Twelve Tribes - Did They Start the Denver Fire??

[Mary C Doates]

Report on the BBC website about children being removed from the Twelve Tribes group in Bavaria:

 

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23977577

 

They're apparently a Christian fundie group that believes in corporal punishment of children. I've never heard of them before, but the article said they originated in in U.S.. Anyone have any information about them?

Edited January 6, 2022 by nelliebelle1197
adding tags

[apple1]

I also never heard of them before now.

I'm willing to bet there is more to this story than what is in that article, though.

[bettertomarry]

WIki has a whole page on them. Pretty interesting Messianic group that came about in the 1970's. They have some wacky beliefs about children, and are pretty fundie on the scale.

I only know of them because I once ate at their restaurant in Dorchester (Ma not UK) years ago, but then realized they were likely a cult and so didn't go back. The restaurant closed in 2011.

[mrs]

:shock: Wow.

I think I am currently reading a former members blog -> twelvetribes-ex.com

[Khan]

I can hear the shrieks of protest if a raid like this happened in the US. "I have a legal right and moral obligation to discipline my kids as I see fit!" :angry-banghead: "God said to beat 'em with sticks!"

[GawkingToo]

Here's their website: twelvetribes.com

[dianapavelovna]

As always, if "are you a cult?" pops up in your FAQ, you probably are.

Also love this:

Q: Doesn’t your leader teach members to lie to courts, police, or other public officials?

A: No. The following quotation, supposedly taken from our teachings, has been published in a number of places [Eugene Spriggs is speaking]: “Our definition of lying means the intentional deception of those who have a right to know. Are we obligated to tell the Devil the truth? Do the courts have a right to know what you know? Not telling the truth to someone who doesn’t deserve to know the truth isn’t lying.â€

...

Judge for yourselves. Here is what we actually taught about lying. As you can see, it upholds cooperating with authorities in the pursuit of justice:

Our definition of lying means the intentional deception of those who have a right to know. They need to know for the sake of justice and righteousness — then we are obligated to tell them the truth... Moses, Rahab, Samuel — did they have the obligation to tell the devil the truth? Are we obligated to tell the devil the truth? Do the courts have the right to know what you know? And what will the outcome be? ...Telling the truth may cause serious harm to an innocent party. Such intentional deception may be moral and must be determined by judging whether someone has a moral right to know the truth for justice sake.

So, how do you judge? Is it immoral to withhold information in order to protect the innocent? Those who quote isolated sentences from our teachings to prove a point, while not quoting others that reveal the proper context, are withholding information. Is it moral to withhold information in order to slander the innocent?

[maybeizfundie]

Commune/cult group. They've popped up a time or two when I was researching other groups. I knew they had groups in several countries but it is totally weird to think of them in Bavaria. Wow.

[snarktastic]

There's a group of them in the UK too twelvetribes.com/node/2921

I suspect the British authorities would also be popping round for a chat if they think hitting kids with implements is a good idea, don't think that's actually legal here.

[Mary C Doates]

Here's their website: twelvetribes.com

Well, that's a whole lot of crazy...

If you have to spend pages and pages explaining how you aren't a "cult", I think people are going to get pretty suspicious.

[niagarahauls]

I can hear the shrieks of protest if a raid like this happened in the US. "I have a legal right and moral obligation to discipline my kids as I see fit!" :angry-banghead: "God said to beat 'em with sticks!"

Yeah, I'm kind of surprised fundies of this flavor would chose to leave the U.S. where child beating is so much more accepted.

[ems]

I posted a thread on them after I encountered two of their businesses in Plymouth, MA when I was there for a wedding.

The french toast at their bakery/cafe place was pretty yummy, but I feel bad now that my father's money went to support what is quite evidently a child-abusing cult. :?

[ems]

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=18736&p=603761&hilit=+twelve+tribes#p603761

[Aurora rising]

It´s the same "if you love your son, don´t spare the rope"-shit. :angry-banghead:

They only got the kids out because a journalist was filming undercover: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/bayern/vorwuerfe-gegen-glaubensgemeinschaft-wer-spielen-will-wird-verpruegelt-1.1766378

Not only the parents, but every adult was allowed to "correct" the children which means that they could never feel safe. Poor kids, I hope the don´t have to go back.

And of course: No public school, no health insurance... :snooty:

[Anny Nym]

At first, a big KUDOS to the couragious reporter who brought this to the attention of the public and probably saved some lives. Not to think about it if they would have discovered him...

They also took children from another sect, the "Sonnenkinder"/"sun children" - they deprived children of sleep and adequate food and had a very suspicious guru.

[meep]

I've known about them for a few years...I got a cultish vibe from them but hadn't heard anything scandalous about them up until now.

They've got LOADS of little intentional communities all over the world. I've seen them constantly posting ads for people to join their community on co-op sites.

[Iokaste]

"Fundies in Bavaria" for some reason sounded like a Sherlock Holmes story to me :lol:

Anyway, yes I've heard of them before, I believe there is a group in England as well, if any of our english FJ'ers would like a close-up fundie encounter maybe there's your chance?

I remember seeing several "documentaries", wedding-videos and "peek into our lives"-film on youtube.

They are one more group claiming a "biblical"-lifestyle, complete with "israelite" clothing, communal living, no individual property, all in a lovely mix with good hippie attitudes and values, as I believe they have their roots in the Jesus-movement/ christian hippies culture.

[formerlyfundie]

I talked to one of the women who is part of a new establishment of theirs about a 45 minutes from here- it was one of the more interesting hours of my life.

In a nutshell, she said they weren't Christians, and "didn't have a religious affiliation besides living for Yahweh", and was adamant about the false nature of churches in America. She was a younger looking lady, with three children (that's how we connected in the first place, my two year old was playing with her daughter who was a bit older, very quiet but smiley. I have three as well, very young, and she was very complimentary of that) and she said she'd been a part of the community for about 6 years. I got the sense her older son was born outside of the community because he looked older than six and looked BORED out of his mind. He wasn't singing and dancing like the other members, just sort of sitting alone. She had a 14 month old who was wrapped TIGHTLY in a blanket, mind you it was mid spring and hot here in TN, later on I went to read how they swaddle kids as a form of discipline to make them sit or be still. :? She was praising natural births (which mine were too) and was saying how 9/10 babies are born with a midwife on the "farm". They also extend nursing for as long as possible and have a very specific diet for the kids to "calm down their childish energy but still give them energy to work"...I have NO clue what that means btw. There were 2 other teenage looking girls kind of circling around our conversation, I guess to hear what she was saying? She said when you join they give you a new Hebrew name, but didn't say much of the process of handing over all your money, belongings, etc.

Oddly enough we share a lot of similar views on some things, so it was a good conversation, but I couldn't get over the hesitation the little girl who was playing with my daughter had towards just playing...she had a look I can't really describe. Like she was looking for approval to be a kid for a minute. I have read that they don't encourage imaginative play as it is "a waste of time", which is a problem because my son is a power ranger or ninja turtle daily. She encouraged us to visit, but I passed, thought about it, sure, but passed. I'm one of those people who is convinced WAY too easily, so I'm glad I read up on them. I am still fascinated and think of the woman often.

[Anise]

Libby Anne posted this recently: www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2 ... arris.html

I've also heard some rumors that the Romeikes (of the case for asylum fame) belonged to the Twelve Tribes.

[MamaJunebug]

Wanna hurl. Two of their businesses are nearby in southern Missouri: a furniture manufacturer ($5,000+change for a dining table and five chairs) and a café that's gotten consistently good reviews but is up for sale as of July 2013.

Must go do something to get this out of mind. When I hear about cults being this close I want to go visit them and press the local leaders' heads together in the style of Moe to Larry and Curly. :doh:

ETA that info is from the ex-Twelve Tribes blog mentioned above.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Saw this on facebook. Not exactly a salacious article, but it's just one small look into what families go through when a member leaves and joins a group like this.

I can't even imagine if one of my kids ended up in a group like this. I would want to do the same thing.

 

nbclosangeles.com/news/national-international/Twelve-Tribes-Community-Vista-Kidnapping-Foothill-Drive-306378441.html?_osource=SocialFlowFB_LABrand

 

 

Quote

Deputies in north San Diego are investigating a kidnapping involving three people who allegedly tried to rescue a family member they believed was being brainwashed by a religious community.

The San Diego County Sheriff’s Department said three suspects were arrested in connection with the kidnapping of a 23-year-old man from the Twelve Tribes Community/Church in Vista Friday.

 

Deputies stopped the bizarre kidnapping around 5 p.m. in the 1500 block of Foothill Drive.

The sheriff’s department said a deputy responding to a different incident in the area thought he heard a car crash on a nearby street. He then saw two vehicles – a gray van and a red van – speed away from the scene.

 

Believing this was a hit-and-run, the deputy called for backup. Additional deputies tried to pull over both vans, but both vehicles failed to stop.

A pursuit began, but ended shortly thereafter on Foothill Drive.

Lightning Beat Blackhawks 4-3

At that point, deputies detained four people from the red van and one person from the gray van. While asking questions, deputies learned the incident was not a hit-and-run, but rather a chase that stemmed from a kidnapping that had happened minutes earlier at a house in Vista that also serves as the Twelve Tribes church.

Investigators said the gray van was pursuing the red van in which the victim was being held by the suspects.

 

 

Quote

Members in north San Diego live together in a home in the 2600 block of Foothill Drive that doubles as a church. The Twelve Tribes also has a farm in Valley Center, about 18 miles away from the Vista location. Members also own The Yellow Deli, a restaurant located at 315 East Broadway in the Vista Village.

 

wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Tribes_communities

 

 

Quote

The Twelve Tribes' beliefs resemble those of Christian fundamentalism and the Hebrew Roots movement; however the group believes that all denominations are fallen, and so refuse to align themselves with any denomination or movement.[2] They do not identify as Christians, believing that Christianity is the Whore of Babylon.[28][29]

 

They believe that in order for the messiah to return, the Church needs to be restored to its original form seen in the Acts 2:38–42 and Acts 4:32–37. This restoration is not merely the restoration of the 1st-century church, but of a new Israel consisting of Twelve Tribes in twelve geographic regions.[2][12]

 

Part of this restoration is the return to observing the sabbath, maintaining Mosaic law[11] including dietary law, and Jewish feasts.[11][30] This interpretation of the prophesied restoration of Israel,[3] combined with the perceived immorality[31] in the world leads the group to believe the end times have arrived, though no date has been set.[32]

 

The group rejects the traditional Christian duality of heaven and hell; instead believe in what they term the Three Eternal Destinies.[34] They believe that after the Fall of Man every person is given a conscience;[34] and that after dying every person goes to a state of being called death[35] regardless of faith.[34] Upon the second coming, believers will be brought back for the thousand years to reign with "Yahshua" before the last judgment.[34] At the end of this thousand years, all the nonbelievers will be judged according to their deeds and be put into two groups: the righteous, filthy/unjust.[34] The filthy and the unjust will be sent to the Lake of Fire while the righteous will go to a place in heaven.[34]

 

Courtship within the Community involves a "waiting period"[14][38] in the which the man or woman expresses their desire to get to know the other person.[36] The couple then receives input from the community while spending time together.[36][38] The couple is betrothed (engaged) if their parents (or the entire community, if they are adults) confirm their love and compatibility;[7][36] the couple is then permitted to hold hands.[38] Weddings are dramatized preenactments[37] of what the group believes will happen at the end of time when "Yahshua"returns to earth for his bride.[14][36]

Children have been noted to play a central role in the group's eschatological beliefs,[7] as future generations of the group are to be the "pure and spotless bride" of Revelation.[7][36] Many children within the group are born through a home birth with a midwife where local laws permit, though a hospital may sometimes be used.[11][36] Children are homeschooled,[3][7][11][26][32][36] by both parents and others within the group.[36] Their curriculum includes learning to read, arithmetic, writing, history, religion and dance.[32] Commercial toys are used sparingly, along with blocks, puzzles, and sewing kits. Television, radio, and video games are regarded as time-wasters or worldly indoctrinating mechanisms. Within the group teenagers may take on apprenticeships in the group's cottage industries to be taught trades complementing their education.[7][39][40] The group utilizes corporal punishment[1][2][7][20][36][40] with a "reed-like rod"[11] like a balloon stick[41] across the child's bottom.[7]

 

Google shows lots of accusations of child abuse, financial control, and isolation. Ex members post stories here

twelvetribes-ex.com/

[Jana814]

Nuts!!

[Howl]

Weddings are dramatized preenactments of what the group believes will happen at the end of time when "Yahshua" returns to earth for his bride.

Presumably through interpretive dance! Oh, to be a fly on the wall.... :o

[Joyleaf]

The 12 Tribes are also active here in Germany and made news in 2013 when authorities removed children from one of the tribe's settlements.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 07438.html

(not broken because news source)

Its members consider the Old and New Testaments to be God’s direct word. The sect says it openly believes in “spanking†disobedient children to “drive out the Devilâ€. Its website insists: “We know that some people consider this aspect of our life controversial, but we have seen from experience that discipline keeps a child from becoming mean-spirited and disrespectful of authority.â€

(snip)

The film shows how children are made to get up at 5am and stand though an hour-long prayer session. They are obliged to labour with adults in the community’s farm plots and workshops. They attend the community’s own strictly religious schools. “It’s normal to be beaten every day,†said Christian, another former member who escaped five years ago.

The film also shows disturbing images of a baby boy being forcefully gripped by the back of the head in a practice referred to by sect members as “restraining.â€

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/0 ... 80122.html

(not broken because news source)

"We love our children and consider them precious and wonderful – because we love them we do spank them..." the group said. "When they are disobedient or intentionally hurtful to others we spank them with a small reed-like rod, which only inflicts pain and not damage."

(snip)

They have previously had problems in Germany for violating laws on homeschooling their children.

The sect's practices have run afoul of the law in the U.S. as well, including in 2000 in Connecticut where a couple belonging to the group pleaded guilty to third-degree assault and cruelty for disciplining their children with a 30-inch (76-centimeter) fiberglass rod.

In 1984, authorities raided the group in Vermont and removed 112 children on abuse allegations. A judge later ruled the raid illegal and returned the children to their parents.

[DaffyDill]

"We love our children and consider them precious and wonderful – because we love them we do spank them..." the group said. "When they are disobedient or intentionally hurtful to others we spank them with a small reed-like rod, which only inflicts pain and not damage."

Oh well that's alright then! Carry on! :roll: (to the bolded)