(Possible Fundie?) Family Murders in Tulsa

[salex]

snipped

Edited to add that I was curious about the price of ammo. It seems that 3000 rounds of rifle ammo would cost between $700 and $1200, depending on caliber. Where did they get that kind of money?

The oldest son worked, at least for a while, at a place called Micah Tec--a call center that took a lot of religious/church calls during the week and also commercial calls. He could have earned the money. He could also have stolen credit card information from someone calling in to donate or order something (that happened to me once when I made a hotel reservation) or he could have stolen credit card info from his parents.

An official with MicahTek, a call center less than five minutes from the Bevers’ home, said Robert Bever was employed there for a brief time but did not work there at the time of the attacks. Several employees on break outside MicahTek on Friday declined to speak about Robert Bever.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/communities/b ... ccd4a.html

[Howl]

I guess for me the fact that adults have the legal recourse to make their own life choices regarding environment and to get help and kids that age are at the mercy of adults that it should factor in somehow. But how to do that without endangering others is the question.

This. This, this, this! Social services and the legal system for juveniles have not found balance and justice with this issue. It is profoundly difficult. Thank you for stating it so succinctly.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

The oldest son worked, at least for a while, at a place called Micah Tec--a call center that took a lot of religious/church calls during the week and also commercial calls. He could have earned the money. He could also have stolen credit card information from someone calling in to donate or order something (that happened to me once when I made a hotel reservation) or he could have stolen credit card info from his parents.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/communities/b ... ccd4a.html

They are a full-on Christian company, I am not surprised no one is speaking to the press. Any company would want to distance themselves, I'd think, but I can see management warning employees about talking since I'd think they wouldn't want to tie religion to the tragedy, either.

[salex]

They are a full-on Christian company, I am not surprised no one is speaking to the press. Any company would want to distance themselves, I'd think, but I can see management warning employees about talking since I'd think they wouldn't want to tie religion to the tragedy, either.

While I found corporate leadership names, I never found the company owner names. I wondered if the Hagee group was involved with it. Did you find anything linking the two, or giving ownership names?

[FundieFarmer]

Since it was planned likely the parent's credit card on the assumption parents wouldn't discover it since it would all be over by the time the bill hit?

That, or I was thinking perhaps they opened a card, or something along those lines. One of my sorority sisters had one of those unauthorized scam cards and racked up over $2k of debt before her parents caught on.

[mebeforee]

I think I was the one who mentioned they weren't involved in homeschool groups. It wasn't an assumption but may also not have been fully accurate - one of the articles I read said the local homeschooling communities didn't know of the family when they were contacted, but I don't think they specified who they spoke to. It's possible there were other groups in the area, or maybe that they sporadically participated but not often enough that they were really known by the others. It does seem like their neighbors barely knew the kids - never saw them outside, and one neighbor stated they'd never once seen a friend come to the house. That wouldn't be a red flag for one child necessarily but I do think it's suspicious since the had seven children, at least one of them would have likely wanted to socialize to some extent.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

While I found corporate leadership names, I never found the company owner names. I wondered if the Hagee group was involved with it. Did you find anything linking the two, or giving ownership names?

I don't know what the Hagee group is but Micahtek is privately owned by Mike and Pam Conners. There is a Pam Conners that posted on the Rhema Bible Church Facebook page (the one the Bevers were allegedly connected.)

I have no Facebook-fu so I can't find the post to see if it's the same Pam Conners - here's the google hit in case someone knows how to find the exact post.

Christian Church Rhema Bible - Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/rhemabiblechurch?fref=photo

Rhema Bible Church, Broken Arrow, OK. ... To connect with Rhema Bible Church, sign up for Facebook today. .... Jennifer Leigh Moore, Mike Johnson, Lovely Daisy and 67 others like this. ..... Pam Conners Preach and teach it, Lynette!

[salex]

I don't know what the Hagee group is but Micahtek is privately owned by Mike and Pam Conners. There is a Pam Conners that posted on the Rhema Bible Church Facebook page (the one the Bevers were allegedly connected.)

I have no Facebook-fu so I can't find the post to see if it's the same Pam Conners - here's the google hit in case someone knows how to find the exact post.

Thank you. Mike Conners is on LInked In as Micah Tec CEO since Feb and Marketing and Sales before then. Pamela Conners is listed as the owner (I see this all the time with Gov contractors... wife is owner, husband more or less runs the place, so that the company is a woman owned business... not sure the upside on a call center, but they may do hosting or other data support, they may go after gov. clients.

[EmmieJ]

I think I was the one who mentioned they weren't involved in homeschool groups. It wasn't an assumption but may also not have been fully accurate - one of the articles I read said the local homeschooling communities didn't know of the family when they were contacted, but I don't think they specified who they spoke to. It's possible there were other groups in the area, or maybe that they sporadically participated but not often enough that they were really known by the others. It does seem like their neighbors barely knew the kids - never saw them outside, and one neighbor stated they'd never once seen a friend come to the house. That wouldn't be a red flag for one child necessarily but I do think it's suspicious since the had seven children, at least one of them would have likely wanted to socialize to some extent.

The isolation of this family is striking. They lived in a neighborhood, surrounded by other homes, other families, yet none of their neighbors seems to have known them or the kids. What about extended family members? So far, I haven't read about any statements or interviews with an aunt or uncle, a grandparent, or any other adult relation of this family.

I hope that we (the public) are provided with some answer as to why this occurred, but considering how the media likes to focus on certain story lines and ignore others, what is published in the media is likely to be, at best, only a partial explanation. I wonder if the older son does have some form of mental illness, and then was able to manipulate his younger brother into doing his bidding. He would have had to have complete mental control though, to get him to participate in not only the murder of the parents, but of the younger siblings as well.

It just doesn't make sense, and that's what's so frustrating. I want to know why. I want to be reassured that this sort of thing could not happen to me or my child.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

I think I was the one who mentioned they weren't involved in homeschool groups. It wasn't an assumption but may also not have been fully accurate - one of the articles I read said the local homeschooling communities didn't know of the family when they were contacted, but I don't think they specified who they spoke to. It's possible there were other groups in the area, or maybe that they sporadically participated but not often enough that they were really known by the others. It does seem like their neighbors barely knew the kids - never saw them outside, and one neighbor stated they'd never once seen a friend come to the house. That wouldn't be a red flag for one child necessarily but I do think it's suspicious since the had seven children, at least one of them would have likely wanted to socialize to some extent.

No, you're right, local homeschooling groups were definitely quoted in articles saying the Bevers weren't involved. That could have changed, or like you said maybe it was so sporadic it wasn't noted. I don't know anything about homeschooling.

The neighbor thing is very curious to me. Honestly, I avoid neighbor chat like the plague and though we lived in our last neighborhood for 8 years I believe exactly one of our neighbors could you tell you my name so I get the appeal of keeping to yourself...but for an entire family to have the same temperament? I have to say, on a personal level, I don't understand how that much togetherness could be tolerable.

I love my husband and kids but there are far fewer of us and if no one ever left the house to go to work or school I think I'd jump off the roof. I could cloister happily at home with the dogs and cats and not need a break, but the humans? I honestly think if we were all together all the time it would affect me mentally to the point I'd need professional treatment to function. I've had the same thought when reading about the Maxwells - I would think seeing the same people, hearing the same voices all day, every day with no relief would be so untenable I'd think people would just breakdown and run.

Then again I hear about people my age with kids who vacation with their parents siblings on a regular basis and apparently that's normal, but I don't get that either so my togetherness setting must be set pretty low.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

The isolation of this family is striking. They lived in a neighborhood, surrounded by other homes, other families, yet none of their neighbors seems to have known them or the kids. What about extended family members? So far, I haven't read about any statements or interviews with an aunt or uncle, a grandparent, or any other adult relation of this family.

I hope that we (the public) are provided with some answer as to why this occurred, but considering how the media likes to focus on certain story lines and ignore others, what is published in the media is likely to be, at best, only a partial explanation. I wonder if the older son does have some form of mental illness, and then was able to manipulate his younger brother into doing his bidding. He would have had to have complete mental control though, to get him to participate in not only the murder of the parents, but of the younger siblings as well.

It just doesn't make sense, and that's what's so frustrating. I want to know why. I want to be reassured that this sort of thing could not happen to me or my child.

David's brother Terry commented briefly: http://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/bro ... -christian

2 Works for You spoke with David Bever's brother, Terry, who said he didn't see his brother often but they were close.

Terry Bever told 2 Works for You that the murders are a complete shock. He said his brother's family was God-fearing.

Terry Bever said most of the family lives out of state.

His sister Tamla (sp?) had commented on her Facebook page that they were in shock and she had to go and break the news about what happened to their mom. I can't even imagine having to do that.

I haven't seen anything regarding any other family members.

[Grimalkin]

No, you're right, local homeschooling groups were definitely quoted in articles saying the Bevers weren't involved. That could have changed, or like you said maybe it was so sporadic it wasn't noted. I don't know anything about homeschooling.

The neighbor thing is very curious to me. Honestly, I avoid neighbor chat like the plague and though we lived in our last neighborhood for 8 years I believe exactly one of our neighbors could you tell you my name so I get the appeal of keeping to yourself...but for an entire family to have the same temperament? I have to say, on a personal level, I don't understand how that much togetherness could be tolerable.

I love my husband and kids but there are far fewer of us and if no one ever left the house to go to work or school I think I'd jump off the roof. I could cloister happily at home with the dogs and cats and not need a break, but the humans? I honestly think if we were all together all the time it would affect me mentally to the point I'd need professional treatment to function. I've had the same thought when reading about the Maxwells - I would think seeing the same people, hearing the same voices all day, every day with no relief would be so untenable I'd think people would just breakdown and run.

Then again I hear about people my age with kids who vacation with their parents siblings on a regular basis and apparently that's normal, but I don't get that either so my togetherness setting must be set pretty low.

I think most of the neighbors were older. That ca explain not seeing much of them. We are the youngest family in my part of the block and I rarely see any of them. Different life stages I guess. There is another young family though.....I lived in my house for three years before I realized that three doors down the was a homeschooling family with five kids. my younger kids did try and interact with them but they did not seem interested. I never thought they were weird though, just shy. I have spoken to the grand parents and they are super nice. I really think its just different schedules.

[DaffyDill]

This incident and the discussion about it reminded me of a documentary I watched a couple of days ago by Louis Theroux, concerning mental illness, and the heinous crimes some people commit while in the thrall of their illnesses.

Louis was allowed into Summit Behavioural Healthcare Centre where patients who are found Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity are housed and treated. Some go on to stand trial when they are deemed fit, but not those found NGRI. He interviewed a man in his early to mid thirties who walked up behind his father and stabbed him until he was dead, a young guy who sexually assaulted his own mother (Louis also spoke to the mother), and an innocent looking elderly lady who stabbed another woman on a bus with a pair of scissors. It was really interesting, although not for the faint hearted, and at least tried to give an insight into their distorted thinking and views of reality when they committed their crimes.

I finished watching it mostly feeling just incredibly sad. Sad that such crimes happened, and sad that these people didn't receive the help they needed before they injured another person. The guilt the young man who assaulted his mother lives with is just crushing him, now that he understands what he did. And the elderly lady, despite all the medication, all the therapy, all the counselling and all the assistance she now receives, still thinks she is in the facility because she is actually Jesus Christ and it suits important people to keep her there.

All this just makes me wonder if one or both of those boys needed some kind of help and didn't receive it due to their parents beliefs; but what are the odds of two of them suffering the same psychosis (called a folie à deux).

From Wikipedia, so how accurate this is I am not certain; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folie_à_deux

This syndrome is most commonly diagnosed when the two or more individuals concerned live in proximity and may be socially or physically isolated and have little interaction with other people.

Various sub-classifications of folie à deux have been proposed to describe how the delusional belief comes to be held by more than one person.

Folie imposée is where a dominant person (known as the 'primary', 'inducer' or 'principal') initially forms a delusional belief during a psychotic episode and imposes it on another person or persons (known as the 'secondary', 'acceptor' or 'associate') with the assumption that the secondary person might not have become deluded if left to his or her own devices. If the parties are admitted to hospital separately, then the delusions in the person with the induced beliefs usually resolve without the need of medication.

Folie simultanée describes either the situation where two people considered to suffer independently from psychosis influence the content of each other's delusions so they become identical or strikingly similar, or one in which two people "morbidly predisposed" to delusional psychosis mutually trigger symptoms in each other.[6]

Mental illness is just so devastating to so many people, and yet remains woefully underfunded in most countries. Something needs to change, although things are better than even 20 years ago, but there is a long way to go.

[Mama Mia]

Or feel like nobody understands what you're going through, or that everything that is terrible is normal, or that everyone else is out to get you, or so many other things that could've played a part in this, just because they didn't have an additional frame of reference.

It's an empowering experience as an adult to learn that your suspect feelings about things being not-so-normal-or-right were correct all along. These kids never got that, and it's a shame what that isolation did.

On the other hand, if they had gone to school they very likely could have gone a classroom shooting spree.

[FundieFarmer]

That is tragically true.

[Mama Mia]

I guess for me the fact that adults have the legal recourse to make their own life choices regarding environment and to get help and kids that age are at the mercy of adults that it should factor in somehow. But how to do that without endangering others is the question.

This. This, this, this! Social services and the legal system for juveniles have not found balance and justice with this issue. It is profoundly difficult. Thank you for stating it so succinctly.

That brings up another question though. In my state, California, a juvenile aged 13 ( or maybe 12 or 14 - it's been awhile since I've had to know ) and over has the legal authority to obtain mental health services without their parents knowledge or consent There is also special funding provided by the state so that teens can access treatment independently of their parent's health insurance. For teens in public school there is generally a policy allowing teens to miss school without parents being informed if it's to obtain mental health, substance abuse or reproductive services. Should teens who have that legal ability to access care have an increased legal culpability if they commit a crime, relative to teens in states where they do not have that resource available?

I'm thinking of the fifteen year old boy who just raped and murdered an 8 year old neighbor. Everyone is describing him as sweet and friendly and helpful . His social media account wasn't particularly disturbing. A couple of lonely sounding posts and song lyrics. But mostly videos of goofing around with friends or doing yo- yo tricks.

So overall, presenting to the world as a good kid. But he must have known he was having awful, awful thoughts. He lived literally across the street from an agency that provided mental health counseling. Should he have been responsible for seeking out services? I'm curious as to opinions.

It's still very early in that investigation, it may turn out there were warning signs, or identified issues or he was in treatment. There is now a statement in an article that he was suicidal and killed this little girl just to see how people in the community would react to a child's death :shock: .

Eta: damn it, they released his name and it's a Latino name - which means all the comments on all the spews sites will turn into a racist screed :angry-banghead:

[HerNameIsBuffy]

http://www.tulsaworld.com/communities/b ... 80ca8.html

The girls are with relatives as of yesterday. I'm so glad Crystal had recovered enough to be leave the hospital and that they are with family.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

That brings up another question though. In my state, California, a juvenile aged 13 ( or maybe 12 or 14 - it's been awhile since I've had to know ) and over has the legal authority to obtain mental health services without their parents knowledge or consent There is also special funding provided by the state so that teens can access treatment independently of their parent's health insurance. For teens in public school there is generally a policy allowing teens to miss school without parents being informed if it's to obtain mental health, substance abuse or reproductive services. Should teens who have that legal ability to access care have an increased legal culpability if they commit a crime, relative to teens in states where they do not have that resource available?

I'm thinking of the fifteen year old boy who just raped and murdered an 8 year old neighbor. Everyone is describing him as sweet and friendly and helpful . His social media account wasn't particularly disturbing. A couple of lonely sounding posts and song lyrics. But mostly videos of goofing around with friends or doing yo- yo tricks.

So overall, presenting to the world as a good kid. But he must have known he was having awful, awful thoughts. He lived literally across the street from an agency that provided mental health counseling. Should he have been responsible for seeking out services? I'm curious as to opinions.

It's still very early in that investigation, it may turn out there were warning signs, or identified issues or he was in treatment. There is now a statement in an article that he was suicidal and killed this little girl just to see how people in the community would react to a child's death :shock: .

Eta: damn it, they released his name and it's a Latino name - which means all the comments on all the spews sites will turn into a racist screed :angry-banghead:

I've bern following that story (it's so horrible, it has really disturbed me. I have an 8yo daughter). One person commented on a forum that there was something "off" about him but most people in the community said he was nice and liked. I can't wrap my head around people who want to hurt and kill children. Sometimes the parents have contributed to the problem but often it seems like they were relatively normal and the kid just was...off.

[solacetea]

Is it horrible of me to worry that the mother posted on reddit that the family had a Bengal cat, and wonder if the cat is ok?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Is it horrible of me to worry that the mother posted on reddit that the family had a Bengal cat, and wonder if the cat is ok?

As I read this I has two of mine lying on me...I sure hope the the kitty is safe and reunited with the girls. I'm sure they need all the loves they can get.

[Mitz_]

Is it horrible of me to worry that the mother posted on reddit that the family had a Bengal cat, and wonder if the cat is ok?

Is it a recent post? I had wondered if they had ever had a pet and if it was ever harmed. I don't think it is horrible at all since everyone would like to know any clues about t5he boys that made them do this horrible thing. I think we are all aware of the link between animal abusers and murderers.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Is it a recent post? I had wondered if they had ever had a pet and if it was ever harmed. I don't think it is horrible at all since everyone would like to know any clues about t5he boys that made them do this horrible thing. I think we are all aware of the link between animal abusers and murderers.

Regarding clues they are planning on releasing the documents pertaining to this which can be released next Tuesday. They are also planning on releasing the 911 call over the prosecutors protests. Knowing what was said is one thing, but listening to the last moments of a child's life ...I don't see how that serves anyone. The tape is said to be gruesome - I hope the decision to release gets reversed.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

http://www.newson6.com/story/29681387/f ... y-killings

They have both been officially charged today.

Robert Davis Bever, 18, and Michael John Bever, 16, each face five counts in the stabbing deaths of their parents and three siblings at their Broken Arrow home on July 22, 2015.

Prosecutors also charged Robert and Michael Bever with Assault and Battery With Intent to Kill for multiple stabbings of their 13-year-old sister. She survived.

Detective say the brothers acted together when they killed their parents, David and April Bever, and their siblings Daniel, Christopher and Victoria. They are also charged in concert in the attack on the surviving sister.

Does anyone know if the fact that they are both facing identical charges means they both physically participated in each murder and the assault? Or would they both be charged with all anyway as it stemmed from a joint planned attack even if they harmed different people? I tried googling 'charge in concert' and got some stuff about how two different charges are in concert (like assault and battery are separate but charged together much of the time) but nothing yet as it applies to separate defendants.

Beyond the horror, the logistics baffle me. It happening late at night they probably had the element of surprise on their side with people sleeping, but assuming they killed their parents first to neutralize their biggest threats it would take both of them and that couldn't have been quiet - once the chaos erupted I am trying to imagine how they were able to keep everyone contained. That and being a quiet neighborhood with a lot of older residents, lots not that big so houses are fairly close together...you'd think it would have been loud at points, but no one seems to have heard anything. So strange.

Comment in another from an anonymous former coworker of Robert's from MicahTek about religion and homeschooling:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/me ... 6ec67.html

A former co-worker of Robert Bever’s at MicahTek, a Broken Arrow-based call center near the family’s home, described the 18-year-old on Monday as being quiet and “odd†and that he had an “inflated†sense of self. He would always walk to and from work — about 20 minutes each way, said the co-worker, who did not want to be identified.

She said he disliked home schooling and told her that his family, unlike him, was “very religious.â€

“He was so sure he would have gone to Harvard or Yale had he not been home-schooled,†said the co-worker, who left the company last year. “He thought he had so much potential that wasn’t being reached. He definitely thought of himself as extremely intelligent.â€

Robert Bever, she said, once told her that she was his only friend, and he would routinely say he did not want more friends because he did not like other people.

She said he never spoke badly about his siblings but instead shared stories at work about his youngest sister and how close he was to his brother Michael.

“I noticed his (Facebook) friends were either family or people he met from gaming online,†the former co-worker said, adding that he was almost always on the Internet. “He said (his family) was all close because they were in the house all the time.â€

http://www.fox23.com/news/news/local/br ... -ho/nm9Sh/

FOX23 confirmed that Robert Bever used to work down the street at the Micahtek call center. The HR director said they are working with employees to help the deal with the tragedy.

Kind of odd since it was said he worked there briefly a while ago (I swear there are no specifics in this whole case) and call centers have huge turnover so I was surprised they'd do that.

One last quote from the link above:

When contacted Monday, David Bever’s brother Terry Bever said while he understands the deaths are a national story, they remain a private matter to his family. However, he said he was still shocked at what occurred.

I totally get the need for privacy, but usually there is at least one rogue family member talking to the press. This level of control is seems pretty unusual.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

One last thing http://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/bro ... t-homicide

Police to hold a prayer service for victims? I thought this kind of thing was done by family or members of the community, but not law enforcement? Is this an Oklahoma thing?

BROKEN ARROW, Okla. - Broken Arrow Police Department will hold a prayer service following the tragedy at the Bever family residence.

"A Time to Heal Prayer Service" will be held Aug. 6 at 7 p.m. at the Indian Springs Baptist Church located at 7815 S. Elm Pl.

The event will be non-denominational and open to the community. Several community pastors will lead prayer and reflection. It is not expected to last more than an hour.

Robert Bever and his 16-year-old brother, Michael Bever, are in custody for the stabbing deaths of their parents and three of their siblings on July 23.

[TXGirlInAMaterialWorld]

It doesn't sounds like the family had any real connections to the local community. Maybe the police decided to step in and do a memorial because no on else was.