19 Kids & Counting Pulled From Line-Up/Show Future - Merge

[formergothardite]

Duggar Watch:

It's interesting that you have noted Gender Dysphoria is listed as a Psychiatric Disorder. That's what I was pointed out with: :cray-cray:

According to the APA in regards to the question "Is being transgendered a mental disorder"

A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.

It used to be that being gay was considered :cray-cray:. Most people no longer think that it is crazy to be gay. Hope this helps explain why being transgender isn't :cray-cray: and why your statements that show a lack of acceptance helps contribute to a lot of the problems trans people experience.

[VelociRapture]

Seriously, you are the one being "anti" and "a hateful troll."

I'm going to break your last post down for you. Bit by bit. And explain exactly why I and so many others here are calling you out for your bullshit.

I said, "I don't support the theory of transgenderism." And I don't. I didn't attack other people who believe in the theory; I didn't participate in name-calling or make derogatory comments; I didn't form a protest line; I didn't lobby for legislation; I didn't call anyone a sinner and say they are going to hell if they accept another viewpoint; I didn't say something was right or wrong or natural or unnatural.

Your opening line is incorrect. You mentioned nothing about transgenderism being a theory until that exact sentence. Your very first post, and I quote, said, "Actually, I don't support transgenderism. But I love the irony in this! :clap: "

What this states is that you don't support the fact that there are people who are transgender - not that you don't understand or don't believe that there is a theory.

You are correct that you declined to refer to anyone as a sinner, call people names, and (as far as I know) you didn't lobby for laws. You did, however, make incredibly judgmental comments. For starters, you referred to Caitlyn Jenner using male pronouns and using her old name multiple times - despite the fact that she has come out nationally using that name and using those pronouns. It doesn't matter if her name has been legally changed yet - she has made her wishes clear and people should respect that.

Moving on:

Bullshit. We aren't demanding that you believe exactly what we do. We are asking that you at least show some respect towards other people - namely towards Caitlyn Jenner. You don't have to understand or believe something is right to show some respect towards another human being.

We have called you out because you have been rude, insensitive, and increasingly close-minded about this subject. We have attempted to share relevant facts and data regarding transgenderism with you, only to be met with more rude comments. Is it really a surprise to you that people are getting pissed off with you?

Excellent example of contradictory statements here. Well done.

Your statement of, ""Bruce Jenner was also hiding a lot of skeletons when he was married to Kris Kardashian for 23 years," is in direct contrast to your statement, "And, unlike the Duggars, I'm not condemning anyone..."

By suggesting that Caitlyn Jenner had skeletons in her closest, you are, in fact, passing judgement.

Two problems with this:

1. You weren't part of the marriage, so you can't know for sure what Kris may or may not have known. No one other than Kris and Caitlyn can know for sure what happened in their marriage.

2. Caitlyn's first two wives have both gone on the record stating that she informed them of her true identity during their marriages. Its possible that Caitlyn did the same with Kris. Its equally as possible that she didn't tell Kris for some reason. Again, you can't know for sure.

Several problems here:

1. Yes, gender dysphoria is a psychiatric disorder - it is listed as such because it concerns an internal struggle between who you really are and who you are viewed to be by society.

And no, using :cray-cray: is not pointing that out. That is, in all actuality, highly offensive to millions of people who struggle with mental illness or mental disorders every single day. People diagnosed with this disorder are not crazy - to suggest they are, as you have done multiple times, is completely out of line and just goes to show how little you actually know about this entire subject.

2. As I stated before, it doesn't matter whether Caitlyn has legally changed her name or not. She took part in a televised interview where she referred to herself as Caitlyn and used female pronouns. She also gave an interview to Vanity Fair in which she asked people to, "Call me Caitlyn." It can't be much clearer what her preferences are and the fact that you continue to insist on using her old name and pronouns is ridiculous.

Yes. Caitlyn did play on men's teams while she was still publicly identifying as male. The IOC has already ruled that they will not be revoking her gold medal because she was physically male at that time - meaning that she was not taking any hormones when she competed and won. Not only that, the U.S. Olympics Committee has publicly stated they are more than happy to change her name in the records if she requests it.

Finally, you are completely incorrect about how the Olympic Committee determines a person's gender or sex. If an athlete is openly transgender at the time they are competing then the Committee allows them to compete in the events of the gender they identify with - meaning, if Caitlyn had openly identified as female at the time, she would have competed against other women. The only catch with this is that the athlete must have been doing hormone replacement therapy for at least 2 years prior to competing (in order to cut the chances that an athlete will be given an unfair advantage). In cases where sex or gender is not easily able to be determined, then yes DNA may be used to make the determination - that would not be the case for a transgender athlete who met the requirements though.

The more you talk the more you show just how uneducated you are on this topic. Again, I highly suggest you do some fucking research before you type another post.

[FundieFarmer]

1. Yes, gender dysphoria is a psychiatric disorder - it is listed as such because it concerns an internal struggle between who you really are and who you are viewed to be by society.

And no, using :cray-cray: is not pointing that out. That is, in all actuality, highly offensive to millions of people who struggle with mental illness or mental disorders every single day. People diagnosed with this disorder are not crazy - to suggest they are, as you have done multiple times, is completely out of line and just goes to show how little you actually know about this entire subject.

:clap:

Agreed. I found that as well as :nenner: to be offensive (and flat out rude) given the context.

[NoneandDoneinCali]

I think we must all be getting a bit of Duggar burn-out - most of the threads on here have been derailed!

Anyways, I support the transition of any person who feels that is necessary for their happiness. I support gender fluidity as well. I can also say that I am 100% behind Caitlyn Jenner, and respect her deeply for inviting the public into something very personal, while still acknowledging that she was a shit, borderline negligent parent to her older children, basically willing to divulge any intimate information about her marriages for a price, and is probably (based on the way she was presented on reality tv) not the nicest person. Her personality and actions are =/= to being a trans woman.

I also support the diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria, not because I think it makes people "crazy," but because it causes emotional distress and can lead to dysfunction and manifest as other mental illness (i.e. persistent depressive disorder or major depressive disorder, substance use disorders etc). Additionally, there are many "treatments" for it (i.e. allowing people to transition with or without medications or surgeries). I liken it to Body Dysmorphia, with what we know of it at the present time. I also suspect it may end up being a neurological condition, when we have the technology to map out the brain more precisely. I think being intersex (but having internal/hormonal aspects of both reproductive systems, rather than external and visually obvious signs) can also be mis-diagnosed. While I hold these beliefs about it being a diagnosable condition, I am not going to spend my time trying to convince trans people that they have a (treatable) mental illness - I do not feel it is my place.

I myself am Bipolar II - I am not defined by my mental illness. My "regular" personality is not a major depressive episode. It is a medical condition which I treat with medication (not that I propose that every trans person take hormones, but most of them do. some people with bipolar disorder do not medicate either, and some manage fine without it).

I think it's important to remember that Gender Dysphoria requires a fairly extensive period of mental unrest about "being in the wrong body." It is a chronic condition, not acute. It is not a paraphillia, and has nothing to do with sexual orientation/attraction. It is also (IMO) not gender fluidity issue, as the basis (again, imo) is sexual/physical, not socially constructed (though, in our society, it can be challenging to separate the two). I am very excited for the future of the trans community, as more medical and therapeutic options become available, and the wider community receives more education. I sincerely think there needs to be a push to employ more therapists and medical professionals who identify as trans. I am empathetic to the cause, but am cis, and I can only imagine what a relief it would be for one of my trans clients to have a therapist who can identify with them in a more visceral way.

**To be clear - when I say Gender Dysphoria is a treatable condition, I mean with transitioning in whatever way a person sees fit, not by taking psych meds or trying to make it go away.

[VelociRapture]

I think we must all be getting a bit of Duggar burn-out - most of the threads on here have been derailed!

Anyways, I support the transition of any person who feels that is necessary for their happiness. I support gender fluidity as well. I can also say that I am 100% behind Caitlyn Jenner, and respect her deeply for inviting the public into something very personal, while still acknowledging that she was a shit, borderline negligent parent to her older children, basically willing to divulge any intimate information about her marriages for a price, and is probably (based on the way she was presented on reality tv) not the nicest person. Her personality and actions are =/= to being a trans woman.

I also support the diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria, not because I think it makes people "crazy," but because it causes emotional distress and can lead to dysfunction and manifest as other mental illness (i.e. persistent depressive disorder or major depressive disorder, substance use disorders etc). Additionally, there are many "treatments" for it (i.e. allowing people to transition with or without medications or surgeries). I liken it to Body Dysmorphia, with what we know of it at the present time. I also suspect it may end up being a neurological condition, when we have the technology to map out the brain more precisely. I think being intersex (but having internal/hormonal aspects of both reproductive systems, rather than external and visually obvious signs) can also be mis-diagnosed. While I hold these beliefs about it being a diagnosable condition, I am not going to spend my time trying to convince trans people that they have a (treatable) mental illness - I do not feel it is my place.

I myself am Bipolar II - I am not defined by my mental illness. My "regular" personality is not a major depressive episode. It is a medical condition which I treat with medication (not that I propose that every trans person take hormones, but most of them do. some people with bipolar disorder do not medicate either, and some manage fine without it).

I think it's important to remember that Gender Dysphoria requires a fairly extensive period of mental unrest about "being in the wrong body." It is a chronic condition, not acute. It is not a paraphillia, and has nothing to do with sexual orientation/attraction. It is also (IMO) not gender fluidity issue, as the basis (again, imo) is sexual/physical, not socially constructed (though, in our society, it can be challenging to separate the two). I am very excited for the future of the trans community, as more medical and therapeutic options become available, and the wider community receives more education. I sincerely think there needs to be a push to employ more therapists and medical professionals who identify as trans. I am empathetic to the cause, but am cis, and I can only imagine what a relief it would be for one of my trans clients to have a therapist who can identify with them in a more visceral way.

**To be clear - when I say Gender Dysphoria is a treatable condition, I mean with transitioning in whatever way a person sees fit, not by taking psych meds or trying to make it go away.

Beautifully worded and explained. Thank you for taking the time to write that!

[EmmieJ]

Bolding mine. Actually, this is your exact quote, from upthread.

Not to hang you on your own words, but you didn't say anything about the theory. If you'd specifically said theory, this conversation might have gone differently.

ETA: I wouldn't say we're being Duggarite in the sense that we aren't beating you over the head with nonsensical, incorrect statistics nor are we trying to change your opinion to exactly match ours because Jesus. You can interpret it that way, but you've got a group of people who are calling you out on your incorrect information with actual statistics and research, and also on your rudeness, insensitivity, and close-mindedness. That's kind of exactly the opposite of what the Duggars do.

I applaud all who have tried to interact reasonably with DuggarWatch, who doesn't "support transgenderism," but I think this person is just an attention seeker, and is getting exactly what he/she is looking for - lots of attention.

[Handmaiden of Dog]

I think we are all pretty confident the show will never return-- meaning no more lovely checks from TLC. JB and Michelle will be OK and most (if not all) of their children will be fine. The ones I am worried about now is the third generation, Izzy and JessaBump and the M Kids. I cannot foresee a good future for any of them with the possible exception of Izzy and that is only if Derick comes to his senses and a.) limits the family size and b.) allows his children to go to college.

The idea that Jessa and Ben are going to homeschool their children and raise them like JB and Michelle with limited opportunities is frightening. There will be no TLC money and no trips abroad and no free gifts. These kids will be born into a relentless spiral of ignorance and poverty. God help them.

[SassyPants]

I think we are all pretty confident the show will never return-- meaning no more lovely checks from TLC. JB and Michelle will be OK and most (if not all) of their children will be fine. The ones I am worried about now is the third generation, Izzy and JessaBump and the M Kids. I cannot foresee a good future for any of them with the possible exception of Izzy and that is only if Derick comes to his senses and a.) limits the family size and b.) allows his children to go to college.

The idea that Jessa and Ben are going to homeschool their children and raise them like JB and Michelle with limited opportunities is frightening. There will be no TLC money and no trips abroad and no free gifts. These kids will be born into a relentless spiral of ignorance and poverty. God help them.

Jessa reminds me of my SIL. Very cocky, married young, spoke of wanting a large family and once she had one and saw what exactly having a child entailed, waited 13 years to have her second and last child.

I think when Jessa sees how much work, time, energy and money children take, especially if their bank account is reflective of their joint skill and education levels, she'll be signing a different tune.

[church_of_dog]

I remember on one episode of 19KAC JB discussion the age of earth. And he said something like scientists use circular logic to prove earth is billions of years old-- this was in reference to carbon dating courting.

Fixed that for you 8-)

[HarryPotterFan]

Fixed that for you 8-)

:lol: :lol: well that made my night.

[lookinggoodforjesus]

Duggar Watch:

According to the APA in regards to the question "Is being transgendered a mental disorder"

A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.

It used to be that being gay was considered :cray-cray:. Most people no longer think that it is crazy to be gay. Hope this helps explain why being transgender isn't :cray-cray: and why your statements that show a lack of acceptance helps contribute to a lot of the problems trans people experience.

Hey -

While it's ethically (and just in general) wrong that gender dysphoria is considered a medical disease, it's helpful in my country. Surgery and psychiatric care will be covered by the government because it's considered a disorder. It's not cosmetic. It's something that can/should be treated medically, and the protocol for such should be adhered to. Should it be viewed as a disease by the general public? Absolutely not. But, if that means FREE sex reassignment surgery, then I'm all for it. If it wasn't a "disease" then it would not be covered.

[RosyDaisy]

I stand by what I said, DuggarWatch. You are truly ignorant. Eacg post you make proves it. So yeah, fuck you!

[alba]

Hey -

While it's ethically (and just in general) wrong that gender dysphoria is considered a medical disease, it's helpful in my country. Surgery and psychiatric care will be covered by the government because it's considered a disorder. It's not cosmetic. It's something that can/should be treated medically, and the protocol for such should be adhered to. Should it be viewed as a disease by the general public? Absolutely not. But, if that means FREE sex reassignment surgery, then I'm all for it. If it wasn't a "disease" then it would not be covered.

I'm curious, does your province cover things like breast reductions?

Here in the UK, the NHS covers all sorts of things that do not qualify as medical diseases or injuries. There's the whole spectrum of birth control, abortion, and childbirth (including pre- and post-natal care), for one thing, but they also cover breast reduction when it contributes to back pain and other issues. One can have medical needs without illness or injury, and I don't see much difference between reducing breasts because they cause back pain and removing them because they cause emotional distress.

I'm not well-versed in how the NHS views gender dysphoria, but the nhs.uk website has this paragraph:

This mismatch between sex and gender identity can lead to distressing and uncomfortable feelings that are called gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition, for which treatment is sometimes appropriate. It is not a mental illness.

(nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Introduction.aspx)

So it looks like it's seen as a condition, but not an illness. I'm not sure if that's just a semantic difference or if it actually affects how it's viewed by medical professionals.

And, DuggarWatch, if you actually give a damn about this stuff and aren't just trolling, this passage may be of interest to you:

It [gender dysphoria] was traditionally thought to be a psychiatric condition, with its causes believed to originate in the mind.

However, more recent research suggests the condition may actually be the result of the abnormal development of a baby while it is in the womb, possibly as a result of genetic or hormonal factors, which causes the brain to develop a gender identity that is different to the baby's sexual organs.

It starts IN THE WOMB.

[zebra #13]

Got this gender change rage going on elsewhere I blog, and just as much difficulty understanding why there, as here. If I'd followed my Iowa Test recs, I'd be a biologist because evidently I have a lot of interest/talent in the area and test really high there. Would have been soooooooo easy, lol! But no: I wanted to be a writer, a poet (where I didn't test all that high, so it's been a very uphill climb, my whole life). Luckily, not areas where anyone else gave much of a damn, or felt they needed to vote.

But it's been clear to me for a very long time that Godde/Mother Nature is either a great experimenter and/or a really clumsy creator. We have baby boys, baby girls, baby inbetweens, and baby unknowns. And that's just goodle eyeballing it. We *also* have peeps who look to be one thing, and are actually something quite else.

Lydia Fairchild is actually herself AND her sister. . . . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Fairchild

Many pre- and non- Christian cultures have recognized a spectrum, and pretty much honored it.

We seem, slowly, slowly, to be waking up again. Kinsey, in the 40s and 50s rated our sexuality on a continuum. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale

John Money, just a bit later did the same for gender. https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=John_Money

I kinda think it's glib and self-serving for us born safely on one end or the other of the scales to reserve the right to "vote" on the others' well being.

That is all.

[lookinggoodforjesus]

I'm curious, does your province cover things like breast reductions?

Here in the UK, the NHS covers all sorts of things that do not qualify as medical diseases or injuries. There's the whole spectrum of birth control, abortion, and childbirth (including pre- and post-natal care), for one thing, but they also cover breast reduction when it contributes to back pain and other issues. One can have medical needs without illness or injury, and I don't see much difference between reducing breasts because they cause back pain and removing them because they cause emotional distress.

I'm not well-versed in how the NHS views gender dysphoria, but the nhs.uk website has this paragraph:

(nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Introduction.aspx)

So it looks like it's seen as a condition, but not an illness. I'm not sure if that's just a semantic difference or if it actually affects how it's viewed by medical professionals.

And, DuggarWatch, if you actually give a damn about this stuff and aren't just trolling, this passage may be of interest to you:

It starts IN THE WOMB.

Ah! But emotional stress is a medical condition, is it not? Birth control isn't covered too heavily here, and most private insurers don't cover it. I don't know how much it costs in other places, but it isn't cheap here. But the insertion of an IUD is covered by MSP. Abortion is covered by MSP whether it is medically necessary or not. Not 100% sure on breast reductions, but I think yes?

MSP and NHS are quite similar, from my very basic understanding of NHS.

[luv2laugh]

So, JB & Michelle have lawyered up. The Inquisitr is reporting that it seems to be they are battling with TLC to save the show since the lawyer's expertise is in breaches of contract.

http://www.inquisitr.com/2188511/duggar ... -the-show/

[alba]

Ah! But emotional stress is a medical condition, is it not? Birth control isn't covered too heavily here, and most private insurers don't cover it. I don't know how much it costs in other places, but it isn't cheap here. But the insertion of an IUD is covered by MSP. Abortion is covered by MSP whether it is medically necessary or not. Not 100% sure on breast reductions, but I think yes?

MSP and NHS are quite similar, from my very basic understanding of NHS.

I'm not really familiar with MSP, but I grew up in Ontario and can tell you the NHS covers a lot more than OHIP, including birth control and asthma inhalers (which somehow cost the NHS roughly a tenth of what I/my parents' insurance had to pay back home). But, yes, the NHS is broadly similar to Canada's public healthcare.

I don't know enough about trans* issues to know if the NHS has the right approach, just that something can be a medical procedure/medicine covered by the NHS without it having to be an illness.

[jacduggar]

So, JB & Michelle have lawyered up. The Inquisitr is reporting that it seems to be they are battling with TLC to save the show since the lawyer's expertise is in breaches of contract.

http://www.inquisitr.com/2188511/duggar ... -the-show/

I really want to know what their contract looks like and what this lawyer thinks he can do. I can't see a way that they could save this show or any spinoffs. Even fighting TLC over a contract dispute won't keep their show on the air, it may result in a very small settlement that will cover legal fees at most. The Duggar name is as good as mud now, no one is going to pick it up and we're never going to see the footage for the new season.

[Bickle2]

I really want to know what their contract looks like and what this lawyer thinks he can do. I can't see a way that they could save this show or any spinoffs. Even fighting TLC over a contract dispute won't keep their show on the air, it may result in a very small settlement that will cover legal fees at most. The Duggar name is as good as mud now, no one is going to pick it up and we're never going to see the footage for the new season.

To take an educated guess: thry believe the morality clause doesn't apply to them as they have not been charged with anything, and since Boob and Clown Car are likely the only ones who actually signed it. This they are unlikely to win, especially since Mommy Boo-Boo is waiting in the wings for just such and opening.

If I were them, I'd be attempting to gain access to the video library and the at least dozen or so unaired episodes likely at least near completion for next season. Then I'd be phoning up the people that back Sarah Palin Channel or something similar, and be looking to set up my own subscription service to milk the stupid faithful base, and keep alllllll the money. Combine that with live events and lesson from the Duggars just for you, and reruns of the show, along with Duggar approved family programming, it's a license to print money. Just ask Glen Beck, who's raking in personally an estimated million a month, personally from 250,000 subscribers

[Ursula]

Ah! But emotional stress is a medical condition, is it not? Birth control isn't covered too heavily here, and most private insurers don't cover it. I don't know how much it costs in other places, but it isn't cheap here. But the insertion of an IUD is covered by MSP. Abortion is covered by MSP whether it is medically necessary or not. Not 100% sure on breast reductions, but I think yes?

MSP and NHS are quite similar, from my very basic understanding of NHS.

Wait, what? I'm pretty sure we're from the same part of Canada (as it's the only place in Canada where it doesn't snow :P ) and my birth control was always covered. When I first became sexually active I was still in school and had no job or income. I didn't pay a damn thing for my birth control. Once I graduated and started working and had medical coverage through work, I paid like, $12/month? Something ridiculously cheap like that. Then when I got spayed last year, THAT was 100% covered. The visit to the OB who performed my surgery, the half day I spent in the hospital, the surgery itself, the anaesthetic, the post-op visit back to the OB to check how I was healing and remove the single tiny stitch that was in my navel incision....all free! I LOVE THIS COUNTRY *kisses BC CareCard*

Now, if I "change my mind" (LOLOLOL NOT BLOODY LIKELY) and want to have biological kids someday, that will require IVF which I would have to pay for myself, 100%. Some might think that's unfair but I'm happy with a government that supports NOT making more peoples. 7 billion+ is TOO MANY PEOPLES.

Umm....anyway....I sure hope that 19 Kids & Counting gets cancelled and soon! That story about JimBoob and OfJimBoob hiring a lawyer who specializes in contract negotiations is very interesting, IF it turns out to be true, that is. Gotta keep an eye on that one.

[lostfemme]

If I were them, I'd be attempting to gain access to the video library and the at least dozen or so unaired episodes likely at least near completion for next season. Then I'd be phoning up the people that back Sarah Palin Channel or something similar, and be looking to set up my own subscription service to milk the stupid faithful base, and keep alllllll the money. Combine that with live events and lesson from the Duggars just for you, and reruns of the show, along with Duggar approved family programming, it's a license to print money. Just ask Glen Beck, who's raking in personally an estimated million a month, personally from 250,000 subscribers

That's absolutely brilliant. A whole new show wouldn't work, because the Duggars won't be able to hire the same crew that made them seem interesting and look cheerful, but as singular podcasts or exclusive content from past tapings...it could work for them.

The fundie faithful have forgiven worse from their idols and they sure love throwing their money away on frauds.

The more I think about it, the more I think you could be right. Jim Bob might be prepping to fight for past tapes. He might also be fighting against any sort of non-compete clause TLC might have in their contract that would prevent the Duggars from moving to another channel or forum.

[MatthewDuggar]

....the same part of Canada (as it's the only place in Canada where it doesn't snow :P )

Sorry to derail - but where exactly in Canada does it NOT snow??

[Firiel]

Sorry to derail - but where exactly in Canada does it NOT snow??

Not Canadian, but I'm guessing southern part of the west coast-- the part with the same climate as Seattle. :)

[alba]

Sorry to derail - but where exactly in Canada does it NOT snow??

Vancouver/Vancouver Island. Basically southwest/coastal BC.

[justbecause]

Not to be a negative Nellie, but unfortunately, they've been pretty well trained on how to view the opposite side of their arguments. If you google "Christian arguments against < insert creation, abortion, global warming etc>" there are answers for the scientific evidence. Batshit crazy answers, but answers that they go with. They are fairly well-trained in them I'm guessing because of the all the proselytizing they do.

I remember on one episode of 19KAC JB discussion the age of earth. And he said something like scientists use circular logic to prove earth is billions of years old-- this was in reference to carbon dating.

I know that all their information was from a Creationist point of view because they used all the Gothard Homeschooling textbooks and everything from science to social studies, ect is from their cultish views, so those kids only know one side. Now the adult girls that moved away, they can do what they want to within their 'Headship' rules I guess or access the internet or whatever, but the kids still in the house only have one real view.