The Botkinettes????

[gustava]

Was the date stamp on the no-cry sermon any time after Tool O'ween? Not that that would excuse its despicable theories but it would certainly be interesting timing.

Guess it's time for me to take the bullet and report on the CDs of "She Shall Be Called Woman," featuring that helpmeet o'helpmeets, the Sarai to her Abram, she-who-must-be-insane-by-now, Victoria (Vicky) Botkin!!! There are 6 CDs IIRC and I only got partway into the second one and also IIRC no dire pronouncements on victims of assault.

However there are plenty of snide jabs at the "others." This stuff should be documented!, since as they say, if we ignore history it will repeat itself upon us.

Sending you

[Marian the Librarian]

Was the date stamp on the no-cry sermon any time after Tool O'ween? Not that that would excuse its despicable theories but it would certainly be interesting timing.

Guess it's time for me to take the bullet and report on the CDs of "She Shall Be Called Woman," featuring that helpmeet o'helpmeets, the Sarai to her Abram, she-who-must-be-insane-by-now, Victoria (Vicky) Botkin!!! There are 6 CDs IIRC and I only got partway into the second one and also IIRC no dire pronouncements on victims of assault.

However there are plenty of snide jabs at the "others." This stuff should be documented!, since as they say, if we ignore history it will repeat itself upon us.

Date on the sermon in question was Sept. 29, 2013, one month before Tool o' Ween. One wonders - what did Geoff know, and when did he know it?

[PrairieGirl]

Date on the sermon in question was Sept. 29, 2013, one month before Tool o' Ween. One wonders - what did Geoff know, and when did he know it?

I have often wondered this whenever we speak of Tool-O-Ween. I know that when the story about DPIAT/R first broke, there was much speculation that his victim was possibly a Botkinette. But like Scotty, I think Geoff must have known something. Though unlike Scotty, I always got the sense that there was far more competition between Tool and Geoff than Tool and Scotty. Probably because Geoff and Tool both had such overinflated egos, they put the Goodyear blimp to shame.

[GotCaughtDancing]

This family is actually creepier than many of the other fundie's. Well to me anyway. There is just something really off about them. Maybe I just need coffee? :lol:

[gustava]

This family is actually creepier than many of the other fundie's. Well to me anyway. There is just something really off about them. Maybe I just need coffee? :lol:

Coffee isn't strong enough for Botkinitis

[hoipolloi]

Date on the sermon in question was Sept. 29, 2013, one month before Tool o' Ween. One wonders - what did Geoff know, and when did he know it?

Re: bolded. I'd bet they ALL knew there was shit going on, and they probably knew it for YEARS.

All = Voddie Baucham, Geoff Botkin, Scott Brown, Joe Morecraft, Kevin Swanson, and especially the interns, including Bradrick! & Natty Darnell as well as Doug Phillips' sidekicks at his "church" -- Don Hart & Michael Gobart. [Full names included for the benefit of our ever-present bots.]

These "men" all spent a LOT of time at each other's bogus conferences making money off each other's and VF's various schemes to fleece the sheeple. They knew. Their cowardly silence speaks more loudly for them than any of their "Christian" messages.

[GotCaughtDancing]

Coffee isn't strong enough for Botkinitis

You are 100% correct! :lol:

[starfish]

Some of the Botkin brothers have married and even reproduced. I wouldn't exactly say that there were working since I have no idea what they do for money.

But the Botkinettes are just stuck hanging out at the manor

[gustava]

Re: bolded. I'd bet they ALL knew there was shit going on, and they probably knew it for YEARS.

All = Voddie Baucham, Geoff Botkin, Scott Brown, Joe Morecraft, Kevin Swanson, and especially the interns, including Bradrick! & Natty Darnell as well as Doug Phillips' sidekicks at his "church" -- Don Hart & Michael Gobart. [Full names included for the benefit of our ever-present bots.]

These "men" all spent a LOT of time at each other's bogus conferences making money off each other's and VF's various schemes to fleece the sheeple. They knew. Their cowardly silence speaks more loudly for them than any of their "Christian" messages.

I don't think the men really "knew" although they might have suspected. I'm guessing each one wants plausible deniability, so there may have been winks and nods and pats on the back, but never any words.

[Burris]

All = Voddie Baucham, Geoff Botkin, Scott Brown, Joe Morecraft, Kevin Swanson, and especially the interns, including Bradrick! & Natty Darnell as well as Doug Phillips' sidekicks at his "church" -- Don Hart & Michael Gobart. [Full names included for the benefit of our ever-present bots.]

I don't know that I entirely agree - especially about the interns. Bradrick strikes me as a tool of sorts, and he had this kind of mentor relationship with Doug Phillips, but he seemed genuinely shocked by Phillips' reaction to questions and criticism when news of Dougie's alleged sexual exploits broke.

I don't recall the post, sorry, but it read as if he'd been cracked across the jaw. It wasn't the reaction I'd expect from someone who knew what was going on, but rather from someone who believed in Phillips and his message only to find, in one of the harsher ways available, that both were false.

That's not an easy thing to discover - or to admit.

[Arete]

I second the assertion that Geoff knew what was going on with DPIAR/T. He is first and foremost an extremely shrewd survivor. He has been slithering in and out of cults since his 20s. He and Victoria met in a cult. The cults fizzle or implode and he always goes on to reinvent himself and tap new revenue streams in a new organization. Now that Vision Forum is finished, he has taken Western Conservatory out of mothballs and is trying to build up those revenue streams. He is ground zero of the Daddy Worship Movement. All the ideas that Steve Maxwell currently shills were initially developed by Daddy Botkin. Pure, unadulterated idolatry focused exclusively on the family patriarch. God is an afterthought in Botkin's system. The Botkinettes will never settle for some middle earning pastor after a lifetime of conditioning to view their father as a literal deity in their lives.

[VodouDoll]

I agree that Bradrick! had no idea what Doug was up to. When it all came out and Doug told B! to fuck off and that he had no intention of submitting to church discipline, it definitely read to me like Peter's whole life fell apart in that moment. He was devistated.

[Marian the Librarian]

I second the assertion that Geoff knew what was going on with DPIAR/T. He is first and foremost an extremely shrewd survivor. He has been slithering in and out of cults since his 20s. He and Victoria met in a cult. The cults fizzle or implode and he always goes on to reinvent himself and tap new revenue streams in a new organization. Now that Vision Forum is finished, he has taken Western Conservatory out of mothballs and is trying to build up those revenue streams. He is ground zero of the Daddy Worship Movement. All the ideas that Steve Maxwell currently shills were initially developed by Daddy Botkin. Pure, unadulterated idolatry focused exclusively on the family patriarch. God is an afterthought in Botkin's system. The Botkinettes will never settle for some middle earning pastor after a lifetime of conditioning to view their father as a literal deity in their lives.

[happy atheist]

Where could one find information on them? I would love to go down that rabbit hole!

The Botkin and Botkinette subforum with all of the archived FJ discussions is here: viewforum.php?f=108

[RosyDaisy]

All of these creepy ass men knew what was going on, and probably have skeletons of their own, especially those like Geoff and Voddie who left well before Tool'oween.

[nokidsmom]

I don't know that I entirely agree - especially about the interns. Bradrick strikes me as a tool of sorts, and he had this kind of mentor relationship with Doug Phillips, but he seemed genuinely shocked by Phillips' reaction to questions and criticism when news of Dougie's alleged sexual exploits broke.

I don't recall the post, sorry, but it read as if he'd been cracked across the jaw. It wasn't the reaction I'd expect from someone who knew what was going on, but rather from someone who believed in Phillips and his message only to find, in one of the harsher ways available, that both were false.

That's not an easy thing to discover - or to admit.

Agree that I am not too sure that Bradrick! fully realized what was going on. He seemed genuinely shocked at DPIAT's reaction when he confronted him. I suspect that Bradrick!, in his worship of his mentor and complete belief that he was a great guy, may have overlooked things that otherwise should have come up as red flags and didn't realize it all until later, meaning after the confrontation.

For now, I am giving him the benefit of the doubt but it's entirely possible as this case progresses, we will learn more later.

[RosyDaisy]

Well, boo fucking boo to Petey! He is guilty by association. When he found out, he should have acted on that information. What he's going through is nothing compared to what true victims like Lourdes have gone through. That selfish, fundie SOB needs to think on that instead of wallowing in pity and disillusionment!

[Burris]

For now, I am giving him the benefit of the doubt but it's entirely possible as this case progresses, we will learn more later.

I'm pretty much willing to believe, based on his public reaction, that he didn't see this one coming. There may have been signs he missed - signs he is now looking back on and wondering about - but he's the only one of that circle I can remember who publicly denounced Phillips' behaviour when the scandal came to light.

It's the Bell Curve of being mentally nuked by a trusted source:

1) I trust this source so I'm acting on its information (1b) even though I know on some level that at least a portion of my actions would be morally wrong regardless of the circumstances.

2) WHACK!

3) ...the fuck was that?

4) Didn't see that. Did. Not. See. That.

5) WHACK!

6) What the fuck was THAT?

7) I fucking know I saw THAT - (7b) and all those other things - (7c) but it totally can't be that the source whom I've trusted would...uh....could it?

8) [Checks sources for the first time ever.]

9) Oh, it...totally could. (9b) Not convinced; I have to actually talk to other people. (9c) They saw it and they don't care.

10) OH SHIT! OH SHIT! OH FUCKING SHIT!

11) Bradrick says, "I publicly declare I saw X."

12) "...and some people are pissed because I told their dirty secret, while others are pissed because I was a part of it."

13) "What...am I, even, without the beliefs I've acted on? What do I believe? What do I DO? How do I pay that?"

I actually feel bad for Bradrick. I believe Phillips seriously messed him up.

[Burris]

Well, boo fucking boo to Petey! He is guilty by association. When he found out, he should have acted on that information. What he's going through is nothing compared to what true victims like Lourdes have gone through. That selfish, fundie SOB needs to think on that instead of wallowing in pity and disillusionment!

Besides publicly outing Doug as an asshole, which Bradrick actually did, what should he have done? Unless he actually saw Phillips assault Lourdes, or heard him admit to it, what can he do legally?

[VodouDoll]

Well, boo fucking boo to Petey! He is guilty by association. When he found out, he should have acted on that information. What he's going through is nothing compared to what true victims like Lourdes have gone through. That selfish, fundie SOB needs to think on that instead of wallowing in pity and disillusionment!

I truly don't think anyone is saying Peter's hurt even approaches Lourdes's. Just that many of us don't think Peter knew Doug was assaulting her and turned a blind eye.

[RosyDaisy]

Not buying the "I didn't know" bullshit. Now that I think about it, given that cult's belief system, I doubt he thinks Lourdes was a victim, just DPIATR's mistress.

[Burris]

Not buying the "I didn't know" bullshit. Now that I think about it, given that cult's belief system, I doubt he thinks Lourdes was a victim, just DPIATR's mistress.

I don't think Phillips would have hinted to a junior member of his staff even if he'd thought of Lourdes as mistress rather than as target. The inestimable costumed genius, Doug Phillips - a cheater?!

Bradrick believed enough in the concept of church discipline to publicly call Phillips out while other members of the same circle were trying to discourage "gossip" on their blogs by condemning anyone who questioned Phillips' integrity. I remember their being a lot of blog chatter among the fundies when VF began to collapse: They were using Bible verses such as "Let he who has not sinned..." to excuse Phillips and to bludgeon his Christian critics.

Phillips' senior advisers and staff refused to criticize him at the same time as Bradrick was publicly writing about Phillips' reaction to the confrontation.

He knew that by openly writing about it he'd likely lose a great many contacts, some of whom were providing him with money. He had every reason to say nothing at all.

I'm not even convinced the Botkins knew: They featured Lourdes as one among only five (?) girls and women in their "Return of the Daughters" propaganda vehicle. If they had seen her in any way as "damaged goods," they wouldn't have risked their investment in that project by including her - or, assuming they found out after the initial taping, they could have cut her segments during later production.

If they had discovered this at some point after their film had aired, but before Phillips had made private admission to his board concerning what he no doubt described as a mutual affair, they'd have already started with damage control. Instead, it, if I recall correctly, began with Phillips' own public announcement that the film started disappearing from second-hand sales venues.

Now "Return of the Daughters" is hard to find, and I suspect this is in part because the Botkins took a real hit with it and started spending of their own money to buy copies.

Phillips embarrassed his entire movement. That, I suspect, is why so many of his most senior contacts ran as cockroaches from light - especially after Lourdes filed a suit that pretty much showed Doug's claim his "inappropriate behaviour" with a woman had been other than mutual.

I'm sure some people knew something wrong was happening, and some even guessed it had to do with Phillips' nanny, but this wasn't some one night stand Phillips could shrug off as a mistake; this was Phillips sexually harassing a young female employee whose entire family had their livelihoods invested with VF.

There's no way I'm saying Bradrick's experience is anywhere near as painful as Lourdes' had been. I'm saying instead that I believe Bradrick didn't know - not until he was standing in front of Phillips and hearing his mentor speak in ways Bradrick had never heard before, expressing contempt for Bradrick and for the concept of church discipline (which Phillips had promoted until it aimed at him).

I saw photos of the two: I think Bradrick saw Phillips as a friend, and Phillips saw Bradrick as cheap labour. The thanks Bradrick ended up receiving for his work with VF was a "do you know who I am?"-style verbal beat-down by the man who taught him about faith and family...and humility.

I accept the idea senior staff at VF were crooked, but they weren't stupid. And I have a hard time believing anything about the real Doug Phillips made it to his junior staff.

[RosyDaisy]

Ok, maybe Petey didn't know everything. I still have no sympathy for him. Nope not an ounce. Deep down nobody in that cult really sees Lourdes as a victim. She most certainly is a victim.

As for what Petey could have done. Well, he could have stood his ground with Doug instead of acting like a coward and running away with is tail between his legs. This isn't about him! A woman was abused, and all he cares about is his own damn self. I have no sympathy for him or any of the men in that cult. Nope. Not an ounce.

[salex]

I have always wondered what Doug has on all his interns and some of his peers that they might feel threatened about. Isn't it standard cult methodology to gather confessions of their deepest sins? Recording them and letting them know later that these recordings exist might keep some people quiet and sweating.

And, we were all shocked that Doug the tool was caught with a woman. Why would we believe he never did anything untoward with a male intern. Given that both supporters and detractors thing Lourdes was equally "guilty" as Doug, wouldn't they think the same thing of any male victim Doug might have had-- which is even worse in their circles?

Not defending anyone here, but I am amazed more names were not added to the lawsuit, and I suspect it is less because there are no other victims and more because a lot of people and their families decided the running the gauntlet of social and church judgement against the victim isn't worth the pain.

[RosyDaisy]

I have no doubt Lourdes wasn't the only one Doug abused. This also begs the question, was Doug the only man who was an abuser? Most likely not. Hopefully Lourdes' story will help other victims come forward.