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Do the Duggars really understand forgiveness in light of their ordeal? Im not saying forgiveness should never happen or impossible.

I think

1)the offender must admit wrong

2) the victim has time to process what happened

3)know they dont ever have to forgive and if they do they never have to let that person in their life again.

I guess 3 is much harder when it's you own family member. Here's an interesting take from an older article on Patheos. I see no reason to break link.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnshore/ ... rgiveness/

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CorruptionInc.

Well the Duggar parents (they don't even deserve that title!) would've told the girls that they MUST forgive, there is no other way, Jesus said so etc.

Also being so sheltered and probably never used the internet at that point, they would've had NO idea that the "therapy" everyone was receiving wasn't even accredited or done by a professional.

Unfortunately they probably have never known as women that they do have RIGHTS just as much as men do.

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IrishCarrie

The part that really gets to me is this: they were abused, got no effective help with that, just Jesus and a direction to forgive their abuser, right?

I truly believe it's IMPOSSIBLE to move on and achieve closure in those circumstances.

So they're still carrying all sorts of conflicted feelings about it, they have to be.

And every time they have a feeling like ''I'm not really comfortable being alone with Josh' or 'Did Daddy really make the right choices in how he handled it?' or even 'I don't want to have sex again today. It's too much and its making me feel kinda violated' - they think they're the one with the problem!!! And they feel even more guilt and shame, for having feelings that ARE ENTIRELY NATURAL IN THE CIRCUMSTANCES!!!!!!!!

Forgiveness?.....don't make me laugh. Those poor, poor children.

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NoJulius
Well the Duggar parents (they don't even deserve that title!) would've told the girls that they MUST forgive, there is no other way, Jesus said so etc.

Don't the Duggars always state that you have to forgive or else you won't go to Heaven?

Not that their weird believes have ever been fair. But I think that they are forced to forgive (except you want to go to hell...) puts the victim under additional pressure.

Whenever they struggle with negative feelings they must always feel guilt because these struggles mean that they haven't yet forgiven. They cannot simply feel anger or sadness after the molestation even though it's natural to do so. And it is definitly NOT their part as victims to feel any guilt...

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FloraKitty35
Well the Duggar parents (they don't even deserve that title!) would've told the girls that they MUST forgive, there is no other way, Jesus said so etc.

Also being so sheltered and probably never used the internet at that point, they would've had NO idea that the "therapy" everyone was receiving wasn't even accredited or done by a professional.

Unfortunately they probably have never known as women that they do have RIGHTS just as much as men do.

Additionally, they have probably been told that women who think they are equal to men are lesbians and therefore God doubly hates them.

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lostfemme

That was a wonderful article from Patheos. Thanks for that! I don't think the Duggars have the capacity to understand the true nature of forgiveness or blame or the complicated reactions of victims. It's unfortunate but they were raised to have very lazy minds (and bodies, for that matter.) If anything contradicts their simplistic world view, they simply don't see it.

I know an MD, very smart woman, who was raised inside the evangelical fold. She spends so much of her private time debating with herself why she never got "it", the golden ticket from god, the mystical ray of complete love that her family insisted was their condition as Christians. I'd listen to her for hours, why she never felt this call and the incessant self doubt she deals with, even now, even after she broke free and became the only person in her family to have a great job. The rest of her family is a hair's breath away from poverty, her sisters loaded down with pregnancies and kids, yet she feels like the failure inside, since god never made sense to her or "touched her heart."

She was instructed since birth to forgive, forgive, forgive, be sweet, be sweet, etc. Whenever I mentioned she should be angry with her parents and furious about her upbringing, she would retreat into abject fear. She never even opened that door. It was shut too long ago by others.

To ask forgiveness, one has to first feel the anger and realize that forgiveness is not a constant. Like my friend, the Duggar girls won't even reach the point of actually feeling the natural fury over what was forced on them (by Josh and their parents.) They don't have the intellectual or emotional capacity for any complex internal conditions.

I fear that any Duggar who breaks this cycle of complete ignorance of their own feelings and thoughts is going to head right into drug addiction or some other self destructive life choices. One can see this so often, that the addict is the least sick person in the family dynamic, and the only one who understands the disconnect between the family dogma and the overwhelming feelings of rage that the addict tries to quell.

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ILoveJellybeans

I don't think they have any choice but to say they forgive, its been forced on them since it happened. I don't think they got proper therapy for it, just Gothard stuff, so they've probably not been allowed to process it in a healthy way. It kinda sucks to be a woman in fundie land.

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MisUndrstd

You know, forgiveness is a funny thing. I can forgive quite easily for minor transgressions against me. For example, if someone is rude to me or intentionally hurts my feelings... I readily forgive them. The forgiveness is not necessarily for the person who wronged me, but rather the forgiveness is for me. I forgive for the sole purpose of letting it go, I do not want someone who hurts me to have any more control over my life. I want to let their negativity go so they lose that power to affect me. I don't believe that forgiveness means anyone is absolved from their wrong doing, if punishment is deserved then they should most certainly pay the consequences. Forgiveness is a tool I like to use to more forward in my life, it's not for the perpetrator but rather it is for me. However, with that being said, I've never had to forgive someone for a major crime like molestation or the murder of my loved one. But what strikes me as funny is the fact that religious people feel they need to forgive because God says that they must. The Duggar girls, for example, did they forgive Josh for themselves or did they forgive Josh because they felt obligated to God to do so? Maybe there is a big difference is why you choose to forgive, maybe there isn't. Maybe forgiveness is just a cut and dry thing, who really knows. However, with that being said, I don't know how we can put stipulations on forgiveness, how can we say, before you forgive someone they must admit their wrong doing and be remorseful and ask for forgiveness. It's nice to think that someone would be ashamed enough to ask for forgiveness but if they don't do we not forgive? I think forgiveness is a personal thing, it's different for everyone and I'd rather not question it. Since the Duggar girls say that they have forgiven Josh, I'm inclined to believe that they have and I'm not going to question it because it is not for me to have an opinion on it. Yesterday, in the news several families of the Charleston Church killings loved ones went to court and told the murderer that they have forgiveness... WOW... can you imagine, forgiving that, so soon? But I'm not here to question why they did it, if they feel inclined to forgive I support them.. they were the ones wronged not me. So you see, forgiveness is not about what we think, it is about what the people who were wronged feel. May the forgiveness that the Duggar girls have given Josh be what the girls need to let it go and move forward, that is my hope for them.

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littlesunshine

"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive you." Matthew 6:14-15

This is probably the basis of Duggar understanding of forgiveness. In God's eyes, all sins are equal and we have all sinned. Therefore, it might hurt and it might take time, but Josh's actions are not unforgivable. From the interviews, it seems like the girls don't feel Josh's actions were as bad as we all seem to feel they are which means the girls would have had an easier time forgiving him of them.

It's possible and probable that the girls have truly forgiven. According to the Bible, none of your three steps need to happen.

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Mama Mia

I didn't like that patheos article because it seemed very presumptions to decide for other people what they must feel, how the offender must act, the process they must go through to get to forgiveness, what everyone else is telling them to feel --and even the feelings felt during the abuse! It sounded like the author ( or the author of the workbook they referred to ) was describing their own personal experience and generalizing it to everyone and every situation.

And I agree with MsUndrstd. , forgiveness can be completely for the benefit of the person who was wronged, and completely detached from the actions or feelings or statements of the offender.

I do agree though that no one should be forced to forgive anyone, or have contact with someone they don't want to.

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Here's another excellent article on the subject. I think forgiveness is a warped concept in all Christianity. It like giving permission to sweep things under the rug and not deal with reality. While your god(s)may forgive you, you still have to deal with earthly consequences.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfem ... eness.html

This jumped out at me:

Forgiveness is a warped topic in fundamentalist Christian circles where abuse is concerned. Jim Bob, Michelle, and Josh are using that language purposefully. They are tapping into the belief that no sin is too terrible for God to forgive and the mandate that we must forgive our trespassers as God has forgiven us. Together, these beliefs force victims in this subculture to shut up, sit down, and “make peace†with the people who have wronged them.
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Evangeline
it might hurt and it might take time

My concern is that they skip over this part. I don't think what Josh did is unforgivable, but forgiveness for something this major is going to be a process. You can't just snap your fingers and have it done, but people like the Duggars talk like that's all it takes. A friend of mine was violently raped by a family member when she was a child, and she says she forgives him. I believe her. However, it took years to get to that point, and she had to work through lots of hurt and anger. Her family didn't do a great job of dealing with it, but they didn't make her live with him and didn't demand she forgive 5 minutes after it happened.

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imjustasteph

I'm listening to the girls' audiobook now, and they talked so much about forgiveness, and how it works, which, apparently, is that somebody says they're sorry, and you forgive them then and there or else you're guilty of being bitter and selfish.

If that's the case, if that's how it was with 'forgiving' Josh, then no, that isn't forgiveness.

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BlackSheep
"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive you." Matthew 6:14-15

This is probably the basis of Duggar understanding of forgiveness. In God's eyes, all sins are equal and we have all sinned. Therefore, it might hurt and it might take time, but Josh's actions are not unforgivable. From the interviews, it seems like the girls don't feel Josh's actions were as bad as we all seem to feel they are which means the girls would have had an easier time forgiving him of them.

It's possible and probable that the girls have truly forgiven. According to the Bible, none of your three steps need to happen.

I agree that the girls may have truly forgiven. My post is about what the Bible tells us about forgiveness.

The Bible says that you must forgive, but this passage doesn't specify how to get to that point. Perhaps God leaves some things like that unsaid, in order to deepen our relationship with Him when we turn to Him for guidance on how to meet this standard. I believe that God doesn't want unthinking robot disciples. He made us as we are - and that includes our flaws and shortcomings, including our unwillingness to forgive in some cases.

The person who cut me off in traffic and nearly caused an accident? Yeah, I'm pissed. And when that person squeaks through the next green light and I'm stuck when it turns red? Even more upset. Eventually, after seething about what a jerk that person is, I end up thankful that there wasn't an accident.

Have I forgiven that person for what they did? No. All I end up caring about is that there was no accident. Is this good enough for God? According to the Bible, it isn't. Do I think that God cares that I didn't specifically forgive in this case? No, although I don't think that He'd like it if I carried around resentment and anger at that person for the rest of the day - or followed that person and harassed them. In this case, I think that God would just want me to shake the dust off my sandals and move on.

I'm not suggesting that Josh's victims should just move on. What happened to them was not a close call in traffic. I am suggesting that although the Bible provides says "you must forgive", God gets that we aren't always able to live up to that - maybe not right away, maybe not ever. He made us as we are - imperfect - and He doesn't want blind, unthinking followers. After all, He could have made us that way - but He didn't. He provided standards in the Bible that are sometimes difficult or even impossible to live up to. We might forgive, we might not. But I believe that in the long run, what matters with God is that we turn to Him with our problems and concerns. And if we are able to reach forgiveness, that's the ideal. If we can't, I think that God understands.

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littlesunshine

My concern is that they skip over this part. I don't think what Josh did is unforgivable, but forgiveness for something this major is going to be a process. You can't just snap your fingers and have it done, but people like the Duggars talk like that's all it takes.

I think now is a good time to remember that although the public was just made aware, the girls have been working through this for a decade. We don't know if they were asked to forgive Josh on the spot or allowed time. It's more likely that as young girls, they didn't feel like there was much to forgive and, as they've grown and understood more about what happened and the implications of it on their purity, family dynamics, and other aspects of their lives, they've needed to process it all over again. Good thing they've had like twelve years of relative privacy (in regards to this issue) to do so.

Also, it is possible to forgive instantly. While he was dying, Jesus forgave the guy next to Him on another cross - a convicted murderer, rapist, etc - because the man repented. So if we believe this is a family who follows the Bible and lives as Christians, it's very likely that they did try to forgive their brother the moment he asked them to.

"Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?†Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times." Matthew‬ ‭18‬:‭21-22‬

I make this point because, as far as biblical forgiveness goes, the Duggars actually did it right. They probably didn't get appropriate counseling for their children and they definitely didn't report the abuse in a timely manner, allowing it to continue, which is VERY BAD, but by their standard of forgiveness (and mine tbh), they did a pretty good job at forgiving like Christ forgives us.

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littlesunshine

I agree that the girls may have truly forgiven. My post is about what the Bible tells us about forgiveness.

The Bible says that you must forgive, but this passage doesn't specify how to get to that point. Perhaps God leaves some things like that unsaid, in order to deepen our relationship with Him when we turn to Him for guidance on how to meet this standard. I believe that God doesn't want unthinking robot disciples. He made us as we are - and that includes our flaws and shortcomings, including our unwillingness to forgive in some cases.

The person who cut me off in traffic and nearly caused an accident? Yeah, I'm pissed. And when that person squeaks through the next green light and I'm stuck when it turns red? Even more upset. Eventually, after seething about what a jerk that person is, I end up thankful that there wasn't an accident.

Have I forgiven that person for what they did? No. All I end up caring about is that there was no accident. Is this good enough for God? According to the Bible, it isn't. Do I think that God cares that I didn't specifically forgive in this case? No, although I don't think that He'd like it if I carried around resentment and anger at that person for the rest of the day - or followed that person and harassed them. In this case, I think that God would just want me to shake the dust off my sandals and move on.

I'm not suggesting that Josh's victims should just move on. What happened to them was not a close call in traffic. I am suggesting that although the Bible provides says "you must forgive", God gets that we aren't always able to live up to that - maybe not right away, maybe not ever. He made us as we are - imperfect - and He doesn't want blind, unthinking followers. After all, He could have made us that way - but He didn't. He provided standards in the Bible that are sometimes difficult or even impossible to live up to. We might forgive, we might not. But I believe that in the long run, what matters with God is that we turn to Him with our problems and concerns. And if we are able to reach forgiveness, that's the ideal. If we can't, I think that God understands.

This is a theological discussion which is very fun, but not so much about the Duggars anymore so sorry.

In the Bible, Jesus lived perfectly and was perfectly able to forgive because he was fully God and therefore fully removed from sin (aka Satan). However, since we are not God but of the world (aka sin and Satan) we are not able to live perfectly which includes not being able to forgive perfectly... if we rely on our own ability or the ability of things or other people of the world. However, all things are possible through Christ. If we bring our struggles to Him, he will help us to do impossible things like forgiving things that, if we relied on ourselves, we would not be able to forgive.

So yes, God "understands" that we are imperfect because we are naturally sinful, but our goal should be to look as much like Jesus as possible which is Biblically perfect. We cannot do it on our own and our sinful natures will always get in the way, but TRYING is important. The Heavenly Father wants us to chase after Him as he chases after us.

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calimojo

Well, if God forgives all, then he/she can forgive someone who is having trouble forgiving others, right? There are so many things like this in religion. On the one hand we are told something are never forgivable, and then on the other we are told no sin is too great to be forgiven.

My point though is that I believe the girls have probably forgiven Josh, at least in their limited understanding of what it means to them. They were young, and they have been told repeatedly that it wasn't a big deal, just a boy being curious. They aren't taught or encouraged to think deeply or critically about anything, particularly anything that their parents have told them, so as a result of being raised like that from infancy on, they probably just accepted what they were told and moved on.

It is possible, that as they reach adulthood and inevitably encounter the world a bit more, away from their parents, that they may start to question what they were told. I don't think forgiveness is permanent in all cases, especially if the person realizes that what they were told was not true.

If I were a shy and very sheltered 8 year old girl who was told my brother got a bit too curious about girls, and he peeked at me under the covers and might have touched me, but that he is going away for punishment/counseling, and when he comes back he was going to be fine. And if that was coupled with lessons about how boys are unable to control their urges because they are boys, then I wouldn't feel angry at Josh. I mean, in that situation, I would have been told for years that boys/men, have a hard time controlling their lustful urges, so much so that even seeing knees or shoulders could incite them to lose control, I would be more inclined to forgive Josh because I have been told repeatedly he can't help himself.

If, however, Jessa is talking with Ben, and she asks him, "Did you ever think sexy thoughts about your sisters" and he replies with horror "No Way, gross" (I hope he would answer that way), then Jessa might just tuck that into her brain and let it stew. Perhaps a little nugget of "hmm, maybe not all boys would feel this way or be curious about their sisters".

If Jill does the same with Derick, who of course had no sisters, but still would hopefully have the normal response of "no way, that's gross" then she might start to question things.

We can only hope that Jinger/Joy and Jana have the chance to interact with some outside the family and maybe will see that in fact, brothers groping sisters because they are just too curious, is really not all that common, nor is it viewed as no big deal. But in order for them to have those kinds of normal reactions from others they need to interact with people far removed from their cult because as we can see from the leghumper's reactions, many of them seem to think it is a pretty common and normal thing for boys to do.

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littlesunshine
Well, if God forgives all, then he/she can forgive someone who is having trouble forgiving others, right? There are so many things like this in religion. On the one hand we are told something are never forgivable, and then on the other we are told no sin is too great to be forgiven.

Hey, common misconception. If you've been saved, you will be able to forgive. Again, it might take time and it might hurt, but you will be able to forgive. If you cannot forgive, you probably need to take a minute to think about whether you know Jesus at all. Because if you did, if you knew what it was like to be forgiven, you would be able to forgive others. We love because He first loved us.

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calimojo

being saved has nothing to do with forgiveness imo. There are non-Christian people from around the world who understand and practice forgiveness. This isn't just a Christian concept.

My husband is atheist and he is far more forgiving than I am much of the time and I a a liberal Christian.

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I think forgiveness in the Duggar world probably means saying the words "I forgive you," and then figuring out what YOU did wrong to DESERVE what happened, which is wrong wrong WRONG. But if you make the victims say it enough, maybe they'll eventually believe what they say. Again, wrong.

But this is another example of how the kids are all treated like carbon copies. The girls went through this together, and the girls together all were supposedly ready to forgive at the same time. It's not real. I don't think the girls understand forgiveness when they were raised that they had to forgive penis-holders who hurt them.

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My guess is that a 33yo man has a different understanding of the ramifications of forgiveness than a tween.

But yes, I agree if you keep pounding it into their heads that they forgive X than it does get internalized to the point that they do.

ATM I can't remember if it's Buddhism or Hindu that says still do the chants even if you don't believe or feel them because if you do it enough, eventually you will. Same thing with forgiving Josh.

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Evangeline

I think now is a good time to remember that although the public was just made aware, the girls have been working through this for a decade. We don't know if they were asked to forgive Josh on the spot or allowed time. It's more likely that as young girls, they didn't feel like there was much to forgive and, as they've grown and understood more about what happened and the implications of it on their purity, family dynamics, and other aspects of their lives, they've needed to process it all over again. Good thing they've had like twelve years of relative privacy (in regards to this issue) to do so.

Also, it is possible to forgive instantly. While he was dying, Jesus forgave the guy next to Him on another cross - a convicted murderer, rapist, etc - because the man repented. So if we believe this is a family who follows the Bible and lives as Christians, it's very likely that they did try to forgive their brother the moment he asked them to.

"Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?†Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times." Matthew‬ ‭18‬:‭21-22‬

I make this point because, as far as biblical forgiveness goes, the Duggars actually did it right. They probably didn't get appropriate counseling for their children and they definitely didn't report the abuse in a timely manner, allowing it to continue, which is VERY BAD, but by their standard of forgiveness (and mine tbh), they did a pretty good job at forgiving like Christ forgives us.

Eh, I really, really doubt they did it right. I speak from experience with this type of family. They do not expect you to process it, they expect you to forgive instantly. If you can't do it instantly, it's you who are in the wrong. I used to attend a fundie-friendly church. I suffered a betrayal of the absolute worst sort, and while many people were great, even awesome about the whole thing, there were several whose only focus was on how I needed to forgive while my entire life was in shambles. This came directly from their belief in Bill Gothard's teachings. I know this because they handed me the book so I could read it and learn how to forgive. I am a Christian. I believe forgiveness is possible and preferable. I don't think the Duggars understood the gravity of the situation if their interview is any indication. The girls would have been pressured to say they forgive a very minimized version of events, not invited to do it in their own time and with full knowledge of what they were forgiving.

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DeFrauder
I'm listening to the girls' audiobook now, and they talked so much about forgiveness, and how it works, which, apparently, is that somebody says they're sorry, and you forgive them then and there or else you're guilty of being bitter and selfish.

If that's the case, if that's how it was with 'forgiving' Josh, then no, that isn't forgiveness.

It is certainly not healing. That is for sure.

My Fundie stepmother asked me for forgiveness (not for sexual abuse but certainly for abuse that is as serious). I guess that I "forgave her" when she asked me because I am nice like that. I didn't see her for a long time and then one day I saw her.

For some reason the abuse came up again. I don't remember how because it was 25 years ago last I saw her. I do not even think that it was a direct reference to the events. Anyway, she reacted in anger at me. SHe stood up (this part I remember!) and angrily stated that she had asked for forgiveness and that it was wrong of me to refer to the events. She was super mad.

I just cowered and told her again that I forgave her and didn't mean to upset her. I don't think that I saw her again after that.

My point in telling this story is that I agree with those who suggest the victims had no choice but to forgive. They are all a little young and experienced to even know what forgiveness is, especially in regard to serious crimes.

Forgiving a sibling for purposely breaking your toys, or tattling on you, or hitting during an argument (when small children) is not the same thing as forgiving a sibling for sneaking into your room at night and molesting you. It is just not equal.

However, in their fundamentalist universe, Josh has a right to forgiveness if he asks for it. The victim's salvation may even be thought to be at stake if they are unwilling to forgive.

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DeFrauder

I think now is a good time to remember that although the public was just made aware, the girls have been working through this for a decade. We don't know if they were asked to forgive Josh on the spot or allowed time. It's more likely that as young girls, they didn't feel like there was much to forgive and, as they've grown and understood more about what happened and the implications of it on their purity, family dynamics, and other aspects of their lives, they've needed to process it all over again. Good thing they've had like twelve years of relative privacy (in regards to this issue) to do so.

Also, it is possible to forgive instantly. While he was dying, Jesus forgave the guy next to Him on another cross - a convicted murderer, rapist, etc - because the man repented. So if we believe this is a family who follows the Bible and lives as Christians, it's very likely that they did try to forgive their brother the moment he asked them to.

"Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?†Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times." Matthew‬ ‭18‬:‭21-22‬

I make this point because, as far as biblical forgiveness goes, the Duggars actually did it right. They probably didn't get appropriate counseling for their children and they definitely didn't report the abuse in a timely manner, allowing it to continue, which is VERY BAD, but by their standard of forgiveness (and mine tbh), they did a pretty good job at forgiving like Christ forgives us.

Forgiveness is always "good for the soul", however, we have nothing to confirm if they "truly" have forgiven or if they claim they have but have not done all of the emotional work to get to the point where they can freely forgive.

The model of forgiveness that you describe relies on the idea that God or Jesus will soften the victim's heart through supernatural means. I have nothing to say about whether or not God or Jesus can or will do that. What I do have to say is that the feeling of forgiveness does not easily come to every wronged person and often they have to work very hard and over many years, even a lifetime, to get to that stage where they are truly ready to let it go. This happens even when dedicated Christians ask God or Jesus to help them forgive the person who wronged them.

When a dedicated Christian feels that they are supposed to forgive someone that hurt them very badly, but can't seem to do it despite a lot of trying and prayer---coupled with inadequate mental health supports---it is a recipe for disaster. Not only is it victim blaming, but it transfers the sin of the abuser to the victim.

So I have to disagree that the parents handled the forgiveness part correctly. Although, I will agree that they believe that they handled it according to Biblical principles.

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DeFrauder

It is possible, that as they reach adulthood and inevitably encounter the world a bit more, away from their parents, that they may start to question what they were told. I don't think forgiveness is permanent in all cases, especially if the person realizes that what they were told was not true.

If I were a shy and very sheltered 8 year old girl who was told my brother got a bit too curious about girls, and he peeked at me under the covers and might have touched me, but that he is going away for punishment/counseling, and when he comes back he was going to be fine. And if that was coupled with lessons about how boys are unable to control their urges because they are boys, then I wouldn't feel angry at Josh. I mean, in that situation, I would have been told for years that boys/men, have a hard time controlling their lustful urges, so much so that even seeing knees or shoulders could incite them to lose control, I would be more inclined to forgive Josh because I have been told repeatedly he can't help himself.

If, however, Jessa is talking with Ben, and she asks him, "Did you ever think sexy thoughts about your sisters" and he replies with horror "No Way, gross" (I hope he would answer that way), then Jessa might just tuck that into her brain and let it stew. Perhaps a little nugget of "hmm, maybe not all boys would feel this way or be curious about their sisters".

If Jill does the same with Derick, who of course had no sisters, but still would hopefully have the normal response of "no way, that's gross" then she might start to question things.

This is true.

Their world view is so incredibly narrow and they are all very young. Now that the outside world is telling them that what happened is far worse than they may have been led to believe, it is going to cause cognitive dissonance that will lead to inner emotional turmoil. Now that the older kids are getting married and leaving JimBob's umbrella of protection, they are going to be exposed to a lot more things and it will not be easy for them.

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      Destiny

      I survived ... Ish. I'm all moved again, another 1500 miles from where the cats and I were living before. I'm in the new apartment, and kitties are adjusting well. I've only cried 6 times since Saturday! #progress.
      By the way, sorry about the summer logo swap taking its sweet time. Real life was a little too much and it got forgotten. 
      · 0 replies
    • HermioneSparrow

      HermioneSparrow

      Please pray for me as I'm battling covid and not doing so well. 
      · 17 replies
    • WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?

      WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?

      A happy summer solstice to all northern hemisphere FJers! And a happy winter solstice to all southern hemisphere FJers! (I know it's already Monday is Australia, so I'm late for most of you.)

      ETA--Oh! I just checked, and the winter solstice is at 1:31 PM on Monday, June 21 in Eastern Australia Time. So, for once the time zones worked in my favor. I'm not late!
      · 0 replies
    • Bluebirdbluebell

      Bluebirdbluebell

      I'm so angry at the Bishops right now. Shit like this is why I left the Catholic church. They play politics so blatantly.  I hope this convinces more people to leave. 
      · 1 reply
    • Destiny

      Destiny

      I’m okay. I can do this. 
       
      (I’m not okay.)
      · 6 replies
    • Destiny

      Destiny

      I have an extremely stressful weekend coming up. If you can spare me and the kitties some good thoughts I’d appreciate it. 
      · 1 reply
    • Mrs Ms

      Mrs Ms

      One of my siblings has a work related thing coming up where they get to visit a fundie place. Has promised a detailed rundown of the encounter for me and another sibling via video chat. Not that I am jealous or anything….
      · 1 reply
    • BemusedByFundamentalism

      BemusedByFundamentalism

      My in-laws gifted me a hand crank Singer 127k family piece for my birthday. It's from 1926... whoaaahh I feel so loved! Any tips are welcome 😃
      · 4 replies
    • 47of74

      47of74

      They don't make movies like that anymore....
       
       
      And...oh yeah.  KHAAAANNNNNNNNNNNN!
      · 0 replies
    • HerNameIsBuffy

      HerNameIsBuffy

      My grandmother came from a town in Missouri of (now) population ~14,500 and 8 Baptist churches.  Not counting all the other denominations, that's just the Baptists.  
      MY grandfather came from Drimoleauge, Ireland which has a current population of ~450 people (not a typo) and 1 church and 5 pubs.  
      If I get a time machine take a wild guess which ancestors I'm going back to visit?  I'm not social, don't enjoy bars, and prefer to imbibe at home but sitting in a pub has to be better than being Godbothered to death by people pretending they don't drink.  
      Fun unrelated fact - Martin Luther spent so much time on the toilet he had a desk built so he could work there, and would take meetings while actively pooping.   He also wrote letters to people with vivid descriptions of his poops.   That should make everyone feel a little better about their work place and emails.
      · 2 replies
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