Duggars Without Pity

[DeFrauder]

Well, what are the chances of them "making do" with the assets they have now? Do they own all the land they claim to own? Do they own their current house, or does that somehow belong to TLC?

I got the impression somewhere that Jim Bob bought a lot of property around that stark, unlandscaped, ugly house they live in so that he could give all of his children houses of their own on property he owned and he could live to be 99, still being the Grand PooBaa of the family who worships him. Har de har to that! If there's a market for residential lots he could break that property into lots and sell them. IF he owns the property. I think that anyone idiotic enough to blow his nest egg on a frankly hopeless election attempt is pretty damn stupid with money, especially if he's got a whack of kids. After that, how exactly did he construct his supossedly fabulous portfolio of property? The money from TLC would obviously provide massive funding, but still . . . even in those years, how much would he have left over after he paid all the expenses for his kids, his wife, his flock of vehicles (how many does one family actually NEED?), taxes, gas, heating and cooling (I can't believe TLC paid for ALL their household expenses, portable phones, etc. etc. etc.,) because the Duggars weren't living on the cheap at the end of the show.

The fact that he blew all that money on a pointless race, doesn't actually work at all, and has all those vehicles parked out back suggests to me that this is a man with very little sense about money. I don't care if he ran seminars about how to save money; I'd bet a good deal that he hasn't got much saved, and that his fabulous property portfolio includes at least some land that's well out of town and not the sort of thing that gets snapped up top dollar by eager bidders. He'd never recognize it, but he's a grifter, so is Michelle, and that they got a FABULOUS opportunity to grift that is over.

Are they and most of the children able to work at anything that would bring in good money?

Sorry, I know this is overly long. But another issue that puzzles me: is it possible to get elected to the US Senate without holding a college degree? I know it would be perfectly legal for a non-degreed non-professional to be a Senator, and I think there are a lot of people without college educations that would be great Senators. But in the 21st century, ARE there many (or any) Senators without some kind of college degree? Because if there aren't, Jim Bob's senate bid was astonishingly stupid. He was a minnow among sharks. He had some overblown fantasy about being God's chosen candidate and ran with it: he was kind of pathetic.

The thing about Jim Bob--or anyone one thing--is that he believes he is an important and intelligent man, and he's not. My grandfather had a 5th grade education but was smart and a whip. I'm not saying only people with BA or BS degrees or higher should run for office; I'm saying that a man with a HS education and a fantasy that God wanted him to run for office is kind of stupid, has grandiose dreams in which he's the main character, and isn't likely to be a good father who provides for his children. He certainly hasn't provided them with educations that are recognized outside of Fundieland. He makes me furious.

Their place is supposedly next to the land full. I like to think they save money by throwing their trash over the fence. If true, subdividing will not pay off as much as they might hope.

I think that it is difficult to get elected to any federal office without a degree. First because the elites generally all go to college, and ivy league ones at that. Second, because an uneducated candidate is an uneducated candidate. Even college education has been dumbed down and people need advanced degrees to compete. Part of that is the increased ease into getting into for profit grad programs and the other reason has to with the increasing numbers of people seeking university education.

Having an education does not make a person SMARTER than the next person, but having no education means vastly reduced opportunity.

The Congressional Research Service notes that the vast majority of Members (95 percent) had an academic degree:

168 Representatives and 57 Senators had a law degree. Of these, five (three Representative and two Senators) also hold a Master of Laws (LL.M.) degree.

83 Representatives and 16 Senators earned a master's degree – often a Master of Business Administration (M.B.A.) – as their highest educational degree

27 Representatives and one Senator (Mark Begich) have no educational degree beyond a high school diploma.

23 Representatives (but no Senators) have a PhD

17 Representatives and three Senators have a medical degree (this number includes one Senator with a veterinary medicine degree and one Representative with a dental degree).

Five Representatives (but no Senators) have an associate's degree as their highest degree. One House Member has a licensed practical nurse (L.P.N.) degree.

Three Representatives (John Shimkus, Geoff Davis, Brett Guthrie) and one Senator (Jack Reed) are graduates of the United States Military Academy, while two Senators (John McCain, Jim Webb) and one Representative (Joe Sestak) are graduates of the United States Naval Academy. Three Senators (including Russ Feingold and Richard Lugar) and two Representatives (Jim Cooper and Jim Himes) were Rhodes Scholars, three Representatives (Tom Cole and Gabrielle Giffords) were Fulbright Scholars, and one Representative (John M. Spratt, Jr.) was a Marshall Scholar.

Our old friend wikipedia breaks it down.

I find it interesting that the only Senator without a college degree is a "librul".

[DeFrauder]

The deed says the Duggars sold the house to the church for $1 in 2001. The assessor has the estimated sale price to be $250,000. Sounds shady to me.

The Duggars sold the house to the church in 2001. What year was it demolished? Wasn't it several years after 2001? Did they live there free that entire time?

If this is what happened, I bet they transferred ownership of the house to the church for $1, but actually donated the house and land in return for a tax deductible receipt.

Not really shady, except for the inflated appraisal price. I doubt a tear down in that area was worth that much at the time.

[halcionne]

According to the Washington County Assessor, in 1992 the house at 2101 Johnson Road was purchased by Garret Ruark from the Department of Veteran Affairs. He then sold it to Jim Bob and Michelle a few months later.

Jim Bob and Michelle sold it to the First Baptist Church in 2001. I appears that the foundation of the house is still there located by the parking lot of the church. On the map it says the church is called Cross Church Springdale Campus.

The deeds show the house being sold to each person for $1. But the assessor has other amounts for the sale price.

I seem to remember seeing the name Garrett Ruark as the name of the person that sold them a couple of their other properties.

I thought I had remembered them saying that the church owned the house and let them live there because there were going to demolish it anyways. I guess what really happened was the Duggars sold the house to the church and the church allowed them to continue to live there until it was demolished.

There was a house they rented after leaving the Johnson Road house but before the TTH was ready. That's the house that was slated for demolition so the owners didn't mind letting them live in it. From "Raising 16 Children," part one, on youtube. I'm searching for an address, but no dice yet. I feel like I looked it up before (and discussed it on FJ) but maybe not. Here are several previous addresses for Jim Bob; could it be 4701 S Turner?

[ShepherdontheRock]

Hmmm.

You know, the irony is, I thought it wasn't borrowing money per se that was a bad idea. My parents always taught me that borrowing money was a good thing, as long as you can reasonably expect to be able to pay it back. And doing so on the regular would be a very good way to build up your credit, making it easier to buy a house, a car, whatever. So "debt free" is actually not very practical at all.

And, maybe it's not the greatest financial advice. But my parents are certainly doing well for themselves and not grifting off of anyone.

And granted, I don't think running for office without a baccalaureate degree is necessarily a bad idea, but it's stupid when you've very little experience, and need to raise a shit ton of children.

Which brings me to this- maybe he didn't grift off the government because they realized he had plus of 6 figures that he squandered and wouldn't give him money.

[quiverfullofgreed]

There was a house they rented after leaving the Johnson Road house but before the TTH was ready. That's the house that was slated for demolition so the owners didn't mind letting them live in it. From "Raising 16 Children," part one, on youtube. I'm searching for an address, but no dice yet. I feel like I looked it up before (and discussed it on FJ) but maybe not. Here are several previous addresses for Jim Bob; could it be 4701 S Turner?

The Duggars sold the Johnson Road house to the church in 2001 and continued to live there a few years after they sold it until the church demolished the house.

So they lived in another house after Johnson Road and before their current house? And that house was also demolished?

I found the other discussion about this in the Grandma Mary thread. Someone mentioned the in between house had the house number of 1715. I see that one of their previous addresses is 1715 48th street. Could that be it?

[halcionne]

The Duggars sold the Johnson Road house to the church in 2001 and continued to live there a few years after they sold it until the church demolished the house.

So they lived in another house after Johnson Road and before their current house? And that house was also demolished?

I found the other discussion about this in the Grandma Mary thread. Someone mentioned the in between house had the house number of 1715. I see that one of their previous addresses is 1715 48th street. Could that be it?

Oho, you found the post I was looking for but couldn't find! That address brings up an insurance agent and when you look it up on google maps it looks about right. There are pretty good pictures of the house going back to 2007.

[Cleopatra7]

Is grifting a Gothard tenet?

It might as well be. I bet that ATI families think that they're super speshul and that outsiders should be honored to support such "godly families." Remember, most ATI families claim to run "ministries" of some sort, which is another angle to extract money from the public. I have no idea about the exact nature of the Duggars' past, present, or future finances, but the idea of JB spending all that money on failed campaigns while his 12+ kids wore second hand everything and rice for every meal has never sat right with me. Children are supposedly a "blessing" to the Duggars, but they refuse to invest in them, from providing a substandard education to even caring about their safety and bodily integrity.

[DGayle]

As explained in their first special, the Duggars sold their house to a church expecting to move into their current house. When they didn't finish the new house, the church let them stay until they needed to tear down the original house as part of an expansion. Then they moved into a temporary rental. Maybe the Duggars couldn't afford their home, and turned it over to the church, who let them stay.

Even if they sold the house to the church, if they lived in it rent-free, that's charity. Something not really in dispute is that, at least part of the time they lived there, the church owned the house, and they didn't pay rent.

It's interesting that they got so much help from that church, from housing to childcare help to laundry help, and now aren't connected to them anymore. It's like they took and took and took, and either ran or were told no more.

Other than likely being paid to endorse the seminar, I've missed where they claim anyone can afford to have 19 kids by thrift shopping.

They absolutely spin this as something anyone can afford to do by completely denying in every way that you can get in over your head financially. "God will provide" is their way of arguing that anyone can do this.

[Handmaiden of Dog]

Maybe they sold their house to the church for $1.00 and the church took on all the financial responsibilities: utilities, insurance, upkeep, and taxes. That way JB gets a nice big tax deduction and he can live there virtually free.

[DGayle]

Well, what are the chances of them "making do" with the assets they have now?

Their home is owned by them, free and clear. They have utilities, food, stuff like that. They have plenty o live on, though they'd have to actually buy used and skip the trips. I think they're too used to luxury.

If there's a market for residential lots he could break that property into lots and sell them. IF he owns the property.

That would mean risking heathens being nearby. I think JB would rather be homeless than to live near a dangerous person like an atheist or Muslim.

his fabulous property portfolio includes at least some land that's well out of town and not the sort of thing that gets snapped up top dollar by eager bidders.

This makes me think of my grandparents, who bought a bunch of useless land, and brag about having a hundred acres in the midwest. But literally it can't be used!

He'd never recognize it, but he's a grifter, so is Michelle, and that they got a FABULOUS opportunity to grift that is over.

They could give Jill & the RodTrapp Family lessons.

Are they and most of the children able to work at anything that would bring in good money?

They're mentally stunted. I don't think any of the kids know how to function without being in the cult, and I doubt many are curious enough to learn. The kids who do manage to get jobs shouldn't be expected to support their parents' household, especially if they move out, or are saving to move out.

Sorry, I know this is overly long. But another issue that puzzles me: is it possible to get elected to the US Senate without holding a college degree? I know it would be perfectly legal for a non-degreed non-professional to be a Senator, and I think there are a lot of people without college educations that would be great Senators.

It's legal and it's possible. I think there are a lot of people without degrees who'd do a great job. So many of the smartest people of our time dropped out, while so many of the stupidest went to Ivy schools and got degrees somehow.

[DGayle]

Second, because an uneducated candidate is an uneducated candidate.

I feel very sad for people who think the only way to be an educated person is to go sit in college classrooms. I'm pretty sure Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, Kevin Rose, Larry Ellison, and Michael Dell, and people like Dave Thomas, Wolfgang Puck, Oprah, and Rachel Ray, would have something to say about how not having a degree means being uneducated.

[Dandruff]

According to the Washington County Assessor, in 1992 the house at 2101 Johnson Road was purchased by Garret Ruark from the Department of Veteran Affairs. He then sold it to Jim Bob and Michelle a few months later.

Jim Bob and Michelle sold it to the First Baptist Church in 2001. I appears that the foundation of the house is still there located by the parking lot of the church. On the map it says the church is called Cross Church Springdale Campus.

The deeds show the house being sold to each person for $1. But the assessor has other amounts for the sale price.

I seem to remember seeing the name Garrett Ruark as the name of the person that sold them a couple of their other properties.

I thought I had remembered them saying that the church owned the house and let them live there because there were going to demolish it anyways. I guess what really happened was the Duggars sold the house to the church and the church allowed them to continue to live there until it was demolished.

I'm pretty sure Garrett Ruark is the name of Michelle's brother. Don't know if her father was also named Garrett.

[halcionne]

I'm pretty sure Garrett Ruark is the name of Michelle's brother. Don't know if her father was also named Garrett.

Yes, father and son are both Garrett.

[quiverfullofgreed]

I'm pretty sure Garrett Ruark is the name of Michelle's brother. Don't know if her father was also named Garrett.

Sorry, I forgot to post an update. Garrett Ruark was Michelle's Dad. I did a little more research and found another questionable real estate transactions between Garrett Ruark and Mary Duggar. In the earlier transaction Michelle's mother was still alive so she was listed on the Deed transfer. I think it might be the house that Josh and Anna lived in when they were first married, but I am not sure. It is hard to keep track of all their property.

[GunnBroker]

It's not that unusual to see a deed list $1 as the "consideration", particularly with quit claim deeds. Quit claims are used for a number of reasons, like if an owner deeds it in trust to a family member or from a family member to a trust, or adding a new spouse to an existing deed. There has to be some form of consideration, as it's not a gift (and other tax laws come into play), so $1 is often used.

I've lost track of the ownership trail in this case, but perhaps it was quit claimed.

[quiverfullofgreed]

On the deed for the 2001 sale of the 2101 Johnson property from the Duggars to the church they list $1 as the sale price. But they also put $825 worth of revenue stamps on the deed. I am not sure what the exact rate was in 2001, but apparently you have to buy these revenue stamps based on the purchase price when transfering property in exchange for money. I think it is a few dollars per $1000 of purchase price. That is how the assessor came up with the purchase price being $250,000 even though it was only listed as $1 on the deed.

$250,000 seems ridiculously high amount to pay for a house that needed to be demolished. This is the same house that Jim Bob claims to have paid $65,000 in cash for. (They bought it from Michelle's Dad who bought it from the Department of Veteran Affairs.) The foundation of the house is still there. You can see the softball fields Jim Bob mentioned that they were going to build, but they are pretty far away behind the foundation of the house. And the softball fields are not on the house's property because the house didn't include much land. It is listed as only including less than half an acre.

[roddma]

I thought the Johnson road house was the in between house after the car lot. They also had one mortgage on their first home and rented it for $325/month .

[Cochise]

I'd be very sorry if I've given the impression that only people with degrees beyond high school are intelligent or educated. What bothers me about the Duggars, instead, is the way that they denigrate a higher education (or even an education in a public grade school, middle school, or high school). They seem to believe that being home-schooled is inherently better than going to neighborhood public schools. That might be the case sometimes; I'm sure that there are many good, committed, serious homeschooling parents who may not have advanced degrees who make sure they're more than competent to teach all the subjects their children need to learn.

I'm just not sure that the Duggars are those kind of homeschoolers. And I'll be honest and say that I suspect that a homeschooling parent with a high school education isn't always as capable as a teacher with a BS or BA and some education classes and a credential would be. Some may be as good or better; are all of them, though?

I don't get the impression that the Duggars are the ideal homeschoolers. Who, specifically, is the teacher? Are some of the children being taught by other children who don't even have HS degrees or GEDs? That might not be a problem; my eight-year-old brother taught me to read and probably would have been perfectly adequate to teach me math and sciences when we were older and he was in middle school or high school. He's an unusual person, however, and in any case my "reading lessons" were play, really: they involved him reading comics to me a lot while pointing at the words. I gradually began to see a connection between the squiggles he was pointing to and the illustrations.

I don't think that Michelle is as bright or as willing to teach as my brother was, or as my public-school teachers were. I just don't. My brother liked hanging out with me; she doesn't even seem to like to spend much time with many of the kids, and it's not clear to me how she could teach children of such different ages well without spending hours and hours of time in the classroom.

I was a teacher myself, and I know that just being in the classroom isn't the whole of it; preparing lessons takes a lot of time. Preparing lessons for children from 5 to 17, five days a week? I don't think I could do it at all, much less make a good job of it. I wish those children had to mix with other children and have lessons appropriate to their own ages and abilities.

[SassyPants]

I'd be very sorry if I've given the impression that only people with degrees beyond high school are intelligent or educated. What bothers me about the Duggars, instead, is the way that they denigrate a higher education (or even an education in a public grade school, middle school, or high school). They seem to believe that being home-schooled is inherently better than going to neighborhood public schools. That might be the case sometimes; I'm sure that there are many good, committed, serious homeschooling parents who may not have advanced degrees who make sure they're more than competent to teach all the subjects their children need to learn.

I'm just not sure that the Duggars are those kind of homeschoolers. And I'll be honest and say that I suspect that a homeschooling parent with a high school education isn't always as capable as a teacher with a BS or BA and some education classes and a credential would be. Some may be as good or better; are all of them, though?

I don't get the impression that the Duggars are the ideal homeschoolers. Who, specifically, is the teacher? Are some of the children being taught by other children who don't even have HS degrees or GEDs? That might not be a problem; my eight-year-old brother taught me to read and probably would have been perfectly adequate to teach me math and sciences when we were older and he was in middle school or high school. He's an unusual person, however, and in any case my "reading lessons" were play, really: they involved him reading comics to me a lot while pointing at the words. I gradually began to see a connection between the squiggles he was pointing to and the illustrations.

I don't think that Michelle is as bright or as willing to teach as my brother was, or as my public-school teachers were. I just don't. My brother liked hanging out with me; she doesn't even seem to like to spend much time with many of the kids, and it's not clear to me how she could teach children of such different ages well without spending hours and hours of time in the classroom.

I was a teacher myself, and I know that just being in the classroom isn't the whole of it; preparing lessons takes a lot of time. Preparing lessons for children from 5 to 17, five days a week? I don't think I could do it at all, much less make a good job of it. I wish those children had to mix with other children and have lessons appropriate to their own ages and abilities.

PLus for many years, she was pregnant, nursing, chasing a toddler or 2, running a home AND HOME SCHOOLING ALL THE KIDS WHO WERE OF AGE????? Jana and Jill needed to be homeschooled too, so they could not have been freeing up her time to homeschool.

Not enough hours in the day.

[JMO]

I'm curious to know who "Jim" is. I'm thinking it may be a member of their old church, a cousin or even a member of the original film crew. Someone who knew just enough about their situation at that time as well as since then. We seem to all agree JB was a grifter and the kids are poorly educated. I'm highly educated and my family has always praised education but I also had family members that couldn't go beyond high school or a GED for reasons that had nothing to do with their intelligence or willingness to learn. My main problem with Meeechelle is that she had minimal time to spend educating the kids, she provided poor resources for them to learn from (ATI character pamphlets anyone?) and worst of all JB/M actively encouraged blind obedience and stifled curiosity, creativity and critical thinking skills. My grandfather graduated from high school at 15/16 in order to work but he was a lifelong learner and wanted his kids to finish high school and go beyond in order to have a career. None of their kids are encouraged to think critically and that is their greatest downfall as homeschool educators. That and they want their kids to make the same exact choices they do and to not venture out from their prescribed circle.

[Handmaiden of Dog]

When I think back at all of the inspiring teachers I had I truly feel sorry for those kids. Some teachers are so enthusiastic about their subject and so well educated in it they can really bring history to life or explain physics or get you fired up about microbiology. I can't imagine Michelle ever being excited about anything.

[FloraDoraDolly]

The most recent example of the Duggars' homeschooling that we were able to see was Derick teaching the multiplication tables to THIRTEEN-year-old James. In other words, a kid who should have been in the eighth grade was doing third grade math.

[HarleyQuinn]

When I think back at all of the inspiring teachers I had I truly feel sorry for those kids. Some teachers are so enthusiastic about their subject and so well educated in it they can really bring history to life or explain physics or get you fired up about microbiology. I can't imagine Michelle ever being excited about anything.

I do too. I messaged one of my favorite teachers after I got out of college for advice because she taught the class that I majored in.

I always thought I hated science until I had an AWESOME chemistry teacher.

My gym teacher made it fun even when some of us totally sucked at the sport we were playing. (seriously, fuck water polo)

My math teacher, instead of failing me when he caught me cheating took the time to explain the parts I didn't understand so I didn't have to panic and feel the need to cheat. (embarrassing)

Fundie kids will never get great teachers like that.

[ShepherdontheRock]

I do too. I messaged one of my favorite teachers after I got out of college for advice because she taught the class that I majored in.

I always thought I hated science until I had an AWESOME chemistry teacher.

My gym teacher made it fun even when some of us totally sucked at the sport we were playing. (seriously, fuck water polo)

My math teacher, instead of failing me when he caught me cheating took the time to explain the parts I didn't understand so I didn't have to panic and feel the need to cheat. (embarrassing)

Fundie kids will never get great teachers like that.

Not even in school. I had 2 great women at a music camp I went to in middle school inspire me and have the push I needed to encourage me to actually major in music.

You think they'll let women like that teach those poor kids how to play violin/piano/harp?

[Cleopatra7]

Not even in school. I had 2 great women at a music camp I went to in middle school inspire me and have the push I needed to encourage me to actually major in music.

You think they'll let women like that teach those poor kids how to play violin/piano/harp?

The Duggars aim for mediocrity for all their kids. There's no room in ATI or the wider IFB for exceptional people, because such individuals would chafe against all the rules and regulations that leave no room for critical thinking or creativity. JB and Michelle have defending having so many children by claiming that one of their kids could find a cure for cancer or be president, but they know that's never going to happen. For them, having kids is like making those old school paper dolls, where there's a single mold for girl dolls and a single mold for boy dolls and making one that's different in any way destroys the flow. It's more important to create mindless godbots that thinking, autonomous individuals.