What's the deal with Jana and John David?

[Cleopatra7]

Somehow I do not believe that JD has a "list" of women that want to court him. JB was probably joking when he said that.

I don't know about that. From a Gothard perspective, JD is not just a good catch, he's practically royalty. Given how the other Duggar spouses and fiancees have been leghumpers/fans, I can completely believe that there are a bunch of fundie women who are interested in being Mrs. JD Duggar. Unlike the regular fundie male, who probably has little to bring to the table other than a "testimony," JD is in a position to be choosy.

[nolongerIFBx]

snip

With their advancing age (by fundie standards), they are already naturally limiting the size of their families, without having to indulge in "sinful" birth control.

snip

Actually it only limits Jana's family size. Nothing to keep JD from marrying a 17 year old and still having a mega family.

[iheartjnames]

I think that JimBob is mad neither of them are in relationships. It makes him and MIch look bad. This is an organization that believes you should marry young and pump out babies for the kingdom, and these two need to get with the program. How worldly to get married in your late 20's. It is not from a lack of interactions, c'mom there were just hundreds of people at their house for two weddings in the last year.

These two just keep saying no, maybe it is Jana and JD's way of rebelling :D

[SassyPants]

Smartest 2 Duggars on the planet-

[nolongerIFBx]

I married one of these men. He was an assistant volunteer fire chief, worked construction, was in paramedic school, had his boat and his four wheeler and thoroughly enjoyed his life. We worked together on the volunteer ambulance, realized we had fallen for each other, and got married like two months later.

He's a good guy. Works hard, plays hard, loves me and the kids, still is a volunteer fire chief. Not so many toys these days, but that's because kids are freaking expensive. And I am convinced he would still be living with his parents if I hadn't showed up in his life.(he was, and is, completely clueless about women)

Actually JD reminds me a lot of him. My husband would appear just as awkward(and a tad annoyed) on television.

I think JD is really just a good ol boy who enjoys his life and is waiting for a woman to fall in his lap, and if she doesn't, he's not too worried.

Sableduck! Welcome back.

[apandaaries]

I think that JimBob is mad neither of them are in relationships. It makes him and MIch look bad. This is an organization that believes you should marry young and pump out babies for the kingdom, and these two need to get with the program. How worldly to get married in your late 20's. It is not from a lack of interactions, c'mom there were just hundreds of people at their house for two weddings in the last year.

These two just keep saying no, maybe it is Jana and JD's way of rebelling :D

I could also see this as a quiet rebellion on their parts. They're not playing the game of life the way they were properly taught -- not without spouses and children.

These later in life marriages for self-identified fundamentalist Christians make for an interesting phenomenon. I know they pick and choose their verses, but Orthodox Jews believe it's sinful for men to be unmarried past a certain age (I believe 20), because anytime he "spills his seed" on unfertile ground, it's a big problem for God. Yet we see so very many kidults who cannot or will not leave the house.

Then again, this is the same system which encourages only the tiniest bit of learning and absolutely no freedom for women, yet none of them see the similarities between their oppressive culture and say, Saudi Arabia's strict control of women.

[Cleopatra7]

I could also see this as a quiet rebellion on their parts. They're not playing the game of life the way they were properly taught -- not without spouses and children.

These later in life marriages for self-identified fundamentalist Christians make for an interesting phenomenon. I know they pick and choose their verses, but Orthodox Jews believe it's sinful for men to be unmarried past a certain age (I believe 20), because anytime he "spills his seed" on unfertile ground, it's a big problem for God. Yet we see so very many kidults who cannot or will not leave the house.

Then again, this is the same system which encourages only the tiniest bit of learning and absolutely no freedom for women, yet none of them see the similarities between their oppressive culture and say, Saudi Arabia's strict control of women.

Jesus makes all the difference. When a woman covers up because Quran, that's bad. When a woman covers up because Jesus, then everything is all good.

[Feberin]

Actually it only limits Jana's family size. Nothing to keep JD from marrying a 17 year old and still having a mega family.

Yes but if he is delaying marriage for a smaller sized family then he also could marry a 30 year old. However I wouldn't be shocked if JD never marries.

[texpatriategames]

A few discussions in other threads have sparked some questions for me (and if it seems like this discussion is too tightly linked to another thread, feel free to merge). What is the deal with Jana and John David? This first set of twins appear to be some of the quietest in the family, and obviously their love lives (or lack thereof) have been the topic of much discussion. What are your theories?

Personally, I'm leaning toward a combination of naturally shy personalities mixed with early and ferocious "training" in the way of Gothard. With their advancing age (by fundie standards), they are already naturally limiting the size of their families, without having to indulge in "sinful" birth control. I suspect this is due to the extreme conditions of their childhood. Michelle's three course rice meals may have sounded funny to some, but I bet her children were anxious and food insecure (see also: Josh's ever-increasing waistline). Jana sticking around the TTH has the added benefit of ensuring that some younger siblings are still cared for, despite Michelle's lunacy. Gotta be honest, though -- the longer she waits around, the more frightened I'd imagine she'd be of her wedding night. Zero to sixty (sexty?) is quite the accelerated learning curve -- I'd be terrified if it were me, to be honest. John-David can also ensure that his siblings are doing at least okay, if not well. [Don't know the details, but wasn't there also a hard working Bates son who served as a kind of lending center for his siblings? Could be wrong, but JD strikes me as a similar sturdy, reliable figure, if not the most mature amongst men.]

I'd really love to hear your favorite theories about the twins.

I didn't grow up a Duggar, but I didn't sleep with anybody until I was about Jana's age. I was not married to them. I didn't go from zero to sexty (love that), but when I met a guy I had chemistry with who wanted me, it happened pretty fast. However, before it did, I was all worried about if it was even possible for someone to sleep with me because I was an Old Maid(enhead). Turns out yes, yes it was. I had plenty of baggage from growing up in a sexually unhealthy environment (thanks, Bible Belt) but nowhere near like the Duggars. I waited that long to have sex partly because it took me that long to get comfortable, I guess. I was terrified of pregnancy, too, and I didn't grow up believing birth control was a sin! But my crappy abstinence-only education made me believe pregnancy was inevitable, because that's what happened to Women of Loose Morals. So I think I just took myself off the market, consciously or not.

Tl;dr: I could believe Jana is not getting married because the whole idea of sex and pregnancy terrifies her, and this is the easiest way to ensure it doesn't happen.

[Guest LilaFowler]

1. I don't think Jana is needed at home

2. I don't think she's staying single because of her younger siblings.

3. I don't think she is trying to limit her family size.

4. I don't think JD is scaring is off her suitors :? .

My theory is that Jana hasn't found the right guy(and vice versa). It happens. Not all fundies get married in their early twenties.

I agree. All these theories have no basis. Like imagining Jana is staying single so she doesn't have as many children as Michelle...no. Jana is a sweet person, I think, but she's clearly drank the Kool Aid and is going to have as many kids as she can once she gets married, and just hasn't found the right person. She seems like a classic Quiverfull fundie who wants a husband and kids as many kids as possible and to do right by her God. (All the Duggar kids do, frankly, whether it's by true desire or by brainwashing).

But at the same time, in watching the show since the very first "14 Kids" special, there is a big difference between Jana and her family. She seems to have shown none of the arrogance and "holier than though" attitude about their religion and beliefs like the other family members have. She doesn't do the "My way is the right way, and all the others are going to hell", hoity toity thing the other Duggars do. Besides her being beautiful and seemingly genuinely nice, this is why she's my favorite Duggar. I think she's one of the few of the Duggars that has a true "servant's heart." I will root for Jana no matter what. If she becomes a classic fundie wife, I'll root for her to be happy. If she runs away and goes to school (which is 99.9% unlikely, I'll root for her). I think Jana is good people, a diamond in the ruff in the Duggar family.

[hapamama]

John David doesn't want to get married. He's straight up lax about it. His Dad bugs him, he apparently has a list of women who "applied" to meet him and pursue him. For whatever reason, he's not going to marry until he has to. This is puzzling to me, because he is about 26 and does not have a physical romantic partner. That would have proven impossible for me much sooner....definitely by age 18 or 19.

Or maybe he is just one of those people who aren't all that interested in sex.

[realist51]

So many times the question has been asked, "What brought you to Free Jinger?" and I have never taken the time to answer, but THIS is the answer. Because of my work, I have come in contact with many, many people from strict Muslim cultures and many Saudis, both men and women. I was always fascinated by the Saudis because, frankly, they do not appear to be unhappy. They love their families, which tend to be very close, they are part of a system that takes good care of them and demands little, and they have a LOT of free time to pursue their interests. These observations got me wondering about the trade-offs of freedom to deviate from what the culture dictates to the security of just going along. THOSE ponderings led me straight to the Duggars, and I have been fascinated ever since. I call them the American Saudis, and I will be interested to see if many of them really DO break away. My guess is that most of them won't. (Oh, one big difference: the Saudis I know are serious about educating their girls.) (Also, the Saudis who recognize that the oil gravy train won't last forever see the importance of a RATIONAL--not religious-based--education for everyone.)

[apandaaries]

I didn't grow up a Duggar, but I didn't sleep with anybody until I was about Jana's age. I was not married to them. I didn't go from zero to sexty (love that), but when I met a guy I had chemistry with who wanted me, it happened pretty fast. However, before it did, I was all worried about if it was even possible for someone to sleep with me because I was an Old Maid(enhead). Turns out yes, yes it was. I had plenty of baggage from growing up in a sexually unhealthy environment (thanks, Bible Belt) but nowhere near like the Duggars. I waited that long to have sex partly because it took me that long to get comfortable, I guess. I was terrified of pregnancy, too, and I didn't grow up believing birth control was a sin! But my crappy abstinence-only education made me believe pregnancy was inevitable, because that's what happened to Women of Loose Morals. So I think I just took myself off the market, consciously or not.

Tl;dr: I could believe Jana is not getting married because the whole idea of sex and pregnancy terrifies her, and this is the easiest way to ensure it doesn't happen.

Welcome to the board! And thanks for sharing. I didn't grow up with religious rules dictating my upbringing, but I am fascinated with how those cultures scar those raised within them. It seems like a LOT of people are trained to completely deny any feelings, especially those of the body. It seems like it'd be much easier to just decide one had "the gift of celibacy" and move on without ever exploring that aspect of life.

On a scarier note, I do recall Jana sent off to all those Journeys of the Heart, and we now know that a lot of unsavory activities were taking place there. Maybe she was protected with her Duggar daughter status, but it seems like these submissive teachings for girls/women provide excellent early grooming for molesters (like Doug Phillips, the notorious tool). I'm inclined to think that other girls (adoptees and those from less famous families) were at higher risk, but I am curious.

So many times the question has been asked, "What brought you to Free Jinger?" and I have never taken the time to answer, but THIS is the answer. Because of my work, I have come in contact with many, many people from strict Muslim cultures and many Saudis, both men and women. I was always fascinated by the Saudis because, frankly, they do not appear to be unhappy. They love their families, which tend to be very close, they are part of a system that takes good care of them and demands little, and they have a LOT of free time to pursue their interests. These observations got me wondering about the trade-offs of freedom to deviate from what the culture dictates to the security of just going along. THOSE ponderings led me straight to the Duggars, and I have been fascinated ever since. I call them the American Saudis, and I will be interested to see if many of them really DO break away. My guess is that most of them won't. (Oh, one big difference: the Saudis I know are serious about educating their girls.) (Also, the Saudis who recognize that the oil gravy train won't last forever see the importance of a RATIONAL--not religious-based--education for everyone.)

The Duggars system demands quite a lot in terms of time and energy, though it doesn't offer much of a personal return on investment. They can drive (with a buddy), but don't have true opportunities for education. What I know of Saudi Arabia has come from books (some of which were rather sensationalistic) and news reports, so I feel limited in trying to make comparisons there. However, from the Muslim families I know here in the US (originally from a number of different countries, but none Saudi), most seem to have typical large family benefits and problems. More of the problems tend to come from older uncles still living abroad. They tend to be rather pompous, overbearing, and dictatorial (though I have also spotted this trait in a number of Christian households, too), but they all appreciate girls and women gaining education. They know it's better for the family as a whole.

Maybe Boko Haram is a better comparison, with its absolute abhorrence of Western education, complete focus on ONE right book and its ONE correct interpretation, and abject submission of women. And with that, I think I've wandered pretty far off topic! Tried to find a compass emoji, but I guess I'll just stick with the OT theme and add a shark :character-jaws:

Edited to try to fix a quote but my fingers are failing me. I'll just leave it as is. :embarrassed:

[Mama Mia]

I think this is probably what is going on with JD and probably Joseph as well. He's fundamentally a "good son" who is content to do whatever his parents want him to do, which is why he isn't interested in moving away or expanding his intellectual horizons. While he has a decent work ethic, JD doesn't seem to aspire to any position higher to what his father has done. Now that he has a pilot's license and his own plane, JD may think that he's accomplished everything he needs out of life. I think he may be a brother-dad to his siblings (in one of the Little Rock episodes, Johannah and Jackson spoke of him like they would a father figure) and that may fill any desire he might have for children.

Although there are some big differences, because we aren't fundie, this pretty much perfectly describes my son- who happens to be JDs age

He' had serious girlfriends in the past. But really is content to be working at physical, outdoor, self-employment businesses, spending time with friends, reading, hobbies, hiking with his dog, etc. He's very family focused and his nieces and nephews love him to death.

[iheartjnames]

As I thought about this last night, we really don't know if Jana or JD have been in 'intentional' friendships that did not go to full blown courtship, which I consider to really be called engagement without the ring. I feel that as we saw it unfold on TLC Jill and Derek were pretty far along in their friendship before they officially started courting. There may have been these relationships that for some reason never really got anywhere.

Also, I wonder when Jana starts holding her sister's babies ala Sarah Maxwell, that she might get a little more serious about getting married. JD on the other hand is a bit of an enigma to me.

[tulip]

I've thought that JD and Sarah Maxwell would look cute together, but I have NO idea how in the world that whole situation would play out. But I think they have met. I know I saw at least some of the Maxwells at the 2014 Duggar weddings.

But then when I saw that Heidi Mueller just turned 23 (wow she looks older than 23), she might be a good match for JD too.

As for Jana, I hope she finds a Chad Paine type. I remember how she used to be in the old episodes- so happy and animated. Hopefully she can find someone who makes her feel like that again.

[CaptainFunderpants]

I've thought that JD and Sarah Maxwell would look cute together, but I have NO idea how in the world that whole situation would play out. But I think they have met. I know I saw at least some of the Maxwells at the 2014 Duggar weddings.

But then when I saw that Heidi Mueller just turned 23 (wow she looks older than 23), she might be a good match for JD too.

As for Jana, I hope she finds a Chad Paine type. I remember how she used to be in the old episodes- so happy and animated. Hopefully she can find someone who makes her feel like that again.

I had a dream last night that Jana had found someone wonderful and just as humble/sweet as she is. Name started with a "G" although I couldn't get the whole thing. He had honey-colored hair and was mid-late 20s with a good job outside the home.

[mpheels]

I have a lot of Saudi classmates, including many Saudi women. While there are some alarming limitations put on women in Saudi Arabia, I don't think the limitations on driving and other freedoms are a true reflection of Saudi values as a whole. It's really a reflection of the values of a very small group of men in power, and as the older generation of princes dies out, I expect women will rapidly gain more freedoms. The Saudi power structure clearly values education for women, otherwise the Saudi government would not be investing so much money in foreign graduate school for so many women.

If anyone is looking for an some insight into Saudi women, education, and professional employment, I recommend In the Land of Invisible Women by Qanta Ahmed. Ahmed is a Muslim, British-Pakistani physician, who lived and worked in Riyadh. She peeled through so many layers of otherness - gender, race, religion, education... It's really a fascinating story.

As a side note one of my Saudi classmates is my academic "brother" because we share an adviser. We work together a lot, and routinely use each other as sounding boards for ideas. It's one of the best academic/collaborative relationships I've ever had. I have never once felt that he believes women are inferior or should be submissive.

[FundieFarmer]

I have a lot of Saudi classmates, including many Saudi women. While there are some alarming limitations put on women in Saudi Arabia, I don't think the limitations on driving and other freedoms are a true reflection of Saudi values as a whole. It's really a reflection of the values of a very small group of men in power, and as the older generation of princes dies out, I expect women will rapidly gain more freedoms. The Saudi power structure clearly values education for women, otherwise the Saudi government would not be investing so much money in foreign graduate school for so many women.

If anyone is looking for an some insight into Saudi women, education, and professional employment, I recommend In the Land of Invisible Women by Qanta Ahmed. Ahmed is a Muslim, British-Pakistani physician, who lived and worked in Riyadh. She peeled through so many layers of otherness - gender, race, religion, education... It's really a fascinating story.

As a side note one of my Saudi classmates is my academic "brother" because we share an adviser. We work together a lot, and routinely use each other as sounding boards for ideas. It's one of the best academic/collaborative relationships I've ever had. I have never once felt that he believes women are inferior or should be submissive.

Totally staying on the off-topic train here, but agreed. I had to do extensive studying of the culture in preparation for a business trip to the Kingdom, after nearly a year of interacting with execs from several corporations in Riyadh. One former business investor of mine was very high-ranking within the royal family and was very much forward-thinking. My impression was that even within the royal family, those philosophies are not widely shared, but to turn against the religious leaders would be outrage, so they don't. That was evidenced by his willingness to sit in a room with me, and to get in a car driven by a CEO's wife. (Poor him, she drove like a maniac. We watched from the other car sincerely praying they wouldn't crash.)

To another comment, I agree that for elite Saudi women have a much more luxurious life, but it should be said that those in the lower class do not, and still face much abuse that is in some ways worse than what some (some!!) of these Fundie women endure. It's all relative, though I do think that the ultimate submission to a culture that requires the subordination of women has many parallels.

[CorruptionInc.]

Some people are asexual and if JD is, then so be it.

He is his own person and should be allowed to live that way Boob and Mullet...

[littlesparklingflame]

I agree with those who think that Jana and John-David were the ones that suffered the most when JB and Michelle turned to blanket training and the like.

Plus certainly Jana started very early to be a sister-mum.

I just watched the episode with Jessa and Ben's european honeymoon.

In the final part they are back in Arkansas and Josh and Anna announce baby n. 4 in a family gathering. Then Anna teases Michelle and asks her if she has any announcement. The camera goes to Jana, and she really has a worried (and maybe a little pissed off?) look (and John-David looks uncomfortable, too).

I think she silently has a lot going on in her mind and heart.

[DaysAgo]

I strongly believe that Jana is the keeper of some very dark Duggar secrets.

[friendofgreen]

I bet it's done weird "flowers" in the attack type shit

Josh or mini boob (golden children child pre-jill) probably had it pretty decent- first born son.

I have no doubt Jana and JD did most of the parenting and care for those kids. They're probably who the kids go to first for everything. I can see them both taking personal responsibility for everyone well being

It's probably likely that they see them as they own family and they can't leave because they know how the little ones would be neglected-except Josie

Efautocorrect*

[friendofgreen]

I strongly believe that Jana is the keeper of some very dark Duggar secrets.

Josh and JD too

I can't wait for the tell all

[gustava]

I agree with those who think that Jana and John-David were the ones that suffered the most when JB and Michelle turned to blanket training and the like.

I think they got Jana and JD got the crap beat out of them.