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hockeymoo

What would happen if someone died in childbirth?

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hockeymoo

Sorry to be morbid, but I'm genuinely curious about this - say Michelle had died due to the complications she had with Josie. Do you think Jim Bob would've gone, "Gee, maybe if it hadn't been Michelle's job to be sexually available to me and my needs at all times, she'd still be here and my children would still have a mother"?

 

What do you think would happen to the Quiverfull movement (and Quiverfull-ish families) if mothers were dying?

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Browneyed Girl

Sadly It would be spun faster and tighter than a spider's web. There is no way they'd admit that maybe their way isn't the best way. Don't ya know we're all godless and going to hell and no way would they acknowledge other people might be right.

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NotALoserLikeYou

"The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away."

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Coldwinterskies

I think it's probably true that someone like Jim Bob, who has invested so much into this belief system already, would most likely rationalize it as "God's will". However, I would not be surprised if some of the kids might have their faith shaken by something like that. I have wondered if maybe secretly some of the kids may have been affected by the fact that Michelle's last pregnancy ended in such a horrible tragedy.

I think the Quiverfull movement is an unfortunate unintended consequence of modern medical advancement. Their lifestyle is only possible thanks to the fact that modern healthcare and modern sanitation practices have made childbirth fairly safe for the vast majority of women. In the olden times, most likely Michelle would have died of "childbed fever" many pregnancies ago since infections around the time of childbirth used to be so common and deadly to women.

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Cleopatra7

If some high profile quiverfull mother died in birth, it would be spun as her being a martyr for the pro-life cause, a Protestant version of Gianna Beretta Molla, who refused an abortion to save her life and was canonized by the Vatican for her efforts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gianna_Beretta_Molla

If women were dying en masse for the quiverfull cause like they were a hundred years ago (and still are in the developing world; 800 women die in childbirth every day), I doubt that quiverfull would be a thing because the recklessness of the ideology would be plain to see. Contrary to popular belief, it was never the norm to have families with 11+ live children borne by a single woman and large families have never been very popular. The Greeks and the Romans, for example, disliked large families because having too many male descendents often lead to disputes over got what when the father died (as a rule, daughters borne after the first one tended to be exposed because girls were considered a financial drain). There is nothing traditional about quiverfull ideology, since it is a clear reaction against feminism, the sexual revolution, religious pluralism, and other late twentieth century social trends.

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Four is Enough

Life would go on as usual. The children have (sister) mother. She hasn't mothered them in a very long time.

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BrownieMomma
Sorry to be morbid, but I'm genuinely curious about this - say Michelle had died due to the complications she had with Josie. Do you think Jim Bob would've gone, "Gee, maybe if it hadn't been Michelle's job to be sexually available to me and my needs at all times, she'd still be here and my children would still have a mother"?

What do you think would happen to the Quiverfull movement (and Quiverfull-ish families) if mothers were dying?

Well what's the likelihood that QF mothers will be dying? They are not refusing medical intervention, they go to the hospital, they use real doctors when needed.

If Michelle had not gone to a hospital and allowed a real doctor to assist her, she surely would have died. I honestly believe it is Michelle who is QF and Jim Bob would have happily gone along with whatever she wanted. If she had practiced birth control, he would still get sex so no loss for him there. Jim Bob even stated that on a show, that he just goes along with what Michelle wants.

If a QF mother died in childbirth, she would be lauded as a saint, martyred for the cause. I doubt it would make anyone else rethink QF except perhaps the children who would actually miss her presence in their life. Sad to say, I think the young Duggars are more attached to their buddies than their mother, so they would have that relationship continue.

Believe me, no fundies are looking to Catholic saints for validation or inspiration. St Gianna didn't die in childbirth and to say she died because she refused an abortion is to lie like a Duggar. Or tell the truth like a Duggar, take your pick.

Gianna had 3 options - abortion, hysterectomy or remove the fibroma. She chose to remove the fibroma. She died a few days after childbirth due to peritonitis, which in my lack of medical knowledge, if that happened today, there would be medical interventions that would save her. There is no indication Gianna would have refused medical intervention if it had been available.

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deaja

We would hear a lot of "To live is Christ and to die is gain."

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Nic

I for one would enjoy seeing his Christian Mingle profile... or Tindr.

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FundieFarmer
"The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away."

That was my first thought too, NotALoserLikeYou.

But my real question is this: would husband remarry? Who would he remarry? A young wife, or an older spinster (think Sarah Maxwell) or even another older woman? So many possibilities!

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Cleopatra7

Well what's the likelihood that QF mothers will be dying? They are not refusing medical intervention, they go to the hospital, they use real doctors when needed.

If Michelle had not gone to a hospital and allowed a real doctor to assist her, she surely would have died. I honestly believe it is Michelle who is QF and Jim Bob would have happily gone along with whatever she wanted. If she had practiced birth control, he would still get sex so no loss for him there. Jim Bob even stated that on a show, that he just goes along with what Michelle wants.

If a QF mother died in childbirth, she would be lauded as a saint, martyred for the cause. I doubt it would make anyone else rethink QF except perhaps the children who would actually miss her presence in their life. Sad to say, I think the young Duggars are more attached to their buddies than their mother, so they would have that relationship continue.

Believe me, no fundies are looking to Catholic saints for validation or inspiration. St Gianna didn't die in childbirth and to say she died because she refused an abortion is to lie like a Duggar. Or tell the truth like a Duggar, take your pick.

Gianna had 3 options - abortion, hysterectomy or remove the fibroma. She chose to remove the fibroma. She died a few days after childbirth due to peritonitis, which in my lack of medical knowledge, if that happened today, there would be medical interventions that would save her. There is no indication Gianna would have refused medical intervention if it had been available.

I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV or the Internet. All I know is that in the Catholic circles that I used to run in that Gianna was held up as a model of a woman sacrificing herself rather than get an abortion. That's the lesson that we're supposed to get from this case, even if the details are more complicated. I'm not above admitting when I'm wrong, but don't you dare allege that my intent was to purposely mislead people. :x

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PurpleSheepleEater

They believe that women are suppose to suffer in childbirth so........death is a part of that sometimes. It was God's will. The end.

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BrownieMomma

I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV or the Internet. All I know is that in the Catholic circles that I used to run in that Gianna was held up as a model of a woman sacrificing herself rather than get an abortion. That's the lesson that we're supposed to get from this case, even if the details are more complicated. I'm not above admitting when I'm wrong, but don't you dare allege that my intent was to purposely mislead people. :x

You strike me as an intelligent and capable person Cleopatra. I do not expect that you are going to let misleading information carry on just because other people believe it and repeat it. If I have offended you then I retract the implication regarding Duggar truth and offer my apology.

I too ran in Catholic circles for a few years. I took RCIA (except whatever it is called more recently) and Gianna Molla was my patron saint. I admired her more for the fact that she was a pediatrician and working mother, although her choice with her last pregnancy and child meant something as well.

So I feel a personal stake with St Gianna, at the time she was only Blessed Gianna IIRC, and it gets under my skin when her story is mistold. She was not some dumb sheeple blindly following what some man told her was the right thing to do. She was an intelligent woman of strong faith, she was a doctor, she had studied to help poor women with childbirth but wasn't able to follow through on it. So she became a ped. She knew what was up.

Ok so I confess I made the Duggar remark fully knowing what I saying. Not my finest moment. I do sincerely apologize - I should have talked about the stuff in this post first.

I offer a flower of peace :happy-smileyflower:

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Toothfairy

I honestly wonder what if a QF had to make that choice to abort and live or no abort and her and her child both die. Or abort due to severe medical problems that prevents a child from living a normal fully functional life. Most QF are dirt poor.

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Cleopatra7

You strike me as an intelligent and capable person Cleopatra. I do not expect that you are going to let misleading information carry on just because other people believe it and repeat it. If I have offended you then I retract the implication regarding Duggar truth and offer my apology.

I too ran in Catholic circles for a few years. I took RCIA (except whatever it is called more recently) and Gianna Molla was my patron saint. I admired her more for the fact that she was a pediatrician and working mother, although her choice with her last pregnancy and child meant something as well.

So I feel a personal stake with St Gianna, at the time she was only Blessed Gianna IIRC, and it gets under my skin when her story is mistold. She was not some dumb sheeple blindly following what some man told her was the right thing to do. She was an intelligent woman of strong faith, she was a doctor, she had studied to help poor women with childbirth but wasn't able to follow through on it. So she became a ped. She knew what was up.

Ok so I confess I made the Duggar remark fully knowing what I saying. Not my finest moment. I do sincerely apologize - I should have talked about the stuff in this post first.

I offer a flower of peace :happy-smileyflower:

Thank you for your apology. I guess the real problem is not Gianna Molla herself (who as you say was quite sharp and cutting edge for becoming a doctor in an era when women didn't pursue that path), but how her story is used and misused by people today. The same can be said for Maria Goretti. After we die, there is no way of knowing how our lives and legacy will be used by others, and being dead, we can't set the story straight. :think:

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LadyAberlin

If Michelle died, I'm afraid that would be it for Jana and Jinger. Stay at home daughters for the next 15 years.

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TheDarkSideoftheMoonPie

I imagine they'd try and make it a political thing.

"She died in childbirth because The Lord needed a mother for all the aborted babies, to save them from the gays, lesbians and atheists."

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Sundaymorning

If women were dying en masse for the quiverfull cause like they were a hundred years ago (and still are in the developing world; 800 women die in childbirth every day), I doubt that quiverfull would be a thing because the recklessness of the ideology would be plain to see. Contrary to popular belief, it was never the norm to have families with 11+ live children borne by a single woman and large families have never been very popular. The Greeks and the Romans, for example, disliked large families because having too many male descendents often lead to disputes over got what when the father died (as a rule, daughters borne after the first one tended to be exposed because girls were considered a financial drain). There is nothing traditional about quiverfull ideology, since it is a clear reaction against feminism, the sexual revolution, religious pluralism, and other late twentieth century social trends.

I agree. If a tragedy would happen, I think they would use it to prove how much of a devoted Christian the mother was. And would try to shame anyone, who would point out the dangers of living the quiverfull lifestyle, as heartless and impious.

And then, well, it would be forgotten.

Such tragedies, fortunately, are quite rare nowdays. Also because even the most fanatic fundies (like ZsuZsu and PP) will actually go to a hospital to get the needed medical care from the obgyns (they otherwise like to hate on so much), if the pregnancy health issues get really dangerous. It leads to people not really being aware anymore how dangerous the quiverfull lifestyle truly is.

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Buffalo Gal

In the great Gothard tradition, she'd be a martyr for the cause if she died. She would have "served her lord faithfully" and been an "example of righteousness" for all other women. And then of course her reward is to be in the "arms of Jesus" and yada yada next baby factory please.

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LittleOleMe
I honestly wonder what if a QF had to make that choice to abort and live or no abort and her and her child both die. Or abort due to severe medical problems that prevents a child from living a normal fully functional life. Most QF are dirt poor.

For the sever medical problems part - I do know that they will just wait until the right time and then schedule a c-section (if necessary, which it generally is in those cases) so the baby is born alive and then dies a few minutes or hours later.

During the Jubilee fiasco, they played a song during the memorial that sounded pretty, so I looked it up and found out the back story to it. One of the members of the group Selah (yes, the name Jill had picked out for Izzy had he been a girl) wrote that song with his wife about their daughter. They found out early on in the pregnancy that whatever was wrong, she wouldn't survive. If she even made it to full term, it would be a miracle and even then she would need a c-section bc the baby would probably break apart in the birth canal. (or something equally as horrible sounding) They chose to schedule a c-section when she was around seven months pregnant and the child was born alive. She died a few hours later.

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nastyhobbitses

For the sever medical problems part - I do know that they will just wait until the right time and then schedule a c-section (if necessary, which it generally is in those cases) so the baby is born alive and then dies a few minutes or hours later.

During the Jubilee fiasco, they played a song during the memorial that sounded pretty, so I looked it up and found out the back story to it. One of the members of the group Selah (yes, the name Jill had picked out for Izzy had he been a girl) wrote that song with his wife about their daughter. They found out early on in the pregnancy that whatever was wrong, she wouldn't survive. If she even made it to full term, it would be a miracle and even then she would need a c-section bc the baby would probably break apart in the birth canal. (or something equally as horrible sounding) They chose to schedule a c-section when she was around seven months pregnant and the child was born alive. She died a few hours later.

I honestly don't know what to make of that. On the one hand, I suppose it gives them closure and the ability to be with their much-wanted daughter in a far less traumatic way than her...coming out in pieces, I guess, but on the other, it's a little ghoulish. I understand why they made their choice, and I respect that they likely did so to have some closure and be able to properly mourn a beloved baby, but were I in her shoes, I likely would have terminated and mourned then.

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LittleOleMe

I honestly don't know what to make of that. On the one hand, I suppose it gives them closure and the ability to be with their much-wanted daughter in a far less traumatic way than her...coming out in pieces, I guess, but on the other, it's a little ghoulish. I understand why they made their choice, and I respect that they likely did so to have some closure and be able to properly mourn a beloved baby, but were I in her shoes, I likely would have terminated and mourned then.

I read her "book" (and I use that term very loosely) and she's definitely off the deep end in some respects. She talks about how they went to arrange the funeral and pick out caskets and plots and stuff while she was pregnant and she kept making a point to tell everyone that she may not need them bc jesus might still heal her baby and everything would be fine. She did interviews with the 700 club, so I'm guessing her mindset on this matter is very similar to those in the Duggarville realm.

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