The Botkinettes????

[Cleopatra7]

Ok, maybe Petey didn't know everything. I still have no sympathy for him. Nope not an ounce. Deep down nobody in that cult really sees Lourdes as a victim. She most certainly is a victim.

As for what Petey could have done. Well, he could have stood his ground with Doug instead of acting like a coward and running away with is tail between his legs. This isn't about him! A woman was abused, and all he cares about is his own damn self. I have no sympathy for him or any of the men in that cult. Nope. Not an ounce.

The implosion of VF illustrates how hollow the claims are that the patriarchy movement makes "men" out of boys. None of the so-called "men" of VF came to Lourdes' aid when she needed it. Bradrick, who was raised entirely within this movement and theoretically should have been the "manliest" of them all, could only stand around impotent like Hamlet, unsure of what to do. The other so-called patriarchs fled the VF ship so as not to taint their own brands. It's one thing to dress up as Edwardian era gentleman and LARP about "women and children first" but something else to actually do it and put your own neck on the line to help someone, which none of them were willing to do. In the end, Lourdes ended being the "manliest" one of them all for standing up to Doug Phillips is a Tool and this entire rotten movement.

[PrairieGirl]

I don't think Phillips would have hinted to a junior member of his staff even if he'd thought of Lourdes as mistress rather than as target. The inestimable costumed genius, Doug Phillips - a cheater?!

Bradrick believed enough in the concept of church discipline to publicly call Phillips out while other members of the same circle were trying to discourage "gossip" on their blogs by condemning anyone who questioned Phillips' integrity. I remember their being a lot of blog chatter among the fundies when VF began to collapse: They were using Bible verses such as "Let he who has not sinned..." to excuse Phillips and to bludgeon his Christian critics.

Phillips' senior advisers and staff refused to criticize him at the same time as Bradrick was publicly writing about Phillips' reaction to the confrontation.

He knew that by openly writing about it he'd likely lose a great many contacts, some of whom were providing him with money. He had every reason to say nothing at all.

I'm not even convinced the Botkins knew: They featured Lourdes as one among only five (?) girls and women in their "Return of the Daughters" propaganda vehicle. If they had seen her in any way as "damaged goods," they wouldn't have risked their investment in that project by including her - or, assuming they found out after the initial taping, they could have cut her segments during later production.

If they had discovered this at some point after their film had aired, but before Phillips had made private admission to his board concerning what he no doubt described as a mutual affair, they'd have already started with damage control. Instead, it, if I recall correctly, began with Phillips' own public announcement that the film started disappearing from second-hand sales venues.

Now "Return of the Daughters" is hard to find, and I suspect this is in part because the Botkins took a real hit with it and started spending of their own money to buy copies.

Phillips embarrassed his entire movement. That, I suspect, is why so many of his most senior contacts ran as cockroaches from light - especially after Lourdes filed a suit that pretty much showed Doug's claim his "inappropriate behaviour" with a woman had been other than mutual.

I'm sure some people knew something wrong was happening, and some even guessed it had to do with Phillips' nanny, but this wasn't some one night stand Phillips could shrug off as a mistake; this was Phillips sexually harassing a young female employee whose entire family had their livelihoods invested with VF.

There's no way I'm saying Bradrick's experience is anywhere near as painful as Lourdes' had been. I'm saying instead that I believe Bradrick didn't know - not until he was standing in front of Phillips and hearing his mentor speak in ways Bradrick had never heard before, expressing contempt for Bradrick and for the concept of church discipline (which Phillips had promoted until it aimed at him).

I saw photos of the two: I think Bradrick saw Phillips as a friend, and Phillips saw Bradrick as cheap labour. The thanks Bradrick ended up receiving for his work with VF was a "do you know who I am?"-style verbal beat-down by the man who taught him about faith and family...and humility.

I accept the idea senior staff at VF were crooked, but they weren't stupid. And I have a hard time believing anything about the real Doug Phillips made it to his junior staff.

Well said.

[Marian the Librarian]

I don't think Phillips would have hinted to a junior member of his staff even if he'd thought of Lourdes as mistress rather than as target. The inestimable costumed genius, Doug Phillips - a cheater?!

Bradrick believed enough in the concept of church discipline to publicly call Phillips out while other members of the same circle were trying to discourage "gossip" on their blogs by condemning anyone who questioned Phillips' integrity. I remember their being a lot of blog chatter among the fundies when VF began to collapse: They were using Bible verses such as "Let he who has not sinned..." to excuse Phillips and to bludgeon his Christian critics.

Phillips' senior advisers and staff refused to criticize him at the same time as Bradrick was publicly writing about Phillips' reaction to the confrontation.

He knew that by openly writing about it he'd likely lose a great many contacts, some of whom were providing him with money. He had every reason to say nothing at all.

I'm not even convinced the Botkins knew: They featured Lourdes as one among only five (?) girls and women in their "Return of the Daughters" propaganda vehicle. If they had seen her in any way as "damaged goods," they wouldn't have risked their investment in that project by including her - or, assuming they found out after the initial taping, they could have cut her segments during later production.

If they had discovered this at some point after their film had aired, but before Phillips had made private admission to his board concerning what he no doubt described as a mutual affair, they'd have already started with damage control. Instead, it, if I recall correctly, began with Phillips' own public announcement that the film started disappearing from second-hand sales venues.

Now "Return of the Daughters" is hard to find, and I suspect this is in part because the Botkins took a real hit with it and started spending of their own money to buy copies.

Phillips embarrassed his entire movement. That, I suspect, is why so many of his most senior contacts ran as cockroaches from light - especially after Lourdes filed a suit that pretty much showed Doug's claim his "inappropriate behaviour" with a woman had been other than mutual.

I'm sure some people knew something wrong was happening, and some even guessed it had to do with Phillips' nanny, but this wasn't some one night stand Phillips could shrug off as a mistake; this was Phillips sexually harassing a young female employee whose entire family had their livelihoods invested with VF.

There's no way I'm saying Bradrick's experience is anywhere near as painful as Lourdes' had been. I'm saying instead that I believe Bradrick didn't know - not until he was standing in front of Phillips and hearing his mentor speak in ways Bradrick had never heard before, expressing contempt for Bradrick and for the concept of church discipline (which Phillips had promoted until it aimed at him).

I saw photos of the two: I think Bradrick saw Phillips as a friend, and Phillips saw Bradrick as cheap labour. The thanks Bradrick ended up receiving for his work with VF was a "do you know who I am?"-style verbal beat-down by the man who taught him about faith and family...and humility.

I accept the idea senior staff at VF were crooked, but they weren't stupid. And I have a hard time believing anything about the real Doug Phillips made it to his junior staff.

:clap:

[Howl]

I was recalling a video made for DPIAT by Brarick! and Kelly in a hospital just after she had given birth to her first child. The tone was extremely respectful. Kelly referred to DIPIAT as Mr. Phillips. Based on this, I suspect Bradrick!'s relationship w/ DPIAT was professional and respectful (worshipful?) and definitely not peer based.

We all know about womanly meekness and submission in patriarchy, but I wonder if in patriarchy, young men are required to be extremely deferential and respectful to older men, you know, the Patriarchs(!).

[DomWackTroll]

It was really hard for me to admit that Peter's reaction to Doug's "outing" immediately struck me as sincere. I despised Peter. Loathed him. Especially after he dragged his sickly, neo-natal wife all over Europe and put her in a near-death situation to display her "Puritan sturdiness." I allowed my disgust for this event (and several other callous and/or egotistical acts) to convince me that Peter was some kind of scheming, manipulative Al Haig type, ready to jump right in when Doug was indisposed and declare, "I'm in charge here!"

But I was wrong about Peter being an alpha male. Doug's outing revealed him to be a beta who could barely function on a day-to-day level when his Dear Leader fell, much less attempt to take over the rudderless empire. His level of sophistication is so low as to barely register, as opposed to, say, Perry Coghlan, who knows plenty about "the World."

And Geoff Botkin and Voddie Baucham? Oh, hell yeah-- they knew. Like a few other posters said, just look at their timelines. Look at their event schedules. Look at their geographical locations. We may not have hard evidence, but the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming.

[salex]

I was recalling a video made for DPIAT by Brarick! and Kelly in a hospital just after she had given birth to her first child. The tone was extremely respectful. Kelly referred to DIPIAT as Mr. Phillips. Based on this, I suspect Bradrick!'s relationship w/ DPIAT was professional and respectful (worshipful?) and definitely not peer based.

We all know about womanly meekness and submission in patriarchy, but I wonder if in patriarchy, young men are required to be extremely deferential and respectful to older men, you know, the Patriarchs(!).

This guy (one of the Reconstructionist Theonomists on Nattie's group's page-- the one who things girls should marry before 18 and boys by 20) believes one answers to one's father until his death.

truelovedoesntwait.com/authority-of-the-father-historical-commentaries/

There are many Christians today who believe that the authority of the father over his children ends at some point in their lives, either at some age of maturity (called “adulthoodâ€) or when they move out of the house or when they marry. Proponents of this notion tend center their argumentation around Genesis 2:24. In fact, that is where the entire line of reasoning begins and ends. There are no other Biblical passages that support this modern belief that the father’s authority ends at some point in the child’s life.

And this belief is used grant “freedom†to children to do whatever they want at a certain point in their life. It is use to “cut off†children (a kind of disinheritance) at a certain point as well, even though we see such accounts as the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32) where it is presented as normative for grown sons to have a common economy with their father as long as he lives. Most Christians are surprised to learn of such accounts in Scripture as Benjamin bar Jacob who was under the authority of his father (Genesis 42:4,38; 43:13-14), though he had ten sons of his own (Genesis 46:21), or the account of the Rechabites in Jeremiah 35, where God praised the entire “house†for obeying their patriarch many generations after he had given them several particular (and pretty unreasonable, actually) commands.

Based on actions, it seems that Steve Maxwell and Ken Alexander both follow along with this particular model to a point. And I see on my Fakebook and possibly here from Ken that they talk about being under authority of their pastors. (Which is why I think the whole "home church" thing is so popular with the arrogant asshole society Patriarchs we follow here. They don't want any authority over them in a church)

So, the interns would be working for Dougie the Toolie with their father's permission, and Doug would be surrogate father, spiritual leader and employer... all of whom they are supposed to respect and obey..Anyone else suspect hazing was part of the deal?

[formergothardite]

Gothard also teaches that men should stay under the authority of their father until the father dies. Which is really strange when you consider how many ATI fathers had parents who did not approve of having a billion kids and joining a cult.

[refugee]

I was recalling a video made for DPIAT by Brarick! and Kelly in a hospital just after she had given birth to her first child. The tone was extremely respectful. Kelly referred to DIPIAT as Mr. Phillips. Based on this, I suspect Bradrick!'s relationship w/ DPIAT was professional and respectful (worshipful?) and definitely not peer based.

We all know about womanly meekness and submission in patriarchy, but I wonder if in patriarchy, young men are required to be extremely deferential and respectful to older men, you know, the Patriarchs(!).

Not just that, but if a young man marries a patriarch's daughter, guess who's head of that family?

[hoipolloi]

The implosion of VF illustrates how hollow the claims are that the patriarchy movement makes "men" out of boys. None of the so-called "men" of VF came to Lourdes' aid when she needed it. Bradrick, who was raised entirely within this movement and theoretically should have been the "manliest" of them all, could only stand around impotent like Hamlet, unsure of what to do. The other so-called patriarchs fled the VF ship so as not to taint their own brands. It's one thing to dress up as Edwardian era gentleman and LARP about "women and children first" but something else to actually do it and put your own neck on the line to help someone, which none of them were willing to do. In the end, Lourdes ended being the "manliest" one of them all for standing up to Doug Phillips is a Tool and this entire rotten movement.

Re: bolded. Thank you. You've articulated well what I was trying to say by lumping Peter Bradrick and other interns with the "men" in this movement.

I strongly suspect that up until the implosion & the disastrous confrontation with Doug Phillips, Peter Bradrick still didn't see anything really wrong with it all. Hell, his own father-in-law was (and is) running a cloned VF in the NCFIC which, of course, was originally a spin-off franchise of VF. Peter spent years working for and with these people, doing their bidding, and apparently saw nothing wrong with any of it till late 2013.

Yes, Bradrick! deserves credit for moving out of and away from these cults AND for actually getting a real job (not working for daddy, daddy-in-law or daddy's friends) but why did it take so long?

[Cleopatra7]

Re: bolded. Thank you. You've articulated well what I was trying to say by lumping Peter Bradrick and other interns with the "men" in this movement.

I strongly suspect that up until the implosion & the disastrous confrontation with Doug Phillips, Peter Bradrick still didn't see anything really wrong with it all. Hell, his own father-in-law was (and is) running a cloned VF in the NCFIC which, of course, was originally a spin-off franchise of VF. Peter spent years working for and with these people, doing their bidding, and apparently saw nothing wrong with any of it till late 2013.

Yes, Bradrick! deserves credit for moving out of and away from these cults AND for actually getting a real job (not working for daddy, daddy-in-law or daddy's friends) but why did it take so long?

As other posters have mentioned, there can only be one patriarch within each family unit. In ancient Rome, for example, a household consisted of a single pater familias and his wife, slaves, sons and their families were all subordinate to his wishes. The pater familias could even kill a member of his household and not be punished for it, because that was his right as head of the family. He could also have sexual access to any "lesser" member of the family, whether free or slave. Taking sexual advantage of a young woman working in home of a "patriarch" is a feature not a bug of the system. So is the pater familias brow beating his sons into submission. You can see the same dynamics at work with the patriarchs in the Bible as well. Biblical patriarchy is about creating followers, not leaders.

[CloakNDagger]

I think you guys seriously underestimate how good Doug seems to have been at "compartmentalizing" things. I know where I was at certain times and there was no way I would have figured out what was going on elsewhere. A lot of interns and others had "important" assignments. For instance, very often a couple of guys would be detailed to shuttle people back and forth to the airport, others might be in charge of audio stuff, and other similar tasks. DPIAT always got a tremendous amount of stuff done with a small staff and eager volunteers.

As far as "manly" men / patriarchs failing when this stuff went down, yeah... it was only people who were no longer in town who seemed to be really willing to call the emperor on his lack of clothes. The three former interns, two of them assistants, the other men who confronted Doug, and a handful of their friends are the only ones I know of who were really took it seriously enough to say anything publicly.

The Botkins may have seen some of this coming, but I genuinely believe the move was more because of their father's health, which was visibly down in Texas. A bunch of other people had also moved to Tennessee from the movement at the time and they had gone to visit and it seemed his health was better there. I have heard from a friend that they fully disclosed the situation with Doug to the church there in Tennessee, which is more than seems could be said about elsewhere from what I hear.

[Burris]

Ok, maybe Petey didn't know everything. I still have no sympathy for him. Nope not an ounce. Deep down nobody in that cult really sees Lourdes as a victim. She most certainly is a victim.

Your sympathy is yours to do with as you wish. I'm curious as to how you know what Bradrick, for example, thinks of Lourdes.

The key word here is "cult." Peter Bradrick was raised in a cult that dealt in everything from political ideology to questions about death. He worked for the cult, married for the cult, reproduced for the cult, traveled for the cult, shilled for the cult. Lived for the cult.

He believed the ideology was true, that the conclusions were trustworthy, and that his mentor had integrity. But the ideology is false, the conclusions drawn from it are incorrect, and his mentor is a sleaze.

He found out everything he believed was wrong - that his actions based on thos beliefs, some of which were irreversible (such as producing a child with someone he may not have otherwise married but for their involvement in VF), may have been just as disastrous for the people around him as the cult itself had been.

Voddie Boucham? Self-important bloviating ass that he is, ran as a frightened child would and started scrambling for other income streams. Seriously; Voddie - Mr. Fucking Integrity if one were to believe his assessment of himself...why didn't he post something similar to what Bradrick did? Instead, they hit the road; he sent his daughter out to breed so he could be paterfamilias to his own new cult.

And where's Joe Morecroft? The rest of them that joined this nonsense in adulthood and should have had more perspective than Peter Bradrick?

They all grabbed their money and ran, and it was the "beta male" who was sucker-punched by his leader that called bullshit on the situation.

As for what Petey could have done. Well, he could have stood his ground with Doug instead of acting like a coward and running away with is tail between his legs.

I honestly don't understand what you expected Bradrick to do in that situation. He didn't have any legal position in the matter. The only position he had was as junior staff - so he acted within the limited sphere of his influence and actually approached Doug Phillips.

What was Bradrick supposed to do when Phillips blew him off, break his nose? (I'm serious. If you were in his position, what do you think you'd have done.)

There's no indication of how he viewed Lourdes then or of how he views her now.

This isn't about him! A woman was abused, and all he cares about is his own damn self. I have no sympathy for him or any of the men in that cult. Nope. Not an ounce.

I think the least...tasteful...thing Bradrick could have done in this situation would be to try and speak on behalf of the victim or say anything about her experience at all.

Sure Lourdes would have appreciated signing on-line one day only to find a post about how Bradrick sympathized with her.

Or maybe he could have tried to contact her personally:

"Dear Lourdes:

This is Peter Bradrick. I'm sure you remember me; I used to lick shit off your tormentor's boots. Sorry I was such a tool. I hope you can forgive me. Oh, and by the way, I've posted in sympathy to your plight, although I myself have never been abused that way and was actually part of the group that created and enforced the conditions you endured.

Sorry again. Hope we can have coffee sometime!

Pete."

[Marian the Librarian]

I think you guys seriously underestimate how good Doug seems to have been at "compartmentalizing" things. I know where I was at certain times and there was no way I would have figured out what was going on elsewhere. A lot of interns and others had "important" assignments. For instance, very often a couple of guys would be detailed to shuttle people back and forth to the airport, others might be in charge of audio stuff, and other similar tasks. DPIAT always got a tremendous amount of stuff done with a small staff and eager volunteers.

As far as "manly" men / patriarchs failing when this stuff went down, yeah... it was only people who were no longer in town who seemed to be really willing to call the emperor on his lack of clothes. The three former interns, two of them assistants, the other men who confronted Doug, and a handful of their friends are the only ones I know of who were really took it seriously enough to say anything publicly.

The Botkins may have seen some of this coming, but I genuinely believe the move was more because of their father's health, which was visibly down in Texas. A bunch of other people had also moved to Tennessee from the movement at the time and they had gone to visit and it seemed his health was better there. I have heard from a friend that they fully disclosed the situation with Doug to the church there in Tennessee, which is more than seems could be said about elsewhere from what I hear.

This does make sense - there is certainly a large enclave of Dominionist types in middle Tennessee these days. Thanks for the input.

[PrairieGirl]

Your sympathy is yours to do with as you wish. I'm curious as to how you know what Bradrick, for example, thinks of Lourdes.

The key word here is "cult." Peter Bradrick was raised in a cult that dealt in everything from political ideology to questions about death. He worked for the cult, married for the cult, reproduced for the cult, traveled for the cult, shilled for the cult. Lived for the cult.

He believed the ideology was true, that the conclusions were trustworthy, and that his mentor had integrity. But the ideology is false, the conclusions drawn from it are incorrect, and his mentor is a sleaze.

He found out everything he believed was wrong - that his actions based on thos beliefs, some of which were irreversible (such as producing a child with someone he may not have otherwise married but for their involvement in VF), may have been just as disastrous for the people around him as the cult itself had been.

Voddie Boucham? Self-important bloviating ass that he is, ran as a frightened child would and started scrambling for other income streams. Seriously; Voddie - Mr. Fucking Integrity if one were to believe his assessment of himself...why didn't he post something similar to what Bradrick did? Instead, they hit the road; he sent his daughter out to breed so he could be paterfamilias to his own new cult.

And where's Joe Morecroft? The rest of them that joined this nonsense in adulthood and should have had more perspective than Peter Bradrick?

They all grabbed their money and ran, and it was the "beta male" who was sucker-punched by his leader that called bullshit on the situation.

I honestly don't understand what you expected Bradrick to do in that situation. He didn't have any legal position in the matter. The only position he had was as junior staff - so he acted within the limited sphere of his influence and actually approached Doug Phillips.

What was Bradrick supposed to do when Phillips blew him off, break his nose? (I'm serious. If you were in his position, what do you think you'd have done.)

There's no indication of how he viewed Lourdes then or of how he views her now.

I think the least...tasteful...thing Bradrick could have done in this situation would be to try and speak on behalf of the victim or say anything about her experience at all.

Sure Lourdes would have appreciated signing on-line one day only to find a post about how Bradrick sympathized with her.

Or maybe he could have tried to contact her personally:

"Dear Lourdes:

This is Peter Bradrick. I'm sure you remember me; I used to lick shit off your tormentor's boots. Sorry I was such a tool. I hope you can forgive me. Oh, and by the way, I've posted in sympathy to your plight, although I myself have never been abused that way and was actually part of the group that created and enforced the conditions you endured.

Sorry again. Hope we can have coffee sometime!

Pete."

Burris, you are saying everything that I am feeling but so much more eloquently than I could have put it.

[VodouDoll]

I think that's Burris's MO. I feel the same way.

[Et Moi]

I'm inclined to think that none of those other leaders knew what Doug was up to. There's so much movement infighting that if one of them had known in advance they would have orchestrated things to bring him down while coming out in charge of Vision Forum in the process. Everyone acted like they were taken by surprise and were reacting instead of acting.

And as for Bradrick, he idolized the man, and in return Doug called him his bosom friend. When you're that close to the situation and think that this person you adore is the model for godly manhood it's not so surprising that he'd miss what we under his nose. What Doug did to Lourdes was unthinkable to someone like Peter.