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Blame vs. sympathy for Duggar kids


Lemchop

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Make no mistake: All of the kids are victims, and always will be. However, when you become an adult, you are also responsible for your own actions and the consequences they bring. That's where Jessa and Josh are with the hate they spew.

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I have a hard copy of OK Magazine and couldn't find this snippet on their website but a few weeks ago they published an article about the Kardashian's $100 million deal. This is also on E and not TLC but I imagine this is pretty standard stuff for reality shows.

Kris brokered the deal, now we all know how often these rags get the story wrong and so take this with some huge grains of salt, but everything I've seen says Kris made the decisions about who got what... Kim got 30 mill, Khloe 8 mill, Kourtney 7 mill, Kylie and Kendall got 2 mill, some amt to support staff, nothing for Bruce. Didn't even mention Rob.

Point being... even for the Kardashians, who are far more popular and probably far outstrip the Duggar earnings, Kris brokered the deal, there were not separate negotiations or contracts or payments. If anyone in reality TV world has the fame and power to demand things her own way, it would be Kim Kardashian for sure.

I feel certain that JB likewise negotiates for the Duggars, and he is the one who makes the money splits. I imagine it all has to do with camera time, maybe that is why JD keeps popping up, trying to make some dough to support his volunteer police work habits. Hopefully the minors have money saved for them but who knows.

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If it's not JB's show, then why do you feel the way you do about contracts? ;)

Anyway, I agree. A rift like that, with any of the currently married kids being kicked out of the clan, would spell the end for 19 KAC. I don't think that viewers would stand for it, and I don't think that the Duggar's reputation would recover. However, it would still be very bad for any kids who don't toe the line. The consequences - losing the TLC money, losing their homes - would be the same for them.

In the begging I think JB used the kids to support the family and to continue his mission of populating for Gothard. The show is more about the kids than JB, as without the kids there would be no show, but I do believe that JB is the conduit to TLC. I think he negotiates (and has negotiated) a family contract since the beginning. I don't know if the kids over 18 get paid separately or if the money passes through JB's hands as part of that contract. I would think that if they were all getting paid separately, that at least one of the 8, adult kids would have made a different choice by now- more so, one of the 5, single adults-

I can't help wondering if Josiah IS that kid.

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I have a hard copy of OK Magazine and couldn't find this snippet on their website but a few weeks ago they published an article about the Kardashian's $100 million deal. This is also on E and not TLC but I imagine this is pretty standard stuff for reality shows.

Kris brokered the deal, now we all know how often these rags get the story wrong and so take this with some huge grains of salt, but everything I've seen says Kris made the decisions about who got what... Kim got 30 mill, Khloe 8 mill, Kourtney 7 mill, Kylie and Kendall got 2 mill, some amt to support staff, nothing for Bruce. Didn't even mention Rob.

Point being... even for the Kardashians, who are far more popular and probably far outstrip the Duggar earnings, Kris brokered the deal, there were not separate negotiations or contracts or payments. If anyone in reality TV world has the fame and power to demand things her own way, it would be Kim Kardashian for sure.

I feel certain that JB likewise negotiates for the Duggars, and he is the one who makes the money splits. I imagine it all has to do with camera time, maybe that is why JD keeps popping up, trying to make some dough to support his volunteer police work habits. Hopefully the minors have money saved for them but who knows.

That's exactly how I see it. I cannot see the control freak JB, especially regarding the greenback, letting these innocent kids negogiate their own contract$. There would have been dissention in the ranks by now if all those kids were vying for their own independent piece of the pie.

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Sweetie, never feel embarrassed about what you've experienced - especially here, where there are so many people who can relate. You were very young, very impressionable, and in a bad situation. Many people facing serious illness turn to religion as a source of strength and comfort. Many people fall down the rabbit hole into being an obnoxious blow hard about religion or animal rights or abortion or any number of topics, especially as a teenager. What matters now is that you are healthy and happy (I hope!)

Thank you. :) I do seem to have this thing about hanging onto embarrassment about the past rather than just letting things go and being apologetically who I am now. A large part of it, I think, is that a lot of dumb decisions I made in the past still impact my life a great deal now (like having to essentially redo my entire college education, which, you can imagine, has a wide array of financial and lifestyle consequences, because of a dumb decision I made to major in an impractical field when I was 19). Hopefully I'll get over that at some point. :)

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I still feel bad for the adult kids even though their comments have offended many people. :angry-banghead: They have been conditioned not to question and can only leave with those individuals who also do not question. If they " wake up" they are more than likely trapped by that individual they married, their beliefs, and possibly children. They more than likely fear their parents and do not know that they even have enough money to make their escape easy. Also staying around and towing the party line has a financial incentive as if some of them left there is probably no way that they could provide for themselves.They also have deeply ingrained thoughts about how simple actions have dire consequences like birth control killing babies. There is a lot of will that has to be broken down before one is allowed to be on their own and have their "own opinions". Yes we all are quick to say but TLC and traveling opened their eyes. I do not think that this is the case because it seemed like they are probably lectured by JB over every little thing they encounter.

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I still feel bad for the adult kids even though their comments have offended many people. :angry-banghead: They have been conditioned not to question and can only leave with those individuals who also do not question. If they " wake up" they are more than likely trapped by that individual they married, their beliefs, and possibly children. They more than likely fear their parents and do not know that they even have enough money to make their escape easy. Also staying around and towing the party line has a financial incentive as if some of them left there is probably no way that they could provide for themselves.They also have deeply ingrained thoughts about how simple actions have dire consequences like birth control killing babies. There is a lot of will that has to be broken down before one is allowed to be on their own and have their "own opinions". Yes we all are quick to say but TLC and traveling opened their eyes. I do not think that this is the case because it seemed like they are probably lectured by JB over every little thing they encounter.

I think the most interesting CURRENT dichotomy to me is the fact that JB and M seem overly involved in the personal affairs of their adult kids who are in serious relationships, but virtually ignore the youngest children in terms of guiding, teaching, nurturing, coaching and leading. I also see very little personal involvement with the adult kids who are single and still living at home.

I wonder if JB and M were as disengaged with Josh- Jinger in their formative years as they are with the youngest children?

Is it burn out or is it that JB and M have always parented in that way?

I think their over involvement in the personal lives of their courting offspring borders are pathologic.

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As with everything on this board, it's so easy for us to sit behind our computers and project whatever we want on to this family - good and bad - based on a few (very edited) hours a year we get to witness on TV and the stupid shit they say on the internet.

So... yeah... I both blame and sympathize with the adult kids. They are old enough to theoretically question what they are presented with. They are faced with ample opposition now that they're "out in the open". I understand how their upbringing influences them, but I also think it's totally fair game for them to be held accountable for the idiotic things they tweet. :naughty:

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I have sympathy for all the kids even the adults but i still think they need to be held accountable for their actions when they are out of the house. Not to make them feel bad but to show them the diversity of views and what they were taught isn't the only way to live. You can live with different views and be completely happy, you won't see your life suddenly turn into a downward spiral because you hold different beliefs than your parents. I just really want them to brave enough and mature enough to do some real research on issues without the fear of Satan dragging you to hell. But my heart aches for those kids because the brainwashing is so deep, I can hardly see how they will really escape it. Their parents literally raised them to be defenseless and forever dependent on the cult. Even if they devise a plan, they still have their children living with Jim Bob and Michelle. I think that's the ultimate fear, if they do something wrong to go against their parents and actually stand up for themselves, the little kids will suffer for it. They are in a terrible predicament.

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I think the most interesting CURRENT dichotomy to me is the fact that JB and M seem overly involved in the personal affairs of their adult kids who are in serious relationships, but virtually ignore the youngest children in terms of guiding, teaching, nurturing, coaching and leading. I also see very little personal involvement with the adult kids who are single and still living at home.

I wonder if JB and M were as disengaged with Josh- Jinger in their formative years as they are with the youngest children?

Is it burn out or is it that JB and M have always parented in that way?

I think their over involvement in the personal lives of their courting offspring borders are pathologic.

Sassy, You said exactly what I have been thinking. At least as far as what we are shown, JB and M are way too involved with the older ones and ignore the needs of the younger ones. But the involvement with the older ones is not on things that really matter. It is all about sex, and courtship bullshit. They haven't really guided those older kids towards adulthood in any meaningful way.

I personally have sympathy for all the kids. Yes, once they hit adulthood they are legally responsible for themselves, but they have years of brainwashing, mind control etc to over come. I think that it is appropriate for them to be confronted with their lack of critical thinking when they post stuff on social media etc, because there is a slight chance that one day some of those comments may resonate with one of the kids.

To me, it is clear that JB and M are burning out in the parenting department. Remember the early specials how each kid was neat as pin. Every hair in place, the frumpers were ugly but neat and clean and the Boys wore crisply ironed shirts and khaki pants? Now the kids pretty much look sloppy all the time, except for the older girls.

The boys wear worn out t shirts, hats in the house, faded jeans. The little kids often look dirty, and their hair is always a mess.

If JB and M have employed the buddy system, then they certainly didn't supervise that process very well. While I don't support the buddy system, but if I were to do, then it would be my responsibility to make sure that the older buddies were doing a good job. While we see Jana, Jessa and Jinger with perfectly coiffed hair and make up, we see their youngest buddies looking unkempt and often times dirty. And clearly those younger kids haven't really been taught appropriate discipline, indoor behavior and hygiene habits. So Michelle's buddy system hasn't worked out too well, and her youngest ones have suffered as well as the older ones who were forced to take on responsibilities that they weren't really trained to do, or appropriately supervised to do well.

I can certainly see why the early specials caught on, and even the first season or so, but I can't understand how any leg humper can still support this lifestyle. How can they sit there and here Michelle lament that there will be no one to fill Jessa's place as the home school educator, or family organizer and not wonder why the fuck she can't just get off of her self righteous behind and realize that her new season in life should perhaps include parenting the remaining children she has left.

It is beyond me how anyone can think that this woman is a paragon of motherhood. She may have started out with good intentions and tried her best, but she is proof that it is extremely difficult to adequately mother 19 children.

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Honestly, the only reason the kids will challenge their beliefs without witnessing a negative ramifications of their beliefs, like Zach did. But, even then, they wouldn't publicly renounce their beliefs until TLC is gone.

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Thank you. :) I do seem to have this thing about hanging onto embarrassment about the past rather than just letting things go and being apologetically who I am now. A large part of it, I think, is that a lot of dumb decisions I made in the past still impact my life a great deal now (like having to essentially redo my entire college education, which, you can imagine, has a wide array of financial and lifestyle consequences, because of a dumb decision I made to major in an impractical field when I was 19). Hopefully I'll get over that at some point. :)

No problem! I completely get the whole "Catholic Guilt" thing and I wasn't even raised in a strict family. I also made a poor decision regarding my college education - think Avenue Q's song, "What do you do with a BA in English?" . . . So I also get having to go back to school again. It's tougher now that I'm working and getting married, but earning an education is always a good idea. Good luck!

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Honestly, the only reason the kids will challenge their beliefs without witnessing a negative ramifications of their beliefs, like Zach did. But, even then, they wouldn't publicly renounce their beliefs until TLC is gone.

Money over the truth-

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No problem! I completely get the whole "Catholic Guilt" thing and I wasn't even raised in a strict family. I also made a poor decision regarding my college education - think Avenue Q's song, "What do you do with a BA in English?" . . . So I also get having to go back to school again. It's tougher now that I'm working and getting married, but earning an education is always a good idea. Good luck!

We have twin degrees, then. :P Yes, exactly. Being in school is SO much more stressful with bills and more obligations in general, and with the specific program I'm in, everything would have fallen into place way better had I taken the traditional route. Thanks! You too!

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Money over the truth-

You can't have "truth" in a matter of opinions. Truth is fact. Religious beliefs and personal beliefs are not facts. And its not necessarily "money over truth" as a need for privacy. It's one thing when you question your beliefs, it's a completely different thing when the media feasts on your "rebellion."

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You can't have "truth" in a matter of opinions. Truth is fact. Religious beliefs and personal beliefs are not facts. And its not necessarily "money over truth" as a need for privacy. It's one thing when you question your beliefs, it's a completely different thing when the media feasts on your "rebellion."

I meant their truth and belief system. You implied that no one would come forward before the show ended. So they'd withhold coming forward as a testimony to their true beliefs and wait until the gravy train ended. In any case, not very upstanding.

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I meant their truth and belief system. You implied that no one would come forward before the show ended. So they'd withhold coming forward as a testimony to their true beliefs and wait until the gravy train ended. In any case, not very upstanding.

Yes and I states that it's not necessarily a money problem so much as a media problem. There's an extremely high likelihood that not every child will follow their belief system, but they're also going to protect themselves from the media frenzy.

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I blame the parents, and feel sympathy towards the kids, they have been brainwashed and likely abused into believing what they do, and it is a hard thing to overcome. I cant totally blame them for their beliefs, as they have never known anything else, however more and more blame gets put on them the longer they are saying these things while being out of the house. Josh is less sympathetic because he has been out of there for about 6-7 years now, and lives far away from his family, he has the least control over him, so its worse when he says something bigoted, as he has the chance to learn. Jill and Jessa haven't even been out a full year yet, they are still finding themselves and getting used to being seen as real people, not the property of their parents. They do have the ability to look things up for themselves, but there is a lot of fear over disobeying when you've been taught that disobedience means spanking and shaming by your parents, and God will hate you and send you to Hell.

I don't think we should expect any major changes so soon, if the second someone moved out they turned into a pants wearing, pro choice, pro gay rights, atheist who is outright saying that they will not have kids, they would have rushed into it too soon and just changing to be different from their parents.

Nobody changes overnight, every ex fundie, even the ones who are now super liberal, had to learn gradually on their own and make their own choices. None of the Duggar kids were taught critical thinking skills and how to make decisions for themselves, so this is something they need to develop themselves, and they will go through a sort of adolescence, the teenage years they were never allowed to have, that are about finding who they are and working out what they believe, and gaining the ability to moderate themselves without their parents controlling them so much they never get the opportunity to learn. They have to fall over a few times, and fail, and then learn how to get back up and figure out how to deal with that and how to stop it from happening again. They have to be exposed to people who are different, and learn from them, and it takes a lot of exposure to realise they are people too. They have to say the wrong thing, then get smacked down for it by someone who is very offended by it, and learn the hard way that what they said is not okay. They need to debate with people more knowledgeable than they are, feel embarrassment and shame at not being able to back up their position with anything other than "My parents told me so" or "The Bible said so", then do research for themselves and come up with their own opinions. They need to feel free, overindulge, then feel terrible afterwards and learn their limits. They need to work hard to meet deadlines, put a lot of effort in and get rewarded for it, or keep to Duggar time, be late for work, put little effort in, and then be told off for it, and learn from that and try harder next time.

These experiences take years, you don't just grow up overnight, especially when all of these things should have happened when you are a teenager, and there are less things to screw up horribly and the safety of your parents, instead of a grown adult who likely has at least one kid before that happens.

All of them will one day look back with a bit of regret over something they did or said when they were in the house or freshly out of it.

I think that the bolded part is where we separate the kids from the adults. Due to the excessive, overbearing control with which they were raised, none of them truly developed an independent identity. But once they "leave and cleave" :ew: they do become fair game, especially if they are on social media berating others. But it will take time for them to begin to develop their own brains, and failing and falling down is part of that process. They NEED honest, intellectual criticism; it will help them learn. But it will also take quite awhile. And they will need enough humility to admit they might not be right about things. I think Josh is slowly developing that sense (based off his comments about maybe having fewer kids), but I think it will take Jessa awhile. Ten years is a good time frame; I think you're correct. OTOH, I suspect a few of the Lost Girls and Howlers will have a much easier time recognizing that their parents were fools and their educations shams. Some of their travel pictures give the impression that the younger kids notice that their parents (JB especially, "gracias"ing in every country) are tools.

For all the offspring, I think proximity to parents is quite detrimental to their development. I also suspect this is why JB provided houses to all the married couples -- keeping them closer means keeping them accountable. Several Patheos writers mention that moving away from parents helped encourage true maturity. They are all just so stunted from those lost developmental years. I sadly suspect that this will keep Jill near and deep within the cult. For awhile, I hoped Derrick would help her become more liberal, but now I think that losing his father unexpectedly has made him line up for the KoolAid. I fear they will be JB's model couple.

I keep comparing their cult to the FLDS, in large part because both are so controlling and emphasize fertility to such a degree. But even people in the FLDS can break free, and they are usually far more impoverished than the Duggars. Patheos has several stories of people eventually breaking free, as well -- and even Susanna Keller broke free. But everyone who writes about their process notes that it takes years to free themselves from the brainwashing.

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I wish they could get some real therapy to help them. They need it. I don't expect the kids to change right away. It's actually impossible to change overnight when you've been brainwashed to believe everything around you is sinful. Since Jill and Jessa married outside their cult, they should know better and realize what they've gotten themselves into. Get away from your in laws they're toxic. And get your spouse some counseling.

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I wish they could get some real therapy to help them. They need it. I don't expect the kids to change right away. It's actually impossible to change overnight when you've been brainwashed to believe everything around you is sinful. Since Jill and Jessa married outside their cult, they should know better and realize what they've gotten themselves into. Get away from your in laws they're toxic. And get your spouse some counseling.

They would have to admit to having signs of psychological distress/mental illness first, which they've apparently been conditioned never to do. I don't think the average therapist is going to tell them their religious beliefs and practices are wrong or need rethinking unless they admit to feelings of depression, entrapment, etc. There are some therapists who will flat out tell clients their religious practices are wrong, but usually religious practices are exempt from the commonsense rule about pointing out maladaptive behaviors clients engage in even if they don't think they have a problem.

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I think that the bolded part is where we separate the kids from the adults. Due to the excessive, overbearing control with which they were raised, none of them truly developed an independent identity. But once they "leave and cleave" :ew: they do become fair game, especially if they are on social media berating others. But it will take time for them to begin to develop their own brains, and failing and falling down is part of that process. They NEED honest, intellectual criticism; it will help them learn. But it will also take quite awhile. And they will need enough humility to admit they might not be right about things. I think Josh is slowly developing that sense (based off his comments about maybe having fewer kids), but I think it will take Jessa awhile. Ten years is a good time frame; I think you're correct. OTOH, I suspect a few of the Lost Girls and Howlers will have a much easier time recognizing that their parents were fools and their educations shams. Some of their travel pictures give the impression that the younger kids notice that their parents (JB especially, "gracias"ing in every country) are tools.

For all the offspring, I think proximity to parents is quite detrimental to their development. I also suspect this is why JB provided houses to all the married couples -- keeping them closer means keeping them accountable. Several Patheos writers mention that moving away from parents helped encourage true maturity. They are all just so stunted from those lost developmental years. I sadly suspect that this will keep Jill near and deep within the cult. For awhile, I hoped Derrick would help her become more liberal, but now I think that losing his father unexpectedly has made him line up for the KoolAid. I fear they will be JB's model couple.

I keep comparing their cult to the FLDS, in large part because both are so controlling and emphasize fertility to such a degree. But even people in the FLDS can break free, and they are usually far more impoverished than the Duggars. Patheos has several stories of people eventually breaking free, as well -- and even Susanna Keller broke free. But everyone who writes about their process notes that it takes years to free themselves from the brainwashing.

Yeah, I totally agree. Babying them by not calling them out when they say something stupid cause they don't know any better isn't going to help. They may not know any better, but they wont learn if people go easy on them. They need to say something awful and then see people offended, hurt and outraged at it, and for it to get plenty of negative attention. Sure, theyre deleting it now, but theyre seeing it when they delete it, and getting so much hate mail has got to make them feel something. Maybe eventually they will learn that saying these things will not make people like them, and if they want to keep their fans they need to stop doing it. And then that will lead to learning that these things are bad.

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I am fine with them being confronted with the stupid stuff they post on social media, but even then I think a gentler approach is best. These kidults don't simply really know anything else. So when or if we ever have the chance to give them some feedback, I think it should be supportive, and constructive, not vicious and bullying.

These kids have been raised to believe that their beliefs will be persecuted. When people respond to them in a very negative, aggressively confrontational way, it just confirms to them what they have been taught by their parents. But if people respond in a caring, constructive way, there is far more chance that some of it will get through to them.

When I have read some of the responses on IG to some of Jessa's nasty posts, I cringe because I know that if Jessa bothers to read them, she will just really feel like she has been vindicated because the "sinners" are attacking and being mean. She will respond defensively and just dig in deeper with her beliefs. We want to avoid that defensiveness and show them they don't need to fear other opinions, points of view, life styles, etc.

If I ever had the chance to have a face to face encounter with on of the adult kids, I would want to carefully engage them in conversation and try to gently point out the flawed logic. I realize I will never have that chance, so this is just wishful thinking.

However, if I had the chance to have a face to face encounter with JB and M, I doubt I would care too much about offending them. They are too far gone, and the only thing likely to ever affect change in them is if they are in desperate need of money. And then the change wouldn't be genuine as it would just be to serve the almighty dollar.

JB and M, possibly started out sincere, in addition to terribly misguided and naively gullible to a false prophet like Gothard. But I think JB at least, would walk away if he faced losing the money. I mean truly losing it all. I think JB lives a good life, does little actual work, and gets to be the big man on campus in his little world. But I don't feel he has the same level of deep committment to the ideology that Michelle has. Michelle is steeped in it deeply and it is likely a result of some serious guilt she feels for something in her past, and this has turned into where she is now.

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Yes and I states that it's not necessarily a money problem so much as a media problem. There's an extremely high likelihood that not every child will follow their belief system, but they're also going to protect themselves from the media frenzy.

Disagree- it's always about the money.

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Yes and I states that it's not necessarily a money problem so much as a media problem. There's an extremely high likelihood that not every child will follow their belief system, but they're also going to protect themselves from the media frenzy.

I agree. I think money is definitely a factor, and one that's impossible to separate from the whole media issue anyway, but I've always believed that the show makes it extremely unlikely that any of the kids leave the lifestyle. Hell, Jim Bob and Michelle could want out, too, and they wouldn't. Losing the income stream is one (huge) thing, but having to eat your words? That is so hard, especially publicly. With the kids specifically, whatever they feel about their lifestyle, they love their family. And they know that no matter how they do it, publicly walking out will bring all sort of attention to their loved ones, especially from their harshest critics. Even if some of them couldn't stand their parents, we all know how it is with families. I can talk all the shit I want about my sisters or my parents but gods help you if you do. I can imagine them not wanting to give fodder for people to speculate.
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Disagree- it's always about the money.

But, according to your beliefs, they never see the money. So if it were all about the money, wouldn't they go with the media driven fall out that would land them paid interviews and what not?

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