FJ points and laughs at IBLP basic & advanced seminar texts

[salex]

So if written messages are taboo why were the Duggars allowed to wear their anti-abortion t-shirts? Gothard doesn't fear that the women will be lusting for a feel of pecs and abs (or moobs and flab?)

These rules are so pointless!

I'm not sure (though the rules may tell us) that Gothard and his ilk think women lust over men or understand men's lust. Otherwise why would they have to be told to have sex with their husbands, and that men look at them lustfully, so they have to be careful. No one yells "NIKE" for the girls when a sexy guy walks by, do they?

[church_of_dog]

I'm not sure (though the rules may tell us) that Gothard and his ilk think women lust over men or understand men's lust. Otherwise why would they have to be told to have sex with their husbands, and that men look at them lustfully, so they have to be careful. No one yells "NIKE" for the girls when a sexy guy walks by, do they?

Don't think so, never saw that being discussed. Besides, for the girls wouldn't they have to yell "FLIPFLOP!" ?? :lol:

[halcionne]

Back to clear conscience topics. Basic, pp 56-60

COMMON RATIONALIZATIONS

• One of the hardest deaths to die is the death to pride. The mind is ingenious at devising reasons which will circumvent or postpone death to pride.
  
• Anyone who has ever experienced making things right will clearly remember the many reasons or excuses he had for not really having to go back to ask forgiveness. Here are a few common rationalizations. [more than a few--16 :pink-shock: ]

1. "IT HAPPENED A LONG TIME AGO."
   If it happened so long ago, why do you still remember it? Since you have remembered it for such a long time this is all the more reason to make it right.
   
2. "THE ONE I WRONGED HAS MOVED AWAY."
   With all the friends he left behind it surely would not be too difficult to find out where he moved. If he moved to another state, the telephone operator may be able to contact him so you can talk with him.*
   
3. "IT WAS SUCH A SMALL OFFENSE."
   At this point, the question must be repeated, "Has it been eating away at your conscience?" If so, it is big enough to be taken care of.
   
4. "THINGS HAVE GOTTEN BETTER.
   With uncanny regularity, those who purpose to go back and make things right with one with whom they're not getting along will find the situation improving before they ask forgiveness.
   So often this improvement is God's way of preparing the other person to forgive us, but we mistakenly use it as a reason for not asking for forgiveness.
   
5. "I'M JUST BEING TOO SENSITIVE."
   So is the person you've wronged! A sensitive nature is not something to shy away from but rather to develop. Strong spritual meat belongs to those who are mature Christians; in other words, those who by use have their senses exercised to discern between good and evil. (Hebrews 5:14)
   
6. "NO ONE'S PERFECT."
   That's true. But apparently the standard of perfection you have set is too low. Your own conscience confirms the fact that it is too low, and your conflicts with others stand as another witnes to this fact.
   
7. "THEY WON'T UNDERSTAND."
   You'll be amazed how clearly they will understand. Our job is to obey; God will take care of their understanding. If they appear not to understand, it may be that your asking forgiveness has caused them to be convicted about their own need to ask forgiveness. [ :pull-hair: ]
   
8. "MAKING IT RIGHT WILL INVOLVE MONEY WHICH I DON'T HAVE."
   Better to have an honest debt than a dishonest weight of conscience. Borrow the money if need be, or make arrangements with the one from whom you stole it to pay it back by installments. However, I have not yet known a case which involved money in which God did not clearly show His hand of power to provide. Here are the details of one unusual example:
   
   • A Christian businessman hired a Christian contractor to build a house for him. The businessman specifically instructed the contractor not to hire a certain mason, because he felt he would do inferior work.
     Several weeks later, the businessman came to inspect the progress of his house. To his amazement and anger, he found that the mason contractor whom he did not want had been hired. In a heated discussion with the Christian contractor, he expressed his displeasure at what had been done.
     Other sub-contract work was, in the opinion of the businessman, quite unsatsfactory and had to be corrected at extra expense. This led to further heated disagreement so that when a final bill was presented, it was refused.
     For seven years, the businessman ignored the $1,300.00 [$3,400 in 2015 x] statement which he had received from the contractor.
     Both men became active in youth work and one day they both discovered each other at an area youth conference. They avoided one another as much as possible for several meetings. Finally the conviction became so great on both sides that they met together after a meeting.
     The business man acknowledged that he was wrong in his anger and lack of Christian testimony and that his asking forgiveness was to be "backed up by his pocketbook." He asked the contractor to send him a new bill, and he would pay it.
     Later he assured me that he did not have the money to pay the account in full at that time.
     Within a week, the contractor, who assured me he had never expected to receive the money, sent a new statement: "In rechecking my bills for the job on your house, I believe that if you would discount my original bill by one-half, it would cover my expenses."
     This meant that the businessman had to raise $650.00 [$1700 in 2015 x] in order to clear his conscience. He gathered together $100.00 [$262 in 2015 x] for the first installment and sent it to the contractor.
     Three days later he received a letter from his employer. The letter began with the statement, "We are happy to inform you that because of your record, the enclosed bonu check is being sent to you."
     In the letter was a bonus check for $1,310.00 [$3,427 in 2015 x]! Not only did the Lord pay the $650.00 to the contractor, He gave an equal amount to the businessman--plus an extra $10.00.
     When I heard this, I could hardly contain myself for joy. I was, therefore, rather surprised that the businessman was not as enthusiastic as I was. He did not associate the check as God's provision for the debt but instead thought, "Well, I expected a bonus, although I didn't know how much it would be."
     One year later, he was also expecting a bonus check. He figured it would be about $1,000.00 [$2616 in 2015 x ;) ] Just before the close of the year, it seemed that God wanted to clarify that the $1,310.00 really had come from Him. He sent an electrical storm which struck the steeple and roof of a church insured by the businessman; and in that one claim, his bonus check for the entire year was practically wiped out!

[*]"I'LL DO IT LATER."

Procrastination is one of the worst enemies to a clear conscience. You can be sure that "later" if it ever comes, will never be as good a time as now! "Later" there will probably be other things to make right. Perhaps even because of death there will be no opportunity to gain forgiveness from those you wronged.

[*]"I'LL ONLY DO IT OVER AGAIN."

This is truly a statement from one who has never asked forgiveness in the right way! If you offend again, you must ask forgiveness again. You will discover that the pain of truly humbling yourself and asking forgiveness will be much greater than the pain of self-control.

[*]"THE OTHER PERSON WAS MOSTLY WRONG."

You don't have to live with his conscience. You do have to live with yours. No doubt he is also using this excuse for not making things right with you! When you make your 30 per cent or 20 per cent or 10 per cent right and forget the 70 per cent or 80 per cent or 90 per cent fault on his part, you will probably be surprised to hear him ask you to forgive him for his wrong. Someone has to begin the humbling process. Let it be you, and you will receive the greater blessing.

[*]"MY PARENTS WON'T UNDERSTAND."

I'm sure that Abraham's wife would not have understood if he had told her that he was going to sacrifice their son in accordance with God's command. Instead, he got up early in the morning and immediatedly obeyed God's Word. It is significant that there is no mention that he told his wife what he was about to do. Discussing God's clear cmomands with others is usually a method of procrastination.

However, if a parent stops you in your attempt to make something right, then you must follow his direction.

[*]"I'LL LEAVE THE WORST OFFENSE UNTIL LAST."

In asking for forgiveness, always make the worst offense right first. If you don't, you will find that abnormal guilt will center around little inconsequential wrongs which really don't need a special forgiveness.

[*]IF I PURPOSE NOT TO DO IT AGAIN, WON'T THAT BE ENOUGH?"

Not doing it in the future will not erase the wrongs of the past. The one you've wronged will not know about your purposing, and he will think your good behavior is a sly way to get something you want. This or a similar false accusation will be so discouraging to you that you might become bitter.

For example, if someone lied to you, they could tell the truth for months, but you would always remember the lie and wonder if they were telling the truth.

[*]"THEY'RE NOT CHRISTIANS--WHAT WILL THEY THINK?"

They will think that they have finally discovered a true example of a Christian. Here is an example of this:

A high school junior explained that she had cheated on an exam. However, she was not sure she should confess it to the teacher since he was not a Christian and probably would not understand. She was encouraged to go and make it right regardless of what he would think.

The next day after school she got up the courage and walked into his room. After telling him what she had done and asking him to forgive her (and to make her grade lower because of it), she heard him make this statement,

"Well, you're the first student who's ever come back to ask forgiveness for cheating. I'd say that you are the first example of a real Christian I've ever seen!"

The reward of those who gain and who help others gain a conscience void of offense toward God and man:

"Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God." Matthew 5:9

[*]"IF I GO BACK IT WILL GET MY FRIEND IN TROUBLE."

It needn't--if you go back in the right way. The basic requirement for asking forgiveness in the right way is to concentrate on only that which you have done. To involve someone else is to shift part of the blame. This is not complete death to pride.

• One or more of these rationalizations is all too likely to cause you to not follow through on even the first one on your list. I'll never forget the inner conflict I had the very first time I went back to ask someone to forgive me.
  From the beginning I began to rationalize. My first excuse was that it was such a small thing. (I had stolen some toy soldiers from a neighbor's yard.)
  "If it's too small," the thought came in surprising clarity, "why do you remember it after this long a time, and why is it on your conscience?"
  My next excuse was, "But they've moved away." Just then I remembered what their new location was.
  Following this excuse, I reasoned that they were not Christians and probably would not understand. But I knew God would answer by saying, "You obey Me, and let Me take care of their understanding."
  As I wondered just how important it was to go back and ask forgiveness, I was impressed with the idea that my growth and effectiveness as a Christian would be greatly diminished if I were not obedient at this point. How true that was!
  I went to the phone book and looked up their new address. Later, as I walked up their front walk, I must honestly confess that I was secretly hoping they weren't home. But then I realized that if they weren't, I'd only have to come back some other time. I knocked on the door and waited--half holding my breath and rehearsing what I was going to say.
  The door swung open and the father, with a pleased and surprised voice, invited me in. The whole family "just happened" to be in that living room when I walked in. First they asked a few questions about my family and the neighborhood. Then they asked, "Well, what brings you over here today?"
  I explained that recently God had convicted me of an offense I had committed against them and that I really wanted to make it right. I told them I was wrong for stealing the soldiers from them and that wanted to pay for them and would like to ask them to forgive me for taking them.
  Not only did they thoroughly and quickly forgive me, but our friendship was deepened in that visit. Later they told some friends that that visit was the greatest testimony of Christianity they had ever received.
  As I walked from that home several minutes later, I was filled with an inexpressible joy and freedom. I shall never forget this triumphant feeling. It has helped me to make other things right since.

*I hate that Bill Gothard's hopelessly antiquated writing style reminds me of Pops from The Regular Show, because I love Pops:

[DaisyD]

It's interesting to me that he can be so correct about conscience and apologies, and still have no idea about it in his life. I think someone else wrote this whole passage.

[FundieFarmer]

I heard an awful lot of those rationalizations in JB & M, and Josh's statements. Do these people even follow their own rules?

Plus, if long knotted necklaces draw to the waist, then what about the necklaces the Duggar girls wear that stop mid-chest?

[Evangeline]

I don't know about eye traps, but those sure are eye sores. :? They're also what most women at my IFB church wore in the 80s, thinking they were being quite modest.

[FundieliciousTaterTot]

I'm either really tired or the writing is terrible. What is happening in #8?? So some businessman decided not to pay a contractor he hired? But he is the owner or is he the employee? Why wouldn't the contractor take this to small claims court? So dumb

Also a random church burned down and wiped out his bonus? Why? He is an arsonist who was charged and had to pay damages? He paid for a new steeple? Or does gothard mean the insurance payout was more than his bonus check from his mystery employer? (I thought he was self-employed) Did he pocket the insurance payout? Isn't that insurance fraud?

Not going to count the ?s here. Sorry I'm a little Faulkner-esque today ha

[Snarkle]

While reading through the "Common Rationalizations" my mind immediately went to Josh Duggar. How many of those do you think he used (and JimBob and Michelle)? At least half?

[Dandruff]

I'm not sure (though the rules may tell us) that Gothard and his ilk think women lust over men or understand men's lust. Otherwise why would they have to be told to have sex with their husbands, and that men look at them lustfully, so they have to be careful. No one yells "NIKE" for the girls when a sexy guy walks by, do they?

Good question. I think women are considered responsible for men's lust, and their own lust is irrelevant. The woman mustn't provoke a man's lust outside of marriage, refuse a man's lust within marriage, and she's responsible for protecting her brothers ("Nike") and Gothard knows who else from defrauding women. It's probably fine to encourage a husband's lust and it's definitely not fine to encourage another man's lust, even if the encouragement only exists within the man's head.

[16strong]

I know this is an old text, but I love how the advice to apologize to someone who has moved away is to ask an operator for their number. :lol: I guess Facebook is too evil and tempting. But what do I do if the operator's voice is sexy?

[halcionne]

While reading through the "Common Rationalizations" my mind immediately went to Josh Duggar. How many of those do you think he used (and JimBob and Michelle)? At least half?

This is exactly why I posted the clear conscience stuff--to try and apply it to situations we've seen with Gothardites. I got bogged down with real life over the last few weeks, but I hope to start posting again soon.

[smittykins]

Does Gothard even consider women capable of lusting, or does he think they just tolerate sex to please their headships(and of course, make BAYBEEZ)?

[Angelic83]

Does Gothard even consider women capable of lusting, or does he think they just tolerate sex to please their headships(and of course, make BAYBEEZ)?

They don't tolerate it, they see it as their duty to god and their husband ;) It's nothing to tolerate is their godly duty

[circularlogic]

I'm not sure if this has been done. I've been a lurker for many years and a participator for about a year. I remember recently that someone bought the Advanced Seminar book and shared its content with us, though I am not sure if that included workbook info.

I found them at the embassy institute website as I tried to view some of the videos....lo and behold the workbook pdf download was right there for the taking - without registration. There is alot of material and i think the best way to get anyone the info if they want it is to either direct them to the website or I could email you the folders in which I saved them.

Please let me know if I am repeating someone elses efforts. Also, PM me if you want me to send the info to you. I'm getting ready to dig in and try to wrap my head a little more around the worldview and thought process of the Gothardite...should be an interesting day!

[halcionne]

This is great! What a find. I was posting exerpts from the textbooks, before the aJoshalypse and real life took most of my time, but I don't have workbooks. I've been meaning to update that thread once things settle down for me. Please share anything that gives you a chuckle. This post is a mess; I had the two thoughts running through my head together and I couldn't separate them. :D

[ElegantMajesticPearls]

I'm not sure if this has been done. I've been a lurker for many years and a participator for about a year. I remember recently that someone bought the Advanced Seminar book and shared its content with us, though I am not sure if that included workbook info.

I found them at the embassy institute website as I tried to view some of the videos....lo and behold the workbook pdf download was right there for the taking - without registration. There is alot of material and i think the best way to get anyone the info if they want it is to either direct them to the website or I could email you the folders in which I saved them.

Please let me know if I am repeating someone elses efforts. Also, PM me if you want me to send the info to you. I'm getting ready to dig in and try to wrap my head a little more around the worldview and thought process of the Gothardite...should be an interesting day!

where on the website is the download link?

[circularlogic]

on the embassyinstitute.org site there are videos for each session of the basic and advanced seminars. they are not all viewable without a subscription BUT in the lower right corner below the video cast screen you will find a link to a pdf file. ALL of them are accessible and downloadable....

Now, maybe we can link the abovementioned text from halcionne....she really got the winner there! - with the worksheets and make some sense of the madness (or at least peek into the minds of these folks).

If you don't feel like downloading each one indivually, I have them all in folders marked Basic and Advanced Seminars respectively. i can send them in one shot.

I made a half hearted effort at copying the outline on the main page but it got tedious and I moved on the the meat of it all.

Not sure how to send these things or if i can upload them here....would someone please advise??

edited for spelling

[church_of_dog]

aJoshalypse

This is truly beautiful.

:worship:

[AmazonGrace]

Basic, pp 53-54:

[snippity snip...]

After the mother explained, the little girl asked her brother, "Don't you ever lie?" He replied, "Yess. When I was your age, I did." In surprise, she asked, "Haven't you lied since?" His emphatic answer becomes extremely significant in the light of our need to build responses to overcome temptation.

"No. It's just not worth it! If you lie, you have to go back and tell the truth anyway, and then ask forgiveness, and is just not worth it!"

:liar:

Any time someone tells you they never lie it's probably a lie :D

[Bretta]

I tried to see if this has been posted before, but couldn't find it in the search.

 

This is another gem from the Advanced Seminar Textbook. I went and dug it up, shook off the dust, and then stumbled on this very relevant advice the organisation should take a look at -  IBLP's advice on the 7 godly steps to choosing a secretary (that will prevent sin).

[FundieFarmer]

My gosh, that requires a whole page? Here's mine.

1. Pick a qualified person of either gender who meshes well with your team.

2. Don't be a dick and control yourself.

Seriously that's it. None of this shit about your secretary helping you prioritize your marriage.

[Bretta]

Exactly. Why the assumption that secretaries are female? Why the assumption that secretaries are out to destroy marriages?

These rules didn't even seem to work within the organization itself!

On 14/07/2015 at 2:12 PM, FundieliciousTaterTot said:

So if written messages are taboo why were the Duggars allowed to wear their anti-abortion t-shirts? Gothard doesn't fear that the women will be lusting for a feel of pecs and abs (or moobs and flab?)

 

These rules are so pointless!

Though they are big on rules, the rules change a LOT. For some fundies, jewelry and make-up would be no-nos. The Duggars have changed themselves, after all, they aren't wearing those dresses and jumpers with huge collars anymore. Ten years ago, I bet the girls would not wear t-shirts, let alone shirts with words. In any case, what one would wear to a rally would be different than what one would wear to the ATI family conference. Most ATI people I know dress like normal people and save the khaki skirts for the conference!

 

I've been to ATI conferences, and the part that was weird to me even then was that the girl's seminar would be all about modesty, purity, courtship etc. etc. while the boys activities (ALERT) didn't mention those things at all. It's completely one-sided, but the fact is that these are the things most conservative girls are interested in (the equivalents of dating and fashion to normal girls).

[CTRLZero]

We are so out of touch with current business practices.  My husband didn't even know it was an option to request his secretary bake him a special pie.  Now it's too late, as he is retired.