy who could get away without worrying too much about his prospects on his own

Jinger - probably still wants to move to NYC, and now's her chance. RUN, JINGER!

John-David - has been slowly moving away from the circus for a while now, could use this as an excuse to break away completely

Jessa - Won't break away from fundamentalism, will probably go the Alyssa Bates route. Or write the tell-all if she thinks it will get her more attention/money; I don't think she has much loyalty to her family, and is only putting on the loyalty act because it's the most beneficial course of action for her right now. Once the wind changes, she will too.

Joseph - He's already going to college. It's fundie college, but nevertheless, he is interacting with people who are a bit different from him, which may help him inch away from the compound

Josie - Already doesn't give a fuck since her parents don't really hold her to any real standards out of a combination of spoiling her and not really caring about being parents; by the time she's old enough to rebel, JB & M will be well into their sixties and even more checked out than they are now, and will probably let her do whatever she wants.

The Lost Girls - Johannah and Jenni are already neglected, so they have that on their side for getting out once they're old enough, and they're close to Amy, who's sort of a Gateway Rebel, in that she's still pretty fundie, but she wears jeans and listens to rock music, which is scandalous by Duggar standards

The Howlers - Less likely than the girls, since being a fundamentalist male has its perks, but I could see Jackson and James itching to break free

Jana - Seems like she'd be happy getting out and living a quiet fundie-lite life, but too attached to the younger kids and fearful of losing them/threats to their emotional wellbeing to go through with leaving.

Jill - I think she genuinely buys into the doctrine. She won't leave.

Joy - Would jump off a cliff if Jill told her to, would probably be closer to the top of this list if she wasn't so attached to Jill

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TheJewAmongUs

Not a single one of them has any experience or a skill that will do them any good out on their own. Except possibly John David, who appears to have experience running a towing business minus the actually finance/money aspect. The rest of them know nothing and own nothing. Maybe they could audition for Survivor and get $1 million that way.

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RebelYell
All this talk of leaving brings to (my) mind a question. There are fundies that we know about who've left the cult. Do the cultists themselves know about these people? For instance, the Jeubs. Do the Duggars know about their breaks for freedom? How about Alicia Pennington? Her story has been all over the news and social media.

Do their churches pray for these apostates? Do they (not just the families) go after these people and try to get them back? Or is all this just swept under a rug and never spoken of again?

But my biggest question of all is, if a fundy knows of another fundy who's successfully left the cult, does it spark any wonder, excitement, thoughts of escape?

Hmm. Great question. I'll give you my two cents and a couple of anecodotes. :wink-kitty:

Do fundies know when other fundies leave?... I would say this depends on the level of internet access in the home/church and how far the social circle extends. I read about a lot of fundies on FJ now, more than I ever knew existed then ((that is, existed outside of my social circle when I was in the thick of it)). If they do know about it, generally they leave them alone, but there is prayer on their behalf. If they are somewhat acquainted with the person and feel led of the spirit, they might try to intervene.

When I (as a fundie) saw people leave, it was not what I would call exciting. Those of us still in the fold saw the worry and heartache the parents went through, and heard all the prayers and judgmental words....it was definitely big news and talked a lot about until it was clear the person or people weren't coming back. Also I definitely saw those who had left as worldly. It always seemed like a daunting and scary thing to leave.

Finally, what I wanted in life was not going to be possible in the situation I was in, and that (that alone) is what pushed me enough to leave. My pastor came and prayed in my doorway while I packed my shit. He prayed that I would have no happiness in the world, and that a hedge of thorns would be around me at all times. I kept packing :cracking-up: . A couple weeks later a member of the community sent me a letter and a book about a Mennonite boy who had left the faith for a time and married a worldly nurse, had children with her, and then she cheated on him and he had to spend the rest of his life caring for his children as a permanently single, restored to the faith gentleman. I had already read the book, and it and the letter went right in the trash. I think a lot of people get letters when they leave....long epistles about how everything will be better if they come back.

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CreationMuseumSeasonPass

I don't know much about the enlistment criteria of the Armed Forces, but do they accept a GED anymore? I think in order to get in to the military with a GED they have to have some type of college credit to go along with it.

I did a quick online search. The gist I got is, yes it is possible. It's harder if you don't have a high school diploma, but if you want it, you are allowed to go for it. Also, different branches have different rules and allow different percentages of GED holders. But, this IS an option, it looks like.

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gemma

I suspect jd may not have bought into it all for a while now. He hasn't caved in to Boobs demands to marry and he's out of the house.

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JenniferJuniper
Not a single one of them has any experience or a skill that will do them any good out on their own. Except possibly John David, who appears to have experience running a towing business minus the actually finance/money aspect. The rest of them know nothing and own nothing. Maybe they could audition for Survivor and get $1 million that way.

True enough, but they have their name which, for the short term at least, will open some doors for the young adults if they choose to openly reject their parents' lifestyle.

They're still young. There is time to begin to make up for the ridiculous indoctrination and their woeful education. Others in worse situations have done it, and are surviving and thriving.

I can't imagine living in the TTH is fun for anyone right now. If fact, it must be hellish. The show and everything that went with it are now obviously gone forever. Jim Bob and Michelle must be out of their minds with rage, grief and confusion. Granted they brought it all on themselves, but I doubt they can hide it from even the littlest kids.

Ka-boom time soon.

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singsingsing

There's no way in hell at least one of them won't leave now. This has all just been too much. There are too many cracks in the facade. Willingly or not, this WILL cause at least some of them to question, doubt, and maybe even come to the conclusion that there is a better way.

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nastyhobbitses

True enough, but they have their name which, for the short term at least, will open some doors for the young adults if they choose to openly reject their parents' lifestyle.

They're still young. There is time to begin to make up for the ridiculous indoctrination and their woeful education. Others in worse situations have done it, and are surviving and thriving.

I can't imagine living in the TTH is fun for anyone right now. If fact, it must be hellish. The show and everything that went with it are now obviously gone forever. Jim Bob and Michelle must be out of their minds with rage, grief and confusion. Granted they brought it all on themselves, but I doubt they can hide it from even the littlest kids.

Ka-boom time soon.

Someone smuggle the older ones a couple DVDs or USB drives with every episode of Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt.

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ari_belle

I don't see any of them leaving the cult for a long time, but I'm trying to be realistic. They probably feel stuck now more than ever. Everyone's watching their every move.

Maybe some of the kids will go to live with their married sisters, but that's all I see happening, at least until the scandals die down and the media stops paying so much attention to them...whenever the fuck THAT will happen.

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JenniferJuniper
I don't see any of them leaving the cult for a long time, but I'm trying to be realistic. They probably feel stuck now more than ever. Everyone's watching their every move.

We have totally opposite guesses here.

I don't think anyone is watching them at all now. Jim Bob and Michelle are totally wrapped up in Jim Bob and Michelle. Jill's gone. Jessa's gone. Joy is out of the country. Jinger and Jana are probably worn out and sick of all of this shit. If the kids aren't allowed to drift away on their own, what's going to happen?

Repressing Josh, enabling Josh, covering for Josh, forcing Josh into what is probably a loveless (for him) or at least premature marriage, all of the things they did to and for their son led to where they are today.

I know they aren't the brightest bulbs, but does anyone really believe they are going to try to do the same with the eleventy adult and adolescent sons currently under their control? If they try, it's a match to a testosterone-fueled tinderbox.

The kids - the boys most certainly - will either move on one at a time or someone will stage a friggin' riot. (I am, as always, looking at you, James.)

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Rhetorica
... A couple weeks later a member of the community sent me a letter and a book about a Mennonite boy who had left the faith for a time and married a worldly nurse, had children with her, and then she cheated on him and he had to spend the rest of his life caring for his children as a permanently single, restored to the faith gentleman. I had already read the book, and it and the letter went right in the trash. I think a lot of people get letters when they leave....long epistles about how everything will be better if they come back.

Wow--so much of your experience was like mine in leaving my family's Amish Mennonite community. I've read that book too--I don't remember the title, but one of my cousins is married to a relative of the author.

Good for you for getting out. I got those pleading letters too. They're the worst because they make it all so personal--you're not just rejecting a church/religion, you're now rejecting loved ones too. :angry-banghead:

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Cleopatra7

We have totally opposite guesses here.

I don't think anyone is watching them at all now. Jim Bob and Michelle are totally wrapped up in Jim Bob and Michelle. Jill's gone. Jessa's gone. Joy is out of the country. Jinger and Jana are probably worn out and sick of all of this shit. If the kids aren't allowed to drift away on their own, what's going to happen?

Repressing Josh, enabling Josh, covering for Josh, forcing Josh into what is probably a loveless (for him) or at least premature marriage, all of the things they did to and for their son led to where they are today.

I know they aren't the brightest bulbs, but does anyone really believe they are going to try to do the same with the eleventy adult and adolescent sons currently under their control? If they try, it's a match to a testosterone-fueled tinderbox.

The kids - the boys most certainly - will either move on one at a time or someone will stage a friggin' riot. (I am, as always, looking at you, James.)

My guess is that the kids and kidults remaining at the TTH are basically on lockdown, but also feral, as JB and Michelle are probably too self-involved to pay attention to them, assuming they ever were in the first place. Jana probably has to wrangle Josie and the lost girls by herself, and maybe the M-kids if they're staying at the TTH. The howlers are probably being left to their own devices in what must be a very confusing environment. JB and Michelle will probably try to double down on controlling the howlers, but they've really set all those boys up to fail, because they have no marketable skills, shaky literacy and numeracy skills, but are supposed to support a quiverfull of kids on a single income. Given this grim future, the howlers -- and all of the kids, for that matter -- have a right to be angry at their parents.

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sisterwives
I remember reading somewhere that ATI actually teaches parents to understand that some of their kids will leave, which is why it's important to have so many.

That is so backwards I don't even know where to begin.

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RootBeerFloat

Hasn't Josh effectively left? He's been parroting and pretending, but by his actions clearly he does not agree with the teachings. Sex is above all else in their cult.

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jqlgoblue
Hasn't Josh effectively left? He's been parroting and pretending, but by his actions clearly he does not agree with the teachings. Sex is above all else in their cult.

In my book he hasn't left until he isn't treating his wife like a helpmeet baby factory and having his kids homeschool using presumably ATI curriculum. He also clearly is still VERY conservative in his views... he just can't keep it in his pants. He may not know what to do with that conundrum, honestly.

If he doesn't want a million kids or wants his kids to be better educated than he is, he has control of that. He is the headship after all. The crazy thing is when he had an income he didn't have to do what his daddy said. Now he does so it gets a bit more messy.

As for Dim Bulb and Michelle I vote for them doubling down. I would not want to be any of those kids right now. And Josh. I can just imagine JB going crazy on him asking what else they don't know. I do think Michelle deep down knows how wrong a lot of this is but she is powerless.

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ari_belle

We have totally opposite guesses here.

I don't think anyone is watching them at all now. Jim Bob and Michelle are totally wrapped up in Jim Bob and Michelle. Jill's gone. Jessa's gone. Joy is out of the country. Jinger and Jana are probably worn out and sick of all of this shit. If the kids aren't allowed to drift away on their own, what's going to happen?

Repressing Josh, enabling Josh, covering for Josh, forcing Josh into what is probably a loveless (for him) or at least premature marriage, all of the things they did to and for their son led to where they are today.

I know they aren't the brightest bulbs, but does anyone really believe they are going to try to do the same with the eleventy adult and adolescent sons currently under their control? If they try, it's a match to a testosterone-fueled tinderbox.

The kids - the boys most certainly - will either move on one at a time or someone will stage a friggin' riot. (I am, as always, looking at you, James.)

Oh, when I said "everyone's watching them" I meant like...their fans, their critics, etc. No, the attention within the home is focused elsewhere, I agree with that.

I could see Boob and Mullet getting uber controlling with the rest of em, but I think they're probably too burnt out for that. I just think the adult children/kids would be scared to leave because of everyone OUTSIDE of their family watching them.

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