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halcionne

FJ points and laughs at IBLP basic & advanced seminar texts

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halcionne
halcionne, I'm curious to know if there is a definition for 'abomination'?

No, not in the indices at least. The books each have appendices that list the biblical references, so I'll look up Deuteronomy and Leviticus, I guess.

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GiggleOfGirls

It's like Christmas morning!!! Thank you for doing this.

I have some of Huckabee's history DVDs and I must say that I've considered watching them just to share the crazy here, but I haven't worked up the nerve yet. Also, I don't want to watch them with my children around, because misinformation, so that is also problematic.

All that to say, Thank you again for subjecting yourself to the crazy for our benefit!

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apple1
I don't know the bible very well, but I get the distinct impression that Gothard twists it even more than a run of the mill, cherry picking christian would. Please share your thoughts on this; I know there are folks here who have many differing (but all superior to this poppycock, I'm sure) interpretations of scripture. Educate me! This is a perversion of the bible, right? Please say yes!

You would be correct.

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Marian the Librarian
From Basic, page 113: [Taken from a chart again, so it may get awkward; my comments in brackets]

I don't know the bible very well, but I get the distinct impression that Gothard twists it even more than a run of the mill, cherry picking christian would. Please share your thoughts on this; I know there are folks here who have many differing (but all superior to this poppycock, I'm sure) interpretations of scripture. Educate me! This is a perversion of the bible, right? Please say yes!

Great. Swelling. Words. Of Vanity!!

Our Billy is so clearly obsessed with all things sexual, and keeping people from doing them - Musn't Musn't Musn't!!!

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Satisfied
church_of_dog

Great. Swelling. Words. Of Vanity!!

Our Billy is so clearly obsessed with all things sexual, and keeping people from doing them - Musn't Musn't Musn't!!!

:pearlclutch: :handsex:

I really want "possessing his vessel" to be a euphemism for something...

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GotCaughtDancing

Thank you Halcionne. this is pure gold.

I find it completely insane that one would follow Gothard after cracking these books open. The same can be said for Scientology after reading parts of Dianetics. I see a lot of similarities between the two in a way I can't quite verbalize (obviously very different). I was a member of that craziness for a long time, but I hadn't read dianetics - my course in was a bit different. Anyway I am seeing red flags of stupid popping up immediately, lol.

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CloakNDagger

Ironic, indeed. I'm reading 9-11 as a call not to associate with hypocrites, too. :whistle:

Um, yeah, but they almost all missed that these last few go-arounds!

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FundieFarmer

:pearlclutch: :handsex:

I really want "possessing his vessel" to be a euphemism for something...

Or a post count title :lol:

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halcionne
Thank you Halcionne. this is pure gold.

I find it completely insane that one would follow Gothard after cracking these books open. The same can be said for Scientology after reading parts of Dianetics. I see a lot of similarities between the two in a way I can't quite verbalize (obviously very different). I was a member of that craziness for a long time, but I hadn't read dianetics - my course in was a bit different. Anyway I am seeing red flags of stupid popping up immediately, lol.

I feel the same way! But everything I know about Scientology I learned from ONTD during Katie's escape drama, which is just enough to be horrified. I feel awful for people who get stuck in groups like that.

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halcionne

Okay so Basic is divided into eight sections: SELF IMAGE, RESPONSIBILITY, CONSCIENCE, RIGHTS, FREEDOM, SUCCESS, PURPOSE, and FRIENDS. The title of the CONSCIENCE section is GAINING THE INNER RADIANCE OF A TRANSPARENT LIFE: A CLEAR CONSCIENCE and there are bullet points as follows (found on page 41):

  • IMPERATIVES OF A CLEAR CONSCIENCE
  • RATIONALIZATIONS HINDERING A CLEAR CONSCIENCE
  • BASIC STEPS IN GAINING A CLEAR CONSCIENCE
  • CAUTIONS IN GAINING A CLEAR CONSCIENCE

and a footnote, which is circled AND bulleted:

  • A clear conscience is listed in Scripture as one of our most essential weapons for successful spiritual achievement.
    (I Timothy 1:18, 19)

I know "my conscience is clear" is a standard phrase, but I seem to remember Josh or some Duggar saying it with regard to his molestation scandal (I could be wrong--I'm not going to look it up right now) so this caught my eye. We also know that Bill Gothard himself has had to clear his conscience of a lot of things :whistle: . Of course, I can't reproduce the whole section here, but I'm going to try and share the "steps to gaining a clear conscience." It's several pages long and there's no clear cut beginning (and I may lose interest :wink-kitty: ), so we'll see how it goes. I didn't even see "steps to gaining a clear conscience" anywhere, but I found myself on step one, so clearly that's what the author intends. I think it's an important topic since the Duggars and their leghumpers are so eager to move on from the scandal and don't seem particularly interested in processing their feelings, or, you know, pondering any legal repurcussions. It's all about forgiveness!

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halcionne

So, let's start on page 42:

DEFINITION OF A CLEAR CONSCIENCE

  • A clear conscience involves that inner freedom of spirit toward God and others that comes by knowing that God's Holiness is not offended by one's thought or action, and that no one can point a finger at you and say, "You've offended me, and you've never asked for my forgiveness."

SCOPE OF A CLEAR CONSCIENCE

(line drawing that implies self)-->GOD-->FAMILY-->RELATIVES-->EMPLOYERS, TEACHERS-->FORMER FRIENDS-->OTHERS

"Others" covers a whole lot of people, and they are at the bottom of this totem pole. It seems that "others" even includes current friends, which means they rank lower than former friends, and apparently so does the general public. I guess that makes sense if you're trying to "clear your conscience" with a former friend, but other than that, I don't get it. We need to obtain the 32 hours of video that accompanies the book for more information. :lol:

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Puzzled
Fascinated
So, let's start on page 42:

"Others" covers a whole lot of people, and they are at the bottom of this totem pole. It seems that "others" even includes current friends, which means they rank lower than former friends, and apparently so does the general public. I guess that makes sense if you're trying to "clear your conscience" with a former friend, but other than that, I don't get it. We need to obtain the 32 hours of video that accompanies the book for more information. :lol:

That's very interesting. I'm looking forward to the section that explains how we are to KNOW that God's Holiness is not offended (other than the obvious thoughts-in-our-own-heads type deal).

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halcionne

Continuing with Basic, Page 43 [nonsensical bullet points are the author's--bear with me while I tinker with formatting to make this shit look somewhat readable--please provide feedback if you have any]:

EXCUSING GUILT WITH BLAME

IDENTIFYING THE PROBLEM

  • The greatest single hindrance to gaining a clear conscience is the feeling thta the ones we offended were wrong too! In fact, we often feel that they were mostly wrong. Our focus on blaming them balances our own guilt and forces us to live with both guilt and blame.

THE BALANCE OF GUILT
  • It is our natural inclination to find other people or circumstances which are to blame for what we have done in order to justify or excuse our offenses.

The greater our guilt, the more we must blame. The resulting bitterness and guilt are devastating to our mental and emotional balance.

THE SPLINTER AND THE BEAM

  • A "splinter" and a "beam" are actually the same size when viewed from reverse perspective.

When we sense that our brother is offended because of "some little thing we did to him," we must remember that in his eye this "little thing" is a beam!
We may think we were only 10 percent wrong, but in his eye we were 90 percent wrong.

THE DESTRUCTIVE POWER OF WRONG ATTITUDES
  • It is essential that we recognize and confess wrong actions against those whom we have offended. But it is even more important to discern, confess and change wrong attitudes which were either caused by or resulted from our wrong actions.

This is usually more dificult than we realize. We are so involved with our own thoughts and emotions that we fail to realize the attitudes which we are actually relecting to the people around us.

More than we realize, people are reacting to our attitudes. It is, therefore, essential that we learn how to "judge ourselves" in wrong attitudes in order that we are not judged by others.

The following illustrations are used by permission of teen-agers who wrote themout for this purpose.

["Illustrations" will be omitted because I find them to be self-serving and probably not actual quotes from teenagers :evil-eye: ]

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DowntownAbbey


So believing in the concept of defrauding would prevent one from having a clear conscience because defrauding places blame on someone other than yourself, right? Or at least it would in a logical world.

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halcionne
So believing in the concept of defrauding would prevent one from having a clear conscience because defrauding places blame on someone other than yourself, right? Or at least it would in a logical world.

I agree. There is a lot of doublespeak here. Some of the clear conscience stuff says to be very careful not to blame your victim, but we all know how that worked in real life for Bill Gothard. :roll:

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DowntownAbbey

1 Timothy 1:18-19 KJV":3oyp1wfu]18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;

19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

Not exactly sure if this is significant or not, but I find it interesting that they changed good conscience to clean conscience.

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SoybeanQueen
Also I may be wrong but in the abstaining talk the math seems to add up to day 14 of the reproductive cycle which in most cases would be the day of ovulation. What I am getting from the story is said couple was not actually barren and waiting until optimum fertility allowed them to conceive. :angry-banghead:

The sister-mom in charge of his homeschooling wasn't real strong on the science.

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SoybeanQueen

11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[a] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

Uh oh. Better revoke Gothard's invitation to the pot providence meal!

And DPIAT's.

And Smuggar's.

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Burris

I don't know if this has been posted yet, but it certainly makes for an interesting read.

This blogger claims to have worked as a secretary for Gothard's organization back when he discovered the wonders of e-mail - and also of e-mail hoaxes such as the tourist who woke in a bath-tub without kidneys, somehow, or the disease-infected needles left on theatre seats by angry gay AIDS-fairies (I added that last bit about the gays, but I doubt I'm far off the mark as to what Gothard was thinking at the time):

The next morning, Bill must have checked his email. Michael [the author's brother] and I were sitting together in the morning staff meeting when, after the usual hymns and prayer, Bill advised us all of yet one more reason to commit never to enter a cinema: AIDS-contaminated needles in theater seats. Michael and I immediately recognized yet another urban legend and while I smirked and raised my eyebrows, Michael--never one to mask the truth--let out a short guffaw. Voluntary or involuntary, his insubordination was noted.

Michael was allegedly fired for that laugh - and because her brother was deemed unfit for his job...

What I do remember is being in my new bedroom organizing and unpacking my things when I got a phone call on the house phone late that night. It was my parents.

Dad was driving down to get me in the morning, they said. I was confused. Michael had been fired; I understood that. But he had a car. Why was Dad--? Bill Gothard had called them. Just a few minutes earlier, apparently. His office stood just yards from my window, but he had said nothing to me. Bill wanted me gone, too, they said, not just Michael. It was after eleven in Michigan. Dad would leave early and arrive by noon; the Suburban could easily haul our bicycles and all my luggage. Stunned, I stopped unpacking.

I guess she was too old to continue acting as Bill's eye-candy, no longer being the naïve jailbait the old man - who still lived with his mother at the time, if I have the timeline right - preferred for company.

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Meh
refugee

What. The. Actual. Fuck.

How do you judge a 2-day-old baby's perfection, anyway? Is it the absence of health issues? That applies to most babies. What about a lack of baby acne? Maybe this baby has some speshul divine glow because she's her parents super speshul godly blessing.

Or, you know, no doctor said that ever.

I bet he says that to all new parents...

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halcionne

We're skipping page 44, which consists of 4 "family conflicts" On second thought, they might be fun. Here we go! NB #2--wtf

  • FAMILY CONFLICT #1
    • "Friday I came home for lunch and both of my brothers were there. When I came in the door, the first thing my younger brother said was, 'What are you doing here?' I said that I came home for lunch. Then he said, 'Well, you can just go back to school where you belong.' Since they were there before me, they should have had my lunch ready. But they hadn't done a thing. I said, 'Why didn't you fix me something?' My brother said, 'We didn't feel like it!'

      "When I asked why they were acting that way, they said that it was noen of my business. We had a few wrong words. After this, I ended up going back to school without eating lunch and by being very disappointed with my brother [sic]. I want very much to get along with him. I hope the Lord will show me how this is possible."

  • FAMILY CONFLICT #2
    • "While I was washing the floor, my little sister came in. (She had been out playing.) I asked her to get upstairs and help my other sister clean her room. She just gave me one of those looks as if to say, 'Just who do you think you are--giving me orders?'

      "Then she bluntly said, 'No!' Mom was on the phone, so I took matters into my own hands and began to help her walk up the stairs. I ended up dragging her by her arms. It didn't hurt her, but to make trouble, she began to scream and cry as if I were trying to kill her."

  • FAMILY CONFLICT #3
    • "Well, I was sitting in front of the television--naturally. My dad came in and told me to go and do something besides watch television. So I went over and got one of my friends. We were playing in the garage and were hitting the door with a basketball when my dad came out swearing at us as he always does.

      "I said, 'Well, you don't have to swear about it.' He said, 'I'll swear if I want to.' I told him, 'Not around me. Swear some other place.' Well, this set off the fuse. He grabbed a stick from the garage and came at me, swinging. I told my friend to scatter. [Who talks like this?! It's like Sharks vs Jets] He ran one way, and I ran the other.

      "We went over to his house and my friend told his mother what had happened. She said he can't come over anymore. At this rate I'll lose all my friends. When I came home, my dad said, 'If you don't stop causing trouble, I'm going to stick you in a home.' He always threatens to stick me in a home."

  • FAMILY CONFLICT #4
    • "Dad, Mom and I were at the breakfast table when we started discussing my future occupation. Somehow I said the wrong thing! I said that my life as a married woman would have little outside activity, etc. I gave Mom's as an example of such a life. I didn't mean for it to cause friction, but it sure did! She told me I was ungrateful, unwilling to help around the house, etc., etc. I said many things I shouldn't have. It's so-o-o hard. I lover her very much, but we always have a tense feeling between us."

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quiversR4hunting

Not exactly sure if this is significant or not, but I find it interesting that they changed good conscience to clean conscience.

It is interesting that they changed good conscience to clean.

And for everyone (like me) that can't read the KJV- I swear it's like I am not reading English every single time I read a stupid passage from it!

Let's compare the NIV:

18 Timothy, my son, I am giving you this command in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by recalling them you may fight the battle well, 19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith.
So in context Paul is giving all of his prophecies to Timothy and reminds Timothy (in verses 12-17) that Paul was the #1 sinner but the Lord saved him. So yeah...it says to have a good conscience but it doesn't say to force people to forgive you nor that people MUST forgive you to get a good conscience. Bill G should be crowned #1 cherry picker of all time.

*edit to finish thought

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quiversR4hunting
#1 cherry picker of all time

:lol:

:worship: Halcionne for reading this poppycock.

And double :worship: :worship: for sharing it with all of us.

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Meh
refugee
Introduction from Basic [my comments in brackets again]:

I tried to space the bullet points out for ease of reading, but FJ software insisted on single spacing. Sorry.

About doing the seminar"over and over" -- don't know how much pyramid scheme it would be, in terms of profit (unless there are lots of products to buy there; don't know, never been to one) but friends told us "the beauty" of attending once is that alumni get in free ever after.

So maybe it's more a matter of renewing the mind brainwashing. Or...?

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