19 Kids & Counting Pulled From Line-Up/Show Future - Merge

[ShepherdontheRock]

It's like this: The concept is a sham. Bruce Jenner can wear dresses, take hormones, have surgery, cut off his penis (which he hasn't done), but he can't remove the male Y chromosome which is in EVERY CELL IN HIS BODY. That doesn't make me intolerant. Those are just the facts of life. So you see, there is no 'trans' about him. He's a male no matter what he does. :nenner:

Okay...how does having a Y chromosome have anything to do with what Caitlyn chooses to do with her life? She does not feel that a man is who she really is, she is living her life how she sees herself... just the inability to change the fact that she is genetically a male doesn't mean the concept of non binary genders is a "sham."

[Furbabies]

Here is the question. What has to happen to shake up the believers to pursue a new way of thinking?

Events have transpired during the course of the show that should be red flags to the Duggars but all events have been rationalized to fit their rigid belief system. Jill struggled giving birth although I believe Jill fully expected the home birth to go as planned because she followed all beliefs. Erin Bates expected to get pregnant shortly after marriage with out incident. She was a virgin who never took birth control but she had struggles with her fertility and several miscarriages before having a successful pregnancy that required a great deal of medical intervention. Michelle likes to attribute cause and effect to everything miscarriage = taking birth control. Yet, the events of their lives and those around them don't fall neatly into what they believe.

So again, what has to happen to turn on the lights? Sadly, I think it has to be something drastic.

Sweet Raptor Jesus! More drastic than incestual molestation? Maybe JB coming out as a homosexual anti-christ? [note]

[ShepherdontheRock]

Sweet Raptor Jesus! More drastic than incestual molestation? Maybe JB coming out as a homosexual anti-christ? [note]

For JChelle and JB, perhaps nothing. These people view "God's plan" as the answer to literally everything.

[VelociRapture]

It's like this: The concept is a sham. Bruce Jenner Caitlyn Jenner can wear dresses, take hormones, have surgery, cut off his penis her genitals (which he she hasn't done), but he she can't remove the male Y chromosome which is in EVERY CELL IN HIS HER BODY. That doesn't make me intolerant. Those are just the facts of life. So you see, there is no 'trans' about him her. He's She's a male female no matter what he she does. :nenner:

First, I fixed your post for you.

Secondly, I would hope you would realize how offensive your words are. Sadly, that may be hoping for too much.

You seem woefully uneducated on this subject. Caitlyn Jenner is transgender because she internally identifies as female. If she decides to have gender reassignment surgery, then she will also be transsexual.

Gender Dysphoria is a condition acknowledged by many respected Psychiatry and Medical groups around the world. For example, it is currently listed in the DSM-5 (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders). Here is what it states:

For a person to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, there must be a marked difference between the individual’s expressed/experienced gender and the gender others would assign him or her, and it must continue for at least six months. In children, the desire to be of the other gender must be present and verbalized. This condition causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

Gender dysphoria is manifested in a variety of ways, including strong desires to be treated as the other gender or to be rid of one’s sex characteristics, or a strong conviction that one has feelings and reactions typical of the other gender.

Here is what the APA (American Psychological Assocation) has to say about transgender people:

Sex is assigned at birth, refers to one’s biological status as either male or female, and is associated primarily with physical attributes such as chromosomes, hormone prevalence, and external and internal anatomy. Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for boys and men or girls and women. These influence the ways that people act, interact, and feel about themselves. While aspects of biological sex are similar across different cultures, aspects of gender may differ.

Here is what the APA says about why people are transgender and if there have always been transgendered people:

Transgender persons have been documented in many indigenous, Western, and Eastern cultures and societies from antiquity until the present day. However, the meaning of gender nonconformity may vary from culture to culture.

There is no single explanation for why some people are transgender. The diversity of transgender expression and experiences argues against any simple or unitary explanation. Many experts believe that biological factors such as genetic influences and prenatal hormone levels, early experiences, and experiences later in adolescence or adulthood may all contribute to the development of transgender identities.

So, to make things ridiculously simple for you:

- Gender refers to how someone feels internally.

- Sex refers to anatomy.

- One can be transgender without being transsexual.

- It has nothing to do with someone's chromosomes. People who are transgender or transsexual are not seeking to change their actual chromosomes.

You have a right to your opinion, but please make sure you are educated on the subject before you discuss it further.

[fuscia]

Mama June from Honey Boo Boo is barking to the media how unfair it was they cancelled her show and left the Duggars alone. TLC pulled that show not even a week after the story came out. I hate Honey Boo Boo, but I find myself agreeing with the sentiment. Why hasn't this show been cancelled?

Mama June took her two daughters to see the child molester. Honey Boo Boo is the same age as her sister when she was molested by the guy. Her own mom didn't support or believe the sister who was molested. As awful as the Duggar situation is, I think that June's is beyond disgusting. She put her child at risk and never supported the one who was victimized.

I think that 19 Kids will come back, but they don't know how to do it. IF it does, I think it should be about the older kids sans the parents. I don't agree with their worldview, but I did find it interesting to look into the cult.

[Annabelle Lee]

Mama June is a poor dumb big ole thing,that I feel sorry for her lack of an education . But a money train stage mom .

I do not want the JBoobs back on the tube,because they just think they are so much better than us other Christians (Catholics ). Telling us who to kiss ,who to love,and then having a nasty boy in the house.

We know a family like this ,5 boys, one girl. The girl is 28yrs and never had a date. I said our son saw her on christian Mingle ,mom said her dad said she could for 3 months. How come our son was there? We'll!! He is a Christian and a wonderful man. Have seen this girl look at him . Poor little thing. She just laughed and giggled ,son said she's nice and all . Thank goodness he's a gentleman and treated her like a cousin and made her feel happy.

All the sons went to some sort of training . Oldest is 31 no dated either. These are business people with us, but I always feel like we are judged. The father was so suprised to find out our oldest son was Special Forces, like we couldn't parent a great man! The mother tries to make me feel less of a person.(Big Snark) but in my day I was a real beauty. So she can never take what my dear Mother gave me ,still have it! Am a horse women and do dress that way, so I'm not showing anything. But more like a Ralph Lauren covered up.

Just so sick they can make money for lies and fakeness. And really hate that phoney voice of Dairy Queen. Please keep them on their toes.

[ILoveJellybeans]

It's like this: The concept is a sham. Bruce Jenner can wear dresses, take hormones, have surgery, cut off his penis (which he hasn't done), but he can't remove the male Y chromosome which is in EVERY CELL IN HIS BODY. That doesn't make me intolerant. Those are just the facts of life. So you see, there is no 'trans' about him. He's a male no matter what he does. :nenner:

Gender is not what chromosomes you have, that's the least important thing about being a man/woman. Your gender comes from within your brain, your identity.

How do you know what gender you are? Its not because you looked at your genitalia, is it? What would happen if your brain was put into the opposite gender's body? Do you think that would change anything about your personality and the things you like? Would you be okay with being that way forever, or would you want your old body back? Would you feel right using the opposite pronouns? Would having the opposite genitals make you feel more like the opposite sex? No, it wouldn't, and that is what it is like to be transgender-having a brain that doesn't match your body.

When you see someone, how do you know whether they are a man or a woman? (or neither, which is also a valid option) Im guessing you don't look at their genitalia? That is generally socially unacceptable. No, you go off the way they are presenting-but sometimes even that is wrong, cause gender stereotypes do not apply to the whole population, and you can wear a dress, have long hair and make up, and still identify as male.

Gender identity is not just a black and white thing, its a massive spectrum. The only thing that really matters is how you feel inside, and if Caitlyn Jenner feels female inside, she should be free to do what she wants to her body and her style to feel more like she feels on the inside. Its nobody else's business.

Youre cisgender? Great, good for you, feel free to rock your own gender identity....but leave other people's alone.

[FundieFarmer]

I realize you are trying to be funny, but this sounds a tad sick.

I've read through this conversation, but my reaction remains the same to the first post: :pink-shock: Sure, it may take something terrible to "turn on the lights" as you put it, but fantasizing about that and almost wishing for it (as I gather from your posts) is terrible and inexcusable.

As far as Caitlyn Jenner...I happen to be cisgender. Apparently you are too. It gives us a lot of societal "privileges", such as not having to put up with the bullshit attitudes of uneducated transphobic people like you. Caitlyn Jenner has done a lot for the transgender community to earn those same privileges of non-judgment that we benefit from every day. VelociRapture is right- gender dysmorphia is a serious condition, and saying it is invalid is just as ridiculous as decrying any other psychological condition. You wouldn't like being forced to live a life that didn't reflect who you are, and neither did Caitlyn, so she did something about it, and I find that honorable. At the rate you're going, you ought to join Jill Rodrigues in her bathroom because you sound identical.

[DuggarWatch]

Okay...how does having a Y chromosome have anything to do with what Caitlyn chooses to do with her life? She does not feel that a man is who she really is, she is living her life how she sees herself... just the inability to change the fact that she is genetically a male doesn't mean the concept of non binary genders is a "sham."

Bruce Jenner doesn't have 'a Y chromosome.' He has 37 trillion Y chromosomes, one for every cell in his male body! And that's a fact he cannot change no matter how many hormones he takes. Those 37 trillion Y's are there to stay. And maybe that's why he says that he is still attracted just to women, not to men. :cray-cray:

[FundieFarmer]

Bruce Jenner doesn't have 'a Y chromosome.' He has 37 trillion Y chromosomes, one for every cell in his male body! And that's a fact he cannot change no matter how many hormones he takes. Those 37 trillion Y's are there to stay. And maybe that's why he says that he is still attracted just to women, not to men. :cray-cray:

Sure, cell-wise the Y chromosomes remain. That's not the point. Chromosomes don't determine who someone is interested in, or their gender. By that logic, no woman would ever be attracted to anyone other than a man, but I bet Ruby Rose would disagree with you there.

[Evenkeel]

Bruce Jenner doesn't have 'a Y chromosome.' He has 37 trillion Y chromosomes, one for every cell in his male body! And that's a fact he cannot change no matter how many hormones he takes. Those 37 trillion Y's are there to stay. And maybe that's why he says that he is still attracted just to women, not to men. :cray-cray:

The are plenty of people out there who are intersex, with variations on the X/Y chromosomes. There are some women who are X/X/Y with female sexual characteristics. How about X/Y/Y? How about chimerism or mosaicism? If there are any "male" chromosomal patterns in any cells then they automatically should be considered male and "act appropriately"? Babies that are born with ambiguous genitalia and are intersex should automatically be assigned "male" and have "corrective" surgery and lifelong hormone supplements so that they "look the part"? Gender goes far beyond genetics and it's high time that people educated themselves and applied a little critical thinking before spouting off about what's "natural and right."

[Evenkeel]

Sure, cell-wise the Y chromosomes remain. But chromosomes don't determine who someone is interested in. By that logic, no woman would ever be attracted to anyone other than a man, but I bet Ruby Rose would disagree with you there.

I wasn't even going to touch that because I can probably predict how that will go down. "People aren't born that way." I'd bet a lot of money on that one.

[FundieFarmer]

I wasn't even going to touch that because I can probably predict how that will go down. "People aren't born that way." I'd bet a lot of money on that one.

Fundies do love their "choice" arguments! :roll:

[Firiel]

Sure, cell-wise the Y chromosomes remain. That's not the point. Chromosomes don't determine who someone is interested in, or their gender. By that logic, no woman would ever be attracted to anyone other than a man, but I bet Ruby Rose would disagree with you there.

Yeah, I'm guessing the poster doesn't "support" homosexuality either... :?

[Eponine]

Bruce Jenner doesn't have 'a Y chromosome.' He has 37 trillion Y chromosomes, one for every cell in his male body! And that's a fact he cannot change no matter how many hormones he takes. Those 37 trillion Y's are there to stay.

I mean, you're correct, but that has nothing to do with gender. Sex ≠ gender. Chromosomes are completely irrelevant to gender.

[HWest]

I've read through this conversation, but my reaction remains the same to the first post: :pink-shock: Sure, it may take something terrible to "turn on the lights" as you put it, but fantasizing about that and almost wishing for it (as I gather from your posts) is terrible and inexcusable.

As far as Caitlyn Jenner...I happen to be cisgender. Apparently you are too. It gives us a lot of societal "privileges", such as not having to put up with the bullshit attitudes of uneducated transphobic people like you. Caitlyn Jenner has done a lot for the transgender community to earn those same privileges of non-judgment that we benefit from every day. VelociRapture is right- gender dysmorphia is a serious condition, and saying it is invalid is just as ridiculous as decrying any other psychological condition. You wouldn't like being forced to live a life that didn't reflect who you are, and neither did Caitlyn, so she did something about it, and I find that honorable. At the rate you're going, you ought to join Jill Rodrigues in her bathroom because you sound identical.

You can comment on my fantasy idea for a Duggar show but I have not made one single comment in this forum about Caitlyn Jenner topic and for the record I am fully supportive of Caitlyn's journey. Also in 1977 I went on a dinner date with Bruce Jenner. At that time I can say Bruce presented as a very delightful male.

[FundieFarmer]

You can comment on my fantasy idea for a Duggar show but I have not made one single comment in this forum about Caitlyn Jenner topic and for the record I am fully supportive of Caitlyn's journey. Also in 1977 I went on a dinner date with Bruce Jenner. At that time I can say Bruce presented as a very delightful male.

Oh gosh, sorry. Should've clarified that wasn't directed at you, but at the other person! Not wild about the birthing clinic idea but I've said my piece there. I know you didn't say anything about Caitlyn Jenner. Sorry sorry sorry!

[GiggleOfGirls]

Personally, I think the Duggars will start a Wedding and Honeymoon Suite business so that leghumpers who want to start their own quivers can get married and begin their procreation (while getting lots of HUGE family logistical tips in person!) at the One and Only Duggarland where something is clearly in the water.

[lostfemme]

Bruce Jenner doesn't have 'a Y chromosome.' He has 37 trillion Y chromosomes, one for every cell in his male body! And that's a fact he cannot change no matter how many hormones he takes. Those 37 trillion Y's are there to stay. And maybe that's why he says that he is still attracted just to women, not to men. :cray-cray:

So? If it's cray-cray, who is it hurting? Not you. Not me. So why not allow Caitlyn to be Caitlyn and everything that entails. Does it really injure you to change pronouns? What part of Caitlyn's decision is making you suffer and why do YOU feel like the definitions of male and female have to be tied to preconceptions? Trans people have existed since the beginning of the human record and probably long before. There is no point in you claiming "XY makes you a man, so be a MAN!" Trans still exists. No amount of foot stomping on your part is going to erase trans people.

So maybe you shouldn't invest so much emotion in an issue you can't understand or change.

[apple1]

Mama June is a poor dumb big ole thing,that I feel sorry for her lack of an education . But a money train stage mom .

I do not want the JBoobs back on the tube,because they just think they are so much better than us other Christians (Catholics ). Telling us who to kiss ,who to love,and then having a nasty boy in the house.

We know a family like this ,5 boys, one girl. The girl is 28yrs and never had a date. I said our son saw her on christian Mingle ,mom said her dad said she could for 3 months. How come our son was there? We'll!! He is a Christian and a wonderful man. Have seen this girl look at him . Poor little thing. She just laughed and giggled ,son said she's nice and all . Thank goodness he's a gentleman and treated her like a cousin and made her feel happy.

All the sons went to some sort of training . Oldest is 31 no dated either. These are business people with us, but I always feel like we are judged. The father was so suprised to find out our oldest son was Special Forces, like we couldn't parent a great man! The mother tries to make me feel less of a person.(Big Snark) but in my day I was a real beauty. So she can never take what my dear Mother gave me ,still have it! Am a horse women and do dress that way, so I'm not showing anything. But more like a Ralph Lauren covered up.

Just so sick they can make money for lies and fakeness. And really hate that phoney voice of Dairy Queen. Please keep them on their toes.

Is this a real post?

Disclaimer: I'm not a HoneyBooBoo fan in any way. But there are (IMO) plenty of actual reasons to have the show pulled without your nonsense.

"poor dumb big ole thing" Let's see. Fat shaming. Poor - maybe, maybe not, depending on what has happened with the money from the show. Dumb - Your use of the word is rude at best. Ole thing - Really? (The grammar, spelling, and punctuation in your post don't make you appear particularly educated).

I can't even with the rest of this post.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Bruce Jenner doesn't have 'a Y chromosome.' He has 37 trillion Y chromosomes, one for every cell in his male body! And that's a fact he cannot change no matter how many hormones he takes. Those 37 trillion Y's are there to stay. And maybe that's why he says that he is still attracted just to women, not to men. :cray-cray:

Sex and gender are somewhat close together and go together most of the time, but sexual orientation? That's waaay over there, on the other side of the room. Your X or Y chromosome has nothing to do with your sexual orientation. You can be trans and be gay, or be trans and straight, or asexual, pansexual, bisexual... It doesn't make a transgender woman any less of a woman to be attracted to other women.

Saying that Caitlyn's attraction to women is because she was born with male genitalia/Y chromosomes makes a lot of offensive assumptions about gender and sexuality.

Being attracted to women is not a male trait, it is unrelated to being male or female. Heterosexuality is not the default, it is just the most common.

Being gay and transgender does not make you any less transgender, as these things are not related.

Your gender identity does not affect your sexual orientation. If you transition from one gender to another, you don't suddenly swap your sexual orientation over. If you liked women as a man, you will like women as a woman. I guess that's the simplest way of describing it, but actually that man never really existed, she didn't just wake up one morning and decide "Im a woman now", its been inside all along, and the majority of transgender people knew their brain didn't match their body when they were really young.

Being trans does not make you gay, and being gay does not mean you are trans. Real LGBT people are a mixed bunch of every possible kind of people, not stereotypes. Lesbians do not want to be men, and gay men don't want to be women. Not all lesbians have short hair and dress in a very butch way, not all gay men love musicals and are hairdressers.

[ShepherdontheRock]

...seriously (directed at person being anti-trans/LGBT) why are you feeling the need to derail a thread by being a hateful troll about things that do not have shit to do with you?

[Nic]

The only new Duggar show I would watch would film the older Duggar children experiencing the outside world on their own, without their parents, without buddies or family babysitters. Jinger going to the Guggenheim or the Met or taking a design course with other fabulous students, yep, I'd watch that. Jana trying to find work as a nanny or going to music school. Interesting! Jessa persuing a career as a right-wing religious commentator on TV, even there she would have her feet knocked out from under her, grow and learn, Jessa. Josiah and Marjorie courting and enjoying lots of theater, working the stage at Dollywood or Branson Missouri, learning stage craft, they could take musical theater workshops at U of Arkansas. Joseph could get an internship with a religious organization in England (oh dear! He could meet Muslims!) or, better yet, Eastern Europe where people are damn sick of being told how to feel, think, and look according to patriarchal organizations.

Any or all of that would be fantastic! I'd watch the Duggars again if they were allowed to explore the world on their own terms. But any more Jim Bob, Michelle and Josh and I'll be firing off emails to TLC again.

What makes you think that if they have these experiences they would so with an open mind? They've all heard the arguments for dinosaurs and big bang and still thinks it's a load of horse pucky.

Look at the Kirk Cameron-- he's had a lot of experiences, yet he still manages to have his batshit crazy views.

If I watched the Duggars having these terrific experiences and still hold onto those narrow minded views, I'd go MENTAL.

Edited to change word THIS to STILL

[RosyDaisy]

Wow! Redneck stereotyping and transgender/transsexual bashing. Fuck whoever said these things. You are truly bigoted and ignorant.

[ShepherdontheRock]

What makes you think that if they have these experiences they would so with an open mind? They've all heard the arguments for dinosaurs and big bang and this thinks it's a load of horse pucky.

Look at the Kirk Cameron-- he's had a lot of experiences, yet he still manages to have his batshit crazy views.

If I watched the Duggars having these terrific experiences and still hold onto those narrow minded views, I'd go MENTAL.

Or maybe they've heard it in the context of incorrect scientific explanation (ie, evolution being humans come from monkeys)