The vaccinated are the most sick!

[Boogalou]

Someone on my Facebook shared this article which is generally kind of stupid, but it makes this claim:

Unfortunately, it is the vaccinated that are getting hit the hardest with disease spikes like measles and whooping cough and like the fox with its tail cut off are encouraged by the media to blame others for not having their tails removed too. - See more at: http://www.naturalblaze.com/2015/04/par ... b1brD.dpuf

Which is all kinds of WTF. How can someone make this claim? Where are they getting their statistics from and how are they twisting them so much?

naturalblaze.com/2015/04/parent-offers-epic-response-to-vaccine.html

[doggie]

after reading this page I have seen far worse. according to antivaxxers people who get vaccinated Shed the virus all over others. kids who have not been vaccinated have natural immunities and the vaccinated have weakened immune systems. it is crazy all the stuff I have read. they think they know more then doctors and doctors are not educated and more and more.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Things-a ... 25?fref=nf

[mango_fandango]

Ha ha ha! Yeah! Because when there was a measles outbreak in Wales a couple of years ago and then the more recent outbreak at Disneyworld, it was the VACCINATED kids who suffered. Jesus H. Christ. The measles outbreak in Wales actually caused people to go and get vaccinated. Go figure.

[momof2treasures]

It's a play on statistics most likely. Or just a blatant lie lol. If you think about it even vaccinations have a failure rate. Not sure exactly what but I know it's low maybe 2%. You also have a lot lower number of people choosing to not vaccinate.So you may end up with a larger number of vaccinated folks catching measles but it doesn't matter. Statistics say your still way more likely to catch measles when exposed if your not vaccinated. It's the percent that counts not the actual number.

[August]

Momof2, the failure rate for many vaccines is much higher than that. I know that measles for example, is maybe 90%? And then with the second one another majority become immune. The effectiveness decreases with age for measles which is why some countries give the vax at 18 months, and why they don't give it at six months.

Then you have the flu vax, with varying effectiveness depending on which strains are most common each year. Wasn't it 30% this year?

after reading this page I have seen far worse. according to antivaxxers people who get vaccinated Shed the virus all over others. kids who have not been vaccinated have natural immunities and the vaccinated have weakened immune systems. it is crazy all the stuff I have read. they think they know more then doctors and doctors are not educated and more and more.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Things-a ... 25?fref=nf

Doggie, people given a live vaccine can shed the virus. Polio is an excellent example. It's complicated but part of the reason we need to keep vaxxing is because of vaccinated people shedding live infective virus. Measles is also a live attenuated vax. I'm not sure if you shed, though.

Imcan explain the faulty reasoning they're using (gosh, not antivaxers with faulty reasoning! How surprising!), but have to go do some stuff right now.

[happy atheist]

And yet there's this, posted yesterday:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/goatsandsoda/2 ... es-vaccine

When you get the measles, your immune system is suppressed for several years, making you more vulnerable to everything else.

Back in the 1960s, the U.S. started vaccinating kids for measles. As expected, children stopped getting measles.

But something else happened.

Childhood deaths from all infectious diseases plummeted. Even deaths from diseases like pneumonia and diarrhea were cut by half.

"In some developing countries, where infectious diseases are very high, the reduction in mortality has been up to 80 percent," says Michael Mina, a postdoc in biology at Princeton University and a medical student at Emory University.

The team obtained epidemiological data from the U.S., Denmark, Wales and England dating back to the 1940s. Using computer models, they found that the number of measles cases in these countries predicted the number of deaths from other infections two to three years later.

"We found measles predisposes children to all other infectious diseases for up to a few years," Mina says.

"Hence the reduction in overall child mortality that follows measles vaccination is much greater than previously believed," says Moss, who wasn't involved in the study.

That finding should give parents more motivation to vaccinate their kids, he says. "I think this paper will provide additional evidence — if it's needed — of the public health benefits of measles vaccine," Moss says. "That's an important message in the U.S. right now and in countries continuing to see measles outbreaks."

Because if the world can eliminate measles, it will help protect kids from many other infections, too.

[doggie]

Doggie, people given a live vaccine can shed the virus. Polio is an excellent example. It's complicated but part of the reason we need to keep vaxxing is because of vaccinated people shedding live infective virus. Measles is also a live attenuated vax. I'm not sure if you shed, though.

Imcan explain the faulty reasoning they're using (gosh, not antivaxers with faulty reasoning! How surprising!), but have to go do some stuff right now.

yes but it is rare. but the antivaxxers think all vaccines shed. MMR included. I have seen many people claim their unvaxxed kid has gotten the vaccine from a shedding kid and they are vaccine injured from it.

[imokit]

Polio is given live in poor countries where vaccination programmes are tricky. There's a better response to the live vaccine, however there is a very small risk of it reactivating and someone getting polio. This is the oral polio vaccine.

Most developed countries are using an injection which does not have any live virus in it and can't give it to either the patient receiving the vaccine or anyone else. The problem with this vaccine is that people don't respond as well to it and thus need boosters.

That's why it can be used in places where the population has good access to health care and can access them, but oral polio is used in places where you need as many people to mount some response as possible.

http://www.who.int/biologicals/areas/va ... elitis/en/

http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/polio-a ... accination

[August]

The antivaxxers' claim that more vaxxed people get sick than unvaxxed is quite amusingly stupid. Their reasoning goes like this: 30 vaxxed people got sick, and only 20 unvaxxed people, so obv vaxxes are stupid!!!!1!!!

The reasons behind those figures, of course, show the opposite. Let's say we have a population of 10,050 people, of whom 50 are unvaccinated and 10,000 are vaccinated. This vax is very effective, 90% of people are immune after their first shot, and a further 8% become immune after the second shot, leaving only 2% of the vaxxed population not immune, which is not a problem, because that's not enough people to sustain a disease, given that they'll be randomly spreadout among immune folks. So in this community there are 50 unvaxed (and susceptible) and 200 vaxed and susceptible.

The disease come along and infects 20% of susceptible people, 10 unvaxed and 40 vaxxed. And the antivaxxers then claim that more vaxxed people get sick than unvaxxed people, completely ignoring the fact that the risk for an unvaxxed person to get sick was 1 in 5, and for a vaxxed person was 1 in 250.

Yes, more vaccinated people will get sick in any given outbreak, but that's because there are so so so many more of us.

If you're concerned about whether you're immune after getting a vaccine you can get them to check your titres, it's easily done with a blood test.

Polio is given live in poor countries where vaccination programmes are tricky. There's a better response to the live vaccine, however there is a very small risk of it reactivating and someone getting polio. This is the oral polio vaccine.

Most developed countries are using an injection which does not have any live virus in it and can't give it to either the patient receiving the vaccine or anyone else. The problem with this vaccine is that people don't respond as well to it and thus need boosters.

That's why it can be used in places where the population has good access to health care and can access them, but oral polio is used in places where you need as many people to mount some response as possible.

http://www.who.int/biologicals/areas/va ... elitis/en/

http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/polio-a ... accination

That's sort of right. The transition from oral to injected (IPV) is made once the risk of harm from the vaccine rises higher than the risk of harm from the disease. Most first world countries have now made the switch, but they don't go back and give a three shot series to all adults, so the population is a mix of people with oral immunity and IPV immunity. And that's very important because of the basis of the immunity from the two different vaccines. People with injected immunity can be infected and pass the virus through their digestive system but not get sick from it, while people with oral immunity won't get it at all. So polio could quite easily be circulating in a population which is largely IPV'd and not oral'd

From the polio eradication initiative

An increasing number of industrialized, polio-free countries are using IPV as the vaccine of choice. This is because the risk of paralytic polio associated with continued routine use of oral polio vaccine (OPV) is deemed greater than the risk of imported wild virus.

However, as IPV does not stop transmission of the virus, oral polio vaccine is used wherever a polio outbreak needs to be contained, even in countries which rely exclusively on IPV for their routine immunization programme (e.g. the polio outbreak in the Netherlands in 1992).

IPV is not recommended for routine use in polio-endemic countries or in developing countries at risk of poliovirus importations. In these countries, oral polio vaccines – either trivalent, bivalent or monovalent, depending on local epidemiology – are used.

Once polio has been eradicated, use of the oral polio vaccine will need to be stopped to prevent re-establishment of transmission due to vaccine-derived polioviruses. Switching to IPV is one option for this post-OPV era. - See more at: http://www.polioeradication.org/Polioan ... aspx#.dpuf

[notsocommon]

You want to see some serious anti vax insanity on FB? Check out the Vaccine Resistance Movement

https://www.facebook.com/groups/Vaccine ... eMovement/

[doggie]

there is some serious crazy out there. the vaccine issue is just part of it,

If folks are looking for the answer to stopping the vaccine PUSH--I highly recommend (and I can't stress this enough!!) look up Urine therapy. ((Urine is NOT waste. It is the filtration of blood. It hold the same as blood plasma!! This is your own personal "juicer"! Look into it before discrediting it. It has cured many ailments. This is the body's own personal "reading" as to what the body needs to fix. THIS is the natural vaccine. True story!!

[maybeizfundie]

I just read that stuff and chuckle to myself.

If it's in my facebook feed, it's most likely coming from someone who has been bemoaning their family's "allergies"/whooping cough/stomach bugs/RSV/pneumonia from November through May of every year. There is one whose entire family got whooping cough and whose young daughter has ongoing repercussions from the infection. But still! They are SO much healthier than all the zombie-vaxxers out there.

:roll:

[August]

The CDC recommendations from 1997:

These revised recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) replace recommendations on poliomyelitis issued in 1982 and 1987, and present a new ACIP poliovirus vaccination policy that increases reliance on inactivated poliovirus vaccine (IPV). This change in policy is the most substantive since the introduction of oral poliovirus vaccine (OPV) in 1961. ACIP has determined that the risk-benefit ratio associated with the exclusive use of OPV for routine immunization has changed because of rapid progress in global polio eradication efforts. In particular, the relative benefits of OPV to the U.S. population have diminished because of the elimination of wild-virus-associated poliomyelitis in the Western Hemisphere and the reduced threat of poliovirus importation into the United States. The risk for vaccine-associated poliomyelitis caused by OPV is now judged less acceptable because of the diminished risk for wild-virus-associated disease (indigenous or imported). Consequently, ACIP recommends a transition policy that will increase use of IPV and decrease use of OPV during the next 3-5 years.

The revised recommendations include three options for poliovirus vaccination, all of which meet acceptable standards of care: sequential vaccination with IPV followed by OPV, OPV alone, or IPV alone. For overall public health benefit, ACIP recommends a sequential vaccination schedule of two doses of IPV followed by two doses of OPV for routine childhood vaccination. Vaccination schedules that include OPV alone or IPV alone are also acceptable and are preferred in some situations (e.g., IPV alone is recommended for children who are immunosuppressed; OPV alone is preferred for children who begin the primary vaccination schedule after 6 months of age). Implementation of these recommendations should reduce the risk for vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis and facilitate a transition to exclusive use of IPV following further progress in global polio eradication.

So, the vast majority of people over the age of 18 are orally immune, and some proportion of people under 18 are also orally immune. I'd love to see what they'd find if they tested sewage for polio virus.

More here (from 5 min in)

http://www.microbeworld.org/component/c ... le?id=1810

[momof2treasures]

Thanks august! You explained that perfectly!

[August]

Thanks! I feel very strongly that we need to understand what they're claiming so we can directly refute it, and also that we shouldn't gloss over anything, especially things like shedding and effectiveness rates. They're not the secret shameful achilles heel that antivaxxers think they are.

The claim that vaxxed children are sick all the time with colds and infections is fascinating, and ties into an article I saw somewhere. It said that antivaxxers assume that way more people don't vax than is the case, so they see my brutally healthy children (touch wood) and assume I don't vax. Apparently being loud and proud about your kid's vax status is one of the more effective ways to encourage them to vax. They're so scared ofthe one in a million, and don't realise they're literally surrounded by fully vaxxed kids who are the image of health and vitality.

[doggie]

The best thing to do is ask the parents how vax -damaged are you? They claim so much damage you would think they all would be crippled. Well mentally a lot of them are so maybe they are onto something

[notsocommon]

Shedding does not work like the anti vaxers claim it does. They think it means you can catch, say, Measles from the recently vaccinated....Uh, no.

[doggie]

Shedding does not work like the anti vaxers claim it does. They think it means you can catch, say, Measles from the recently vaccinated....Uh, no.

I know it is crazy pox parties good vaccinated kids bad the want these wild virus.

[August]

Shedding does not work like the anti vaxers claim it does. They think it means you can catch, say, Measles from the recently vaccinated....Uh, no.

Not from measles, but from some others (polio, chicken pox, rotavirus and smallpox). It's a concern if you live with someone who is immune compromised. It isn't a good idea to dismiss these sorts of things out of hand. We should acknowledge it, explain it and quantify the real risk and real precautions. For example, when I took a child to get a live polio vax and hadn't had a booster myself for years they gave me one too.

From about.com

the chicken pox vaccine doesn't cause shedding unless your child very rarely develops a vesicular rash after getting vaccinated. However, the risk is thought to be minimal and the CDC reports only 5 cases of transmission of varicella vaccine virus after immunization among over 55 million doses of vaccine.

the rotavirus vaccine only causes shedding in stool, so can be avoided with routine hygiene techniques, such as good hand washing, and if immunocompromised people avoid diaper changes, etc., for at least a week after a child gets a rotavirus vaccine