FJ points and laughs at IBLP basic & advanced seminar texts

[December]

Commenting so I can read this thread more thoroughly later.

But from my skimming... :wtf: thanks for reading for and sharing with us!

[FundieFarmer]

Oh Burris, that's wonderful. Here's what I've found from reading the post you shared, and its predecessor. All snark is directed at ATI/IBLP, not the author, who seems to have her wits about her in her description of working there, over a few posts:

Bill Gothard doesn't read the papers, but it's cool if his sister sees perversion.

Bill Gothard himself had told his followers that he would not risk the dangers of reading a newspaper with its unwholesome advertising, but let his sister clip out items of interest from U.S. News & World Report to leave on his desk.

Extend my piano? Is that a euphemism?

This was a world of endless forwards and chain letters and “Reply all†and spammers offering to extend your piano by four inches.

I mean yes. They also made up a few many of their own.

The male sexagenarians who led Gothard’s Institute may not have had a lot of experience evaluating claims. Perhaps their schools had not offered exercises in distinguishing fact from opinion.

Great, so now we can add End Times Phobia to their craziness, past even what the Rapture says.

Like many other evangelicals, Bill fell for it. I say fell for it, but really he spread the panic. Staff ordered large quantities of survival supplies (including kerosene stoves and lanterns) which ALERT packaged into kits and marketed to ATI families at Knoxville that year. At several hundred dollars apiece, many families could ill afford the Y2K kits, but maybe the peace of mind was worth the investment.

:?

I could easily be what we called a "lifer"--the kind of girl who would only "leave in a white dress or a black box".

Ditto Scientology accounts, and also accounts of the FLDS.

I had been around long enough to know that staff members sometimes disappeared overnight. They were just...gone. No explanation was ever offered. You could come down to breakfast and they had simply vanished. I didn't want to be one of those.

[DowntownAbbey]

• FAMILY CONFLICT #1
  • "Friday I came home for lunch and both of my brothers were there. When I came in the door, the first thing my younger brother said was, 'What are you doing here?' I said that I came home for lunch. Then he said, 'Well, you can just go back to school where you belong.' Since they were there before me, they should have had my lunch ready. But they hadn't done a thing. I said, 'Why didn't you fix me something?' My brother said, 'We didn't feel like it!'
    
    "When I asked why they were acting that way, they said that it was noen of my business. We had a few wrong words. After this, I ended up going back to school without eating lunch and by being very disappointed with my brother [sic]. I want very much to get along with him. I hope the Lord will show me how this is possible."

Well, no wonder this family is having problems--the kids aren't home schooled! Just look at how the world has corrupted this family.

• FAMILY CONFLICT #3
  • "Well, I was sitting in front of the television--naturally. My dad came in and told me to go and do something besides watch television. So I went over and got one of my friends. We were playing in the garage and were hitting the door with a basketball when my dad came out swearing at us as he always does.
    
    "I said, 'Well, you don't have to swear about it.' He said, 'I'll swear if I want to.' I told him, 'Not around me. Swear some other place.' Well, this set off the fuse. He grabbed a stick from the garage and came at me, swinging. I told my friend to scatter. [Who talks like this?! It's like Sharks vs Jets] He ran one way, and I ran the other.
    
    "We went over to his house and my friend told his mother what had happened. She said he can't come over anymore. At this rate I'll lose all my friends. When I came home, my dad said, 'If you don't stop causing trouble, I'm going to stick you in a home.' He always threatens to stick me in a home."

What does that first sentence even mean? The placement of naturally in that sentence just seems odd to me. Also, look at the corruption of this family from the world. If only they didn't watch tv. I think it is telling that verbal and potential physical child abuse is labelled simply as "family conflict."

[bekahdimples]

What does that first sentence even mean? The placement of naturally in that sentence just seems odd to me. Also, look at the corruption of this family from the world. If only they didn't watch tv. I think it is telling that verbal and potential physical child abuse is labelled simply as "family conflict."

Serious verbal abuse.

And he's just afraid to loss his friends.

Halcionne what is the advice to these kids?

[halcionne]

Serious verbal abuse.

And he's just afraid to loss his friends.

Halcionne what is the advice to these kids?

I think we're working our way up to that. I got sidetracked reading and posting in the rest of FJ today, and now it's time for dinner and TV. I will follow up tomorrow.

[Rita]

Continuing with Basic, Page 43 [nonsensical bullet points are the author's--bear with me while I tinker with formatting to make this shit look somewhat readable--please provide feedback if you have any]:

EXCUSING GUILT WITH BLAME

THE BALANCE OF GUILT

THE SPLINTER AND THE BEAM

THE DESTRUCTIVE POWER OF WRONG ATTITUDES

• It is essential that we recognize and confess wrong actions against those whom we have offended. But it is even more important to discern, confess and change wrong attitudes which were either caused by or resulted from our wrong actions.

This is usually more dificult than we realize. We are so involved with our own thoughts and emotions that we fail to realize the attitudes which we are actually relecting to the people around us.

More than we realize, people are reacting to our attitudes. It is, therefore, essential that we learn how to "judge ourselves" in wrong attitudes in order that we are not judged by others.

The following illustrations are used by permission of teen-agers who wrote themout for this purpose.

So, judging people - that thing we're not supposed to do - is required?

What about those judged and found good?

I'm for real confused.

ETA: Also formatting is persnickety to fix.

Hail Halcionne!

[tapdancer493]

I don't know if this has been posted yet, but it certainly makes for an interesting read.

This blogger claims to have worked as a secretary for Gothard's organization back when he discovered the wonders of e-mail - and also of e-mail hoaxes such as the tourist who woke in a bath-tub without kidneys, somehow, or the disease-infected needles left on theatre seats by angry gay AIDS-fairies (I added that last bit about the gays, but I doubt I'm far off the mark as to what Gothard was thinking at the time):

Michael was allegedly fired for that laugh - and because her brother was deemed unfit for his job...

I guess she was too old to continue acting as Bill's eye-candy, no longer being the naïve jailbait the old man - who still lived with his mother at the time, if I have the timeline right - preferred for company.

I highly recommend reading the whole courtship story. It's a really in-depth look at how courtship works, and she writes about what she was thinking/feeling at all different parts of the courtship. She's also a pretty good writer. Takes a little bit of time to read it, but once I started I was pretty engrossed in the story.

[slickcat79]

What does that first sentence even mean? The placement of naturally in that sentence just seems odd to me. Also, look at the corruption of this family from the world. If only they didn't watch tv. I think it is telling that verbal and potential physical child abuse is labelled simply as "family conflict."

I'm sure this will end with it being almost entirely the child's fault. He was watching TV like ALL THE TIME, strike #1. And then he dared to backtalk his father. Once he learns how to be a properly obedient child, his father won't have cause to abuse him anymore. Problem solved. *beam*

[halcionne]

Basic, page 45 [i haven't read ahead and have no idea when, or whether, the previous "conflicts" will be addressed. My comments are in brackets, surprise!]:

STEP 1: LIST THEIR OFFENSES

• The first step in solving conflicts with a particular person is to privately list all the offenses which he has committed against you. (This is in preparation to follow Matthew 18.)

[The following is a checklist with boxes to mark on the left]

• PROMISING TO DO SOMETHING FOR ME AND FAILING TO KEEP THE PROMISE
  
• PUNISHING ME FOR THINGS I DIDN'T DO
  
• BEING TOO STRICT IN PUNISHING ME FOR THINGS I DID DO
  
• GIVING MORE ATTENTION AND LOVE TO OTHER MEMBERS OF THE FAMILY
  
• REFUSING TO UNDERSTAND WHY I DO CERTAIN THINGS
  
• SETTING A POOR EXAMPLE FOR ME
  
• TELLING ME NOT TO DO THINGS I SEE THEM DOING
  
• TAKING OUT THEIR FRUSTRATIONS ON ME
  
• EXPECTING TOO MUCH WORK FROM ME AT HOME
  
• NOT BEING THERE WHEN I NEED THEM
  
• _______________________________________________________

Welp, I was expecting something more along the lines of what we did wrong, not what they did wrong...

[halcionne]

I typed up the next page and FJ ate it. I'll try again later, when I'm less annoyed. :x

[Fascinated]

Basic, page 45 [i haven't read ahead and have no idea when, or whether, the previous "conflicts" will be addressed. My comments are in brackets, surprise!]:

Welp, I was expecting something more along the lines of what we did wrong, not what they did wrong...

Is this a trick? Look forward to next installment to see if this will begin to make sense.

[halcionne]

Hey Fascinated I looked up Leviticus and Deuteronomy references in Basic and there were only three between them, with no mention of abomination. I just checked Advanced, which I forgot to do the other day, and there are a ton of instances for each book, so I'll look into that soon.

[Fascinated]

Hey Fascinated I looked up Leviticus and Deuteronomy references in Basic and there were only three between them, with no mention of abomination. I just checked Advanced, which I forgot to do the other day, and there are a ton of instances for each book, so I'll look into that soon.

Thanks, halcionne. Please don't make a special effort, but I am interested as to whether it is discussed at all. It could be seen as a relatively benign word that seems to have convicted so many that homosexuals should be executed, or at least hated. I am very curious to see if it is addressed in these teachings. But, again, just if you come across it as you walk through your journey. :D

[refugee]

Basic, page 45 [i haven't read ahead and have no idea when, or whether, the previous "conflicts" will be addressed. My comments are in brackets, surprise!]:

Welp, I was expecting something more along the lines of what we did wrong, not what they did wrong...

How does this coincide with the 1 Cor. 13 admonition that "love does not keep a record of wrongs"? Oh, wait, I imagine that only applies to followers, regarding the leader (s).

[halcionne]

How does this coincide with the 1 Cor. 13 admonition that "love does not keep a record of wrongs"? Oh, wait, I imagine that only applies to followers, regarding the leader (s).

Yes, refugee! Hoist them by their own petard! I love it. :clap:

[refugee]

Also, all this reminds me of an old boyfriend. He nursed his grievances and wrote out lists of rules that would make for idealized life. He would have been the type of person to write such examples from his own childhood with alcoholic parents, and he would have written down the other person's errors before trying to resolve conflict (because maybe they weren't paying attention to being wrong).

Sheesh, he might have become the next Gothard...

[halcionne]

Page 46!

STEP 2: LIST YOUR OFFENSES

• It is relatively easy to remember the faults of others, but when it comes to listing our own faults, we may discover a lapse of memory. To compensate for this difficulty, the following questions are suggested:
  
  • POOR ATTITUDE
    If your parents were to rate your attitude around the house, would they say it was above average, average or below average?
    
  • UNGRATEFULNESS
    When is the last time you thanked your parents for the ordinary things they do for you, such as providing meals, working to maintain a home, car and other benefits?
    
  • STUBBORNNESS
    What is your immediate response when asked to do something around the house? [Checklist ahoy]
    
    • I do it immediately
      
    • I tell them I'll do it later
      
    • I ask them why someone else can't do it
      
    • I ask them why it needs to be done
      
    • I tell them I can't do it

    [*]UNTRUTHFULNESS

    Have you done anything to cause your parents to lose confidence in you?

    Have you told them only part of the truth at times so that they would agree with you?

    Have you made decisions on your own which your parents should have made with you?

    [*]BITTERNESS

    Have you been harboring resentment and bitterness for things your parents have done toward you?

    [*]LAZINESS

    How neatly have you kept your room? How often have you spent time watching television when you knew you should be doing other things?

[slickcat79]

I hate the idea that your kids should be grateful to you for basic things like food and a roof over their heads. That is the absolute bare minimum that should be expected from you as a parent. Your kids didn't ask to be born, you had them because you wanted them, and you have a responsibility to provide for them. Yes, you want them to be polite and well-mannered, but FFS aren't they at least entitled to their own emotions?

Fundie parenting is shit :evil-eye:

[FloraKitty35]

I hate the idea that your kids should be grateful to you for basic things like food and a roof over their heads. That is the absolute bare minimum that should be expected from you as a parent. Your kids didn't ask to be born, you had them because you wanted them, and you have a responsibility to provide for them. Yes, you want them to be polite and well-mannered, but FFS aren't they at least entitled to their own emotions?

Fundie parenting is shit :evil-eye:

I was raised with that idea of being grateful for the roof over one's head and the food in one's stomach and my father wasn't a religious man (thank goodness). My father liked arguments, if everyone had agreed with him all of the time it would have bored him to death. (The difference was that unlike fundies, my parents encouraged me to read the newspapers and watch the news, and to be able to hold an intelligent conversion.)

[bekahdimples]

I highly recommend reading the whole courtship story. It's a really in-depth look at how courtship works, and she writes about what she was thinking/feeling at all different parts of the courtship. She's also a pretty good writer. Takes a little bit of time to read it, but once I started I was pretty engrossed in the story.

Thanks. I did and its a fantastic read.

[bekahdimples]

I was raised with that idea of being grateful for the roof over one's head and the food in one's stomach and my father wasn't a religious man (thank goodness). My father liked arguments, if everyone had agreed with him all of the time it would have bored him to death. (The difference was that unlike fundies, my parents encouraged me to read the newspapers and watch the news, and to be able to hold an intelligent conversion.)

I'm not sure if you should thank your parents for providing you a home food ect. But you should be greatful if you have these things. Was reading something just today where a man says at my apartment I have a faucet that releases both cold and hot water. Some people don't even have access to clean water and I have TWO kinds of clean water.

If they are religious they should thank god.

[DowntownAbbey]

I find it interesting that they put listing others' faults first, then your own. My initial thought was someone in the ATI camp takes the JOY acronym a little too seriously. But now I'm thinking it could almost be some sort of pseudo-psychological approach to make the others' faults seem to either be caused by our faults or just not as severe in light of our faults, especially given the fact that this is written regarding parent-child relationships and the fundie propensity to blame the victim.

[alba]

I find it interesting that they put listing others' faults first, then your own. My initial thought was someone in the ATI camp takes the JOY acronym a little too seriously. But now I'm thinking it could almost be some sort of pseudo-psychological approach to make the others' faults seem to either be caused by our faults or just not as severe in light of our faults, especially given the fact that this is written regarding parent-child relationships and the fundie propensity to blame the victim.

This is one of those situations where I think fundies take a reasonable idea to extreme levels. I mean, it's a good idea, in general, to consider if *you're* causing the conflict. There are definitely times my parents and I argued that were entirely my fault. And it's also a good idea to realise that it could be the other person's fault, too, because sometimes you really have done nothing wrong.

So, yes, I see nothing wrong with teaching children to distinguish between situations where they have upset others and situations where someone has harmed them, either without provocation or disproportionately to their own actions. However, this whole "listing what they've done to you then listing what you did wrong" really to me seems to be a way of making people feel guilty and telling them their feelings are petty. Sure, your dad beat you, but you were watching TV, weren't you? :roll:

[IrishCarrie]

I commented a couple of pages ago that that I found all of this hilarious and was really enjoying it....but I'm actually getting kinda depressed the more i read :? :? :? :?

These people are BATSHIT crazy. And I knew that, of course I did, but actually reading this stuff in detail is just.........words fail me..... :roll:

[apple1]

I commented a couple of pages ago that that I found all of this hilarious and was really enjoying it....but I'm actually getting kinda depressed the more i read...

First - thankfully - the family I grew up in was not - not even in a remote, secondhand manner - involved in any of the Gothard stuff in any way.

However - I believe I have posted this before - as an adult, I attended a rather mainstream church for about 5 years - where it turned out that the pastor and certain other families were heavily into Gothardism. It was all on the sly (as it is apparent, this on-the-sly thing is how Gothard operates). The name Gothard was never mentioned. I never saw one of the Gothard books. Never. We just knew that certain families took their "vacations" to go to "homeschool conventions". No one else in the church realized (myself included) the source of much teaching from the pulpit. But reading now what was taught in the books makes it clear the actual source of what was taught from the pulpit in that "mainstream" church.

Eventually, it became apparent that the non-IBLP families were not wanted. Long story short - thankfully, myself and my family left (we were actually pushed out). Today, a once thriving church is now really only the pastor and part (even some of his family are gone) of his family and just a couple of other people. The other families that were involved in IBLP now have adult kids - and mostly, those kids have turned into very messed up adults with lives that have many issues.

For all these reasons, I personally have a very difficult time laughing about this stuff. It has caused an incredible and really unbelievable amount of harm to a very large number of people.