19 Kids & Counting Pulled From Line-Up/Show Future - Merge

[halcionne]

Bruce Jenner doesn't have 'a Y chromosome.' He has 37 trillion Y chromosomes, one for every cell in his male body! And that's a fact he cannot change no matter how many hormones he takes. Those 37 trillion Y's are there to stay. And maybe that's why he says that he is still attracted just to women, not to men. :cray-cray:

Some transwomen are attracted to men. :shhh:

[halcionne]

You can comment on my fantasy idea for a Duggar show but I have not made one single comment in this forum about Caitlyn Jenner topic and for the record I am fully supportive of Caitlyn's journey. Also in 1977 I went on a dinner date with Bruce Jenner. At that time I can say Bruce presented as a very delightful male.

I want to hear more about this. Jenner was a virtual rock star back then. :drool:

[halcionne]

Is this a real post?

Disclaimer: I'm not a HoneyBooBoo fan in any way. But there are (IMO) plenty of actual reasons to have the show pulled without your nonsense.

"poor dumb big ole thing" Let's see. Fat shaming. Poor - maybe, maybe not, depending on what has happened with the money from the show. Dumb - Your use of the word is rude at best. Ole thing - Really? (The grammar, spelling, and punctuation in your post don't make you appear particularly educated).

I can't even with the rest of this post.

Thank you for speaking up about this. I'm non-confrontational by nature and between tackling transphobic comments in here and the slut-shaming in Jessa's thread, I'm wiped out.

[Librul]

I feel like I've fallen down the rabbit hole with Alice. It doesn't help that I've had wine, but I honestly don't follow this last flurry of posts, and don't particularly want to. Thread drift is one thing....this is another.

[Nic]

I want to hear more about this. Jenner was a virtual rock star back then. :drool:

OMG ME TOO! ME TOO! I was totally going to ask.

[SassyPants]

I feel like I've fallen down the rabbit hole with Alice. It doesn't help that I've had wine, but I honestly don't follow this last flurry of posts, and don't particularly want to. Thread drift is one thing....this is another.

DITTO!

[Nic]

Or maybe they've heard it in the context of incorrect scientific explanation (ie, evolution being humans come from monkeys)

Not to be a negative Nellie, but unfortunately, they've been pretty well trained on how to view the opposite side of their arguments. If you google "Christian arguments against < insert creation, abortion, global warming etc>" there are answers for the scientific evidence. Batshit crazy answers, but answers that they go with. They are fairly well-trained in them I'm guessing because of the all the proselytizing they do.

I remember on one episode of 19KAC JB discussion the age of earth. And he said something like scientists use circular logic to prove earth is billions of years old-- this was in reference to carbon dating.

[DowntownAbbey]

Not to be a negative Nellie, but unfortunately, they've been pretty well trained on how to view the opposite side of their arguments. If you google "Christian arguments against < insert creation, abortion, global warming etc>" there are answers for the scientific evidence. Batshit crazy answers, but answers that they go with. They are fairly well-trained in them I'm guessing because of the all the proselytizing they do.

I remember on one episode of 19KAC JB discussion the age of earth. And he said something like scientists use circular logic to prove earth is billions of years old-- this was in reference to carbon dating.

I remember a few of the "scientific" arguments against evolution from my Christian middle school education. The main one I can recall is using the laws of thermodynamics to disprove evolution's claims. The 2nd law got the most use. Basically, if the law claims that the entropy, or disorder, in the universe in increasing how can evolution be possible because it creates more order, or something like that.

I also vaguely remember circular logic being applied to carbon dating. Something along the lines of heathen scientists use rocks to date animals and animals to date the rocks. ...because that's totally how carbon dating works.

Once I got into college and took a physical anthropology class where I was presented not only with an accurate understanding of what evolution actually entails and how the concept had shockingly [ :o ] changed since Darwin, the arguments I had grown up with quickly died.

[VelociRapture]

Bruce Jenner Caitlyn Jenner doesn't have 'a Y chromosome.' He She has 37 trillion Y chromosomes, one for every cell in his male her body! And that's a fact he she cannot change no matter how many hormones he she takes. Those 37 trillion Y's are there to stay. And maybe that's why he she says that he she is still attracted just to women, not to men. :cray-cray:

Weird thing - your posts keep needing to be corrected. It seems your computer or phone keeps changing Caitlyn to Bruce and female pronouns to male. You should probably look into that.

Now, onto the actual content and why you are so so wrong:

1. Her name is Caitlyn. Not Bruce. If her own mother can remember to call her that after 60+ years of saying Bruce then you can do the same. Show some fucking respect towards others.

2. Yes, she has Y chromosomes. As others have pointed out that really doesn't mean a damn thing when it comes to gender. People who are transgender don't always want to have sex reassignment surgeries. The hormones don't have any effect whatsoever on their genetic makeup just as birth control, insulin, beta blockers, and aspirin do not have an effect on chromosomes. Your point here is completely irrelevant and the fact you continue to cling to it so much is pathetic.

3. No. She's attracted to women because that's just what she likes. There are countless women born with vaginas who love other people with vaginas. Same with men loving people with penises. By your reasoning, those people don't exist. I'll be sure to tell Ellen Degeneres and her wife Portia DeRossi that. Same with Neil Patrick Harris and his husband.

4. Finally, why do you even care how she views herself? Is she harming you by becoming a woman? Is she forcing you to change your gender identity? Seriously, why do you care so much about what's in someone else's pants or under another person's skirt? Are you a secret Fundie? Because you're sure acting like one.

[singsingsing]

Wow! Complete and total misunderstanding of gender, sexuality, sociology, AND genetics! I don't think I've seen a winner like this since Michelle Duggar's terror alert about trans people hiding in public washrooms waiting to attack! Truly remarkable.

[Furbabies]

Wow! Complete and total misunderstanding of gender, sexuality, sociology, AND genetics! I don't think I've seen a winner like this since Michelle Duggar's terror alert about trans people hiding in public washrooms waiting to attack! Truly remarkable.

I'm throwing this out there to see what happens

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_sexuality

Disclaimer: I am BDSM, and I don't care if a person is gay, lesbian, bi, asexual, intersex, trans, gender queer, poly, etc. as long as you are consenting adults. (No children or animals)

[SportsgalAnnie]

Weird thing - your posts keep needing to be corrected. It seems your computer or phone keeps changing Caitlyn to Bruce and female pronouns to male. You should probably look into that.

Now, onto the actual content and why you are so so wrong:

1. Her name is Caitlyn. Not Bruce. If her own mother can remember to call her that after 60+ years of saying Bruce then you can do the same. Show some fucking respect towards others.

2. Yes, she has Y chromosomes. As others have pointed out that really doesn't mean a damn thing when it comes to gender. People who are transgender don't always want to have sex reassignment surgeries. The hormones don't have any effect whatsoever on their genetic makeup just as birth control, insulin, beta blockers, and aspirin do not have an effect on chromosomes. Your point here is completely irrelevant and the fact you continue to cling to it so much is pathetic.

3. No. She's attracted to women because that's just what she likes. There are countless women born with vaginas who love other people with vaginas. Same with men loving people with penises. By your reasoning, those people don't exist. I'll be sure to tell Ellen Degeneres and her wife Portia DeRossi that. Same with Neil Patrick Harris and his husband.

4. Finally, why do you even care how she views herself? Is she harming you by becoming a woman? Is she forcing you to change your gender identity? Seriously, why do you care so much about what's in someone else's pants or under another person's skirt? Are you a secret Fundie? Because you're sure acting like one.

:dance: exactly and if it doesn't directly hurt or effect your life, let it be. There is a huge difference between snark and pure hate/ignorance.The difference is SHE chose to be this way, the Duggar children didn't chose their lifestyle.

[Sundaymorning]

:dance: exactly and if it doesn't directly hurt or effect your life, let it be. There is a huge difference between snark and pure hate/ignorance.The difference is SHE chose to be this way, the Duggar children didn't chose their lifestyle.

What do you mean with "she chose to be this way"? Do you mean that she chose to live her true identity openly instead of staying hidden? Or that she "chose" her gender identity? Cause choosing your gender identity is simply not possible, just like it isn't possible to choose if you are straight, bi or gay.

[SportsgalAnnie]

What do you mean with "she chose to be this way"? Do you mean that she chose to live her true identity openly instead of staying hidden? Or that she "chose" her gender identity? Cause choosing your gender identity is simply not possible, just like it isn't possible to choose if you are straight, bi or gay.

yes she chose to live her true identity, I forgot I wasn't talking to my idiot cousins for a minute. (they quit going to Dollywood because she allows gays to be open there :angry-banghead: ) I believe in you being who you feel like you are and living the life that makes you happy as long as it doesn't endanger the well being of others.

[clueliss]

Still trying to figure out what Jenner has to do with 19KAC but okay. Someone wake me when the thread goes back on track.

[Cochise]

I want to hear more about this. Jenner was a virtual rock star back then. :drool:

It's true. I've never watched the Kardashians, but when I learned about her transition I spent some time on youtube watching clips old clips of Jenner at the Olympics, competing in all the various parts of the decathlon. I've never seen a more handsome, manly, gorgeous man, and when he won he was generally recognized as not just the handsomest man competing in the event but the best athlete in the world. He could have come over and sweated on me any ole time he wanted to.

It's not exactly easy for an unknown person to transition; family and friends aren't always supportive or accepting and strangers are often contemptuous. Going through transition as a man who was very, very famous and admired? That took a lot of courage. No, it's not the Olympics, but no one would go through this kind of public transition without being willing to suffer a lot of physical pain and, in Jenner's case, to face down huge amounts of ignorant contempt with dignity and integrity. Sheesh, how could anyone imagine that a person would go through this kind of process UNLESS IT JUST SEEMED LIKE THE ONLY POSSIBLE THING TO DO? People who do this aren't doing it for fun or attention.

[apple1]

... in 1977 I went on a dinner date with Bruce Jenner. At that time I can say Bruce presented as a very delightful male.

Can I just say...

Not everybody is who they present themselves as on the internet. We have no evidence ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.

(healthy skepticism)

[Furbabies]

Still trying to figure out what Jenner has to do with 19KAC but okay. Someone wake me when the thread goes back on track.

TLC is starting a new show called I am jazz about a biological boy whose family is allowing him and raising him to be a transgender girl.that is how Kaitlyn general was brought into the picture.

please forgive my pronoun usage.

[HWest]

I want to hear more about this. Jenner was a virtual rock star back then. :drool:

Bruce was at the height of his popularity and looks. I was the studio manager for a world famous photographer in New York. I had just finished my first year of law school and I was doing the job for the summer while my best friend (who was the permanent studio manager) went to LA to care fro her gravely ill Mom. Bruce was shooting six covers for magazines all over the world over a 2 day period. I spent most of the 2 days with him. At the end of the shoots he gently put his arm around my waist and asked me to dinner. I had a very lovely time but declined a night cap in his hotel room as he was married (something I found out during the shoot).

Edit to add that I have now been practicing law for 37 years. I have been blessed with a wonderful life of family and friends and amazing experiences.

[lostfemme]

What makes you think that if they have these experiences they would so with an open mind? They've all heard the arguments for dinosaurs and big bang and still thinks it's a load of horse pucky.

Look at the Kirk Cameron-- he's had a lot of experiences, yet he still manages to have his batshit crazy views.

If I watched the Duggars having these terrific experiences and still hold onto those narrow minded views, I'd go MENTAL.

Edited to change word THIS to STILL

That's why I don't imagine the Duggars ever entering situations that challenge their god vs evolution assumptions. That ignorance is too strongly locked in to ever be dislodged.

The show I would watch again wouldn't necessarily change a damn thing in the Duggar children's minds. What I'd like to see is the contortions of their cognitive dissonance. If the Duggars avoid The Louvre because of the nakedness on display, what would happen if Jinger went there with an art or design instructor to teach her about color values and composition? Would she leave and sit alone outside in protest? Or does she have the mental capacity to separate the "not my thing" nudes from the information imparted?

How about Joseph attending a conference and discussion on all faiths in Great Britain? Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Evangelicals, Anglicans, none of whom challenge his anti-evolution bias but something will cause his head to explode. Will he sympathize with the fundamentalists of all religions or will his internal battle heat up in competition with Wahabi Islam or Opus Dei Catholics? I'd find that damn interesting.

Jessa seems primed to be a spokesperson for Duggar/Gothard values. Will she learn to flirt and joust with interviewers? If she could, I think she would LOOOOOVE it! Watching her go through the process of gaining those skills, failing and succeeding, would be fascinating.

Josiah and Marjorie actually learning bankable skills in theater production?! Come on, they will meet some very interesting people along the way. Wouldn't you want to see their reactions?

The older Duggar kids are never going to make more than baby steps outside their indoctrination of being the special super fundamentalists. Even those tiny steps would make me tune in.

[DuggarWatch]

...seriously (directed at person being anti-trans/LGBT) why are you feeling the need to derail a thread by being a hateful troll about things that do not have shit to do with you?

Seriously, you are the one being "anti" and "a hateful troll."

I said, "I don't support the theory of transgenderism." And I don't. I didn't attack other people who believe in the theory; I didn't participate in name-calling or make derogatory comments; I didn't form a protest line; I didn't lobby for legislation; I didn't call anyone a sinner and say they are going to hell if they accept another viewpoint; I didn't say something was right or wrong or natural or unnatural. That would be far too Duggarite, which is how many of you are behaving right now (@ShepherdontheRock, halcionne, ILoveJellyBeans, VelociRapture, FundieFarmer, EvenKell, Firiel, HWest, Lostfemme, singsingsing, and RosyDaisy who said: "Redneck stereotyping and transgender/transsexual bashing. Fuck whoever said these things. You are truly bigoted and ignorant.").

And, unlike the Duggars, I'm not condemning anyone, let alone condemning other people while hypocritically hiding skeletons in my own closet. Though, now that it is mentioned, Bruce Jenner was also hiding a lot of skeletons when he was married to Kris Kardashian for 23 years.

@VelociRapture: It's interesting that you have noted Gender Dysphoria is listed as a Psychiatric Disorder. That's what I was pointed out with: :cray-cray: As for your need to change the names and pronouns in my very short posts, so far as anyone knows, Bruce Jenner has not officially changed his name yet. That takes a court order and probably a $10 filing fee.

Bruce played on the men's college football team, was declared Male Athlete of the Year in 1976, and won the Men's Decathlon in the 1976 Olympics. The Olympic board is not going to change the name on the official records because women cannot compete for male events, let alone win them. How does the Olympic board determine male and female? By chromosomes! If you don't like that, take it up with them, not me.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Who cares that Caitlyn has not officially changed her name from Bruce. That doesn't matter, what you call someone depends on what they want to be called, not what the law says. Like if there was someone who did not like their first name, so preferred to go by their middle name. Or if someone's legal name was Jonathan, but they don't really like being called by their full name and prefer that everyone calls them Jon, or the other way around, like that Rebecca really doesn't like having her name shortened to Becky, and prefers her full name.

Pronouns are the same. How do you decide whether to call someone he or she? You don't discretely take a blood sample to check what their chromosomes say, or grab their crotch to check for a penis. You go by the way they are presenting if you haven't spoken to them and don't know them (sometimes youre wrong though as not everyone conforms to gender stereotypes), or if you do, you go by what they have other people use for them.

Im not being like a Duggar by pointing this out, Im just educating you on trans issues :)

[Firiel]

Seriously, you are the one being "anti" and "a hateful troll."

I said, "I don't support the theory of transgenderism." And I don't. I didn't attack other people who believe in the theory; I didn't participate in name-calling or make derogatory comments; I didn't form a protest line; I didn't lobby for legislation; I didn't call anyone a sinner and say they are going to hell if they accept another viewpoint; I didn't say something was right or wrong or natural or unnatural. That would be far too Duggarite, which is how many of you are behaving right now (@ShepherdontheRock, halcionne, ILoveJellyBeans, VelociRapture, FundieFarmer, EvenKell, Firiel, HWest, Lostfemme, singsingsing, and RosyDaisy who said: "Redneck stereotyping and transgender/transsexual bashing. Fuck whoever said these things. You are truly bigoted and ignorant.").

And, unlike the Duggars, I'm not condemning anyone, let alone condemning other people while hypocritically hiding skeletons in my own closet. Though, now that it is mentioned, Bruce Jenner was also hiding a lot of skeletons when he was married to Kris Kardashian for 23 years.

@VelociRapture: It's interesting that you have noted Gender Dysphoria is listed as a Psychiatric Disorder. That's what I was pointed out with: :cray-cray: As for your need to change the names and pronouns in my very short posts, so far as anyone knows, Bruce Jenner has not officially changed his name yet. That takes a court order and probably a $10 filing fee.

Bruce played on the men's college football team, was declared Male Athlete of the Year in 1976, and won the Men's Decathlon in the 1976 Olympics. The Olympic board is not going to change the name on the official records because women cannot compete for male events, let alone win them. How does the Olympic board determine male and female? By chromosomes! If you don't like that, take it up with them, not me.

Actually, no. That's not how they determine it.

transathlete.com/#!policies-by-organization/c1vyj

International Olympic Committee (IOC), the governing body charged with overseeing Olympic competition and those events leading up to the Games, became the first athletic body to adopt a policy of inclusion regarding transgender athletes. The IOC’s policy says only those who have:

1. undergone sex reassignment surgery

2. had hormone treatments for at least two years, and

3. received legal recognition of their transitioned sex

can participate consistent with their gender identities (IOC, 2003).

Caitlyn Jenner could not currently compete in the Olympics as a woman because she has not yet met these guidelines. I think most of us would say that's entirely fair because of the advantages in athletics that male hormones can give a person. But someone with XY chromosomes can compete in women's events if they are a transgender woman who has met the previous standards. Same thing with transgender men.

Edited for riffles: Changed "he" to "she"-- unfortunate typo in this particular scenario. :embarrassed:

[FundieFarmer]

(/snip) I said, "I don't support the theory of transgenderism." (/snip)

Bolding mine. Actually, this is your exact quote, from upthread.

Actually, I don't support transgenderism. But I love the irony in this! :clap:

Not to hang you on your own words, but you didn't say anything about the theory. If you'd specifically said theory, this conversation might have gone differently.

ETA: I wouldn't say we're being Duggarite in the sense that we aren't beating you over the head with nonsensical, incorrect statistics nor are we trying to change your opinion to exactly match ours because Jesus. You can interpret it that way, but you've got a group of people who are calling you out on your incorrect information with actual statistics and research, and also on your rudeness, insensitivity, and close-mindedness. That's kind of exactly the opposite of what the Duggars do.

[lostfemme]

"I didn't say something was right or wrong or natural or unnatural."

Sure you did! Evidence -

"I don't support the theory of transgenderism"

Despite the confusing use of this nebulous phrase "theory of transgenderism", you are calling transgenders wrong.

And...

"I'm not condemning anyone"

Sure you are! Hence-

"Bruce Jenner was also hiding a lot of skeletons when he was married to Kris Kardashian for 23 years. "

You are definitely making a judgement there which is pretty condemning. Personally, I don't think one can live for a person for 23 years without knowing his wants and desires. Caitlynn's first wife knew all about it, why not Kris? This was probably not a surprise to any of his children or step children either.

Come on, girl! You contradict yourself all over the place and have so much emotion invested it's practically jumping off the computer screen.

Look, I don't understand the transgendered mind or body. I don't understand neuroscience at all or the complicated interplay of self and biology. So I'm ignorant. Since I'm ignorant, I CHOOSE to err on the side of acceptance. Whatever makes a person happier with themselves is great by me, as long as it doesn't directly impinge on my life or the rights of humans. I simply don't care what the Olympic Committee decides (especially as it's corrupt as hell.) I simply don't care what the religions of the world think about transgendered people. If transgendered people are happy with their changed identities, happy in their new skin, satisfied with me simply changing pronouns to discuss them, then why not accept them and whatever sex assignment they choose? It's not costing me a thing, my world is not crumbling nor are my beliefs compromised by such a simple accommodation.