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Lemchop

Blame vs. sympathy for Duggar kids

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Lemchop

Hey everyone! First time starting a thread. I'm going to try to turn my incoherent train of thought into a readable post.

 

There are a lot of conflicting perceptions of the Duggar children, especially as they approach adulthood. I think we pretty unanimously view the elementary-aged through teenage children as victims of their parents' choices, and of the destructive fundamentalist culture in general. Seeing someone as a victim reduces the degree to which we seem them as an agent (i.e. capable of independent thoughts and decisions), so even though these kids have the same hateful views as their parents, we excuse them because they don't know better.

 

However, as soon as a Duggar kid moves out of the house, in our eyes they immediately become responsible for their beliefs and actions. There is open criticism towards Josh, Jill, and Jessa about decisions they've made (e.g. no birth control, work for hate group, etc.) and things they've said on social media. There is such an abrupt shift in the way we perceive them, when in reality their maturation has been happening fluidly since they were born. We're angry with who they are now, when the people they are now have been in the making for the past 20+ years. They didn't suddenly gain insight when they got married, so why suddenly hold them accountable for beliefs they've had for years?

 

I think part of what causes this is our victimization of the Duggar kids still living at home. We act as if every one of them is silently wishing they could escape, without realizing that the kids themselves buy into the culture just as much as their parents do. We feel sorry for them because they've never been exposed to a non-Gothard school of thought, but because of that isolation, they don't feel like they're missing out. I know I've always seen Jana as an overworked Cinderella-type character, but the fact is, she probably enthusiastically agrees with all the horrible things her parents stand for.

 

My point is, if we insist that the kids at home are "blameless," then that shouldn't end when they leave the compound. They're still the exact same people with the exact same life experiences, who were taught that critical thinking is off limits. If we insist that they are responsible for their own decisions and opinions when they leave home, then it may be useful to remind ourselves that the kids we currently sympathize with--Josiah, Joy Anna, Jana, Hannie--are also bigoted, sexist, homophobes that swear we're doing the devil's work.

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Toothfairy

I'm on each side of blaming them and their parents. It's their parents fault they're uneducated, and for the abuse. However when your on a tv show making money, putting your name out there and talking shit on social media of course people are going to talk. The Duggar kids should be responsible for their own actions especially the married ones. I'm not going to excuse their behavior. The only thing I will excuse is how they were raised but they don't have to raise their own kids or families like their parents did. There is a certain point in time when you need to take charge of your own life(not if your a maxwell) I blame my parents for a lot of shit but I'm not going to raise my kids like my parent raised me. It doesn't excuse my behavior. I realized that in life people aren't going to feel sorry for me.

I think some people see marriage as a way out. Jill, Josh and Jessa are out and about. They have freedom to do what they want. They're all on social media spewing hate or their opinions. The only thing is they don't realize that if you post something people will challenge and debate with you. These kids have been exposed to a lot of different things. I'm sure they're not that damn stupid. They even changed their whole appearance for the show. They traveled and communicate with people outside their bible everyday.

I do have sympathy for all of them. It's wrong for any parent to brainwash, abuse and take away their children's childhoods. I 100% blame JimChelle for this. However when Jessa, Josh, or Jill post stupid shit on social media or participate in bullshit I 100% blame them for their actions. Comparing abortion to the Holocaust. Talking shit about catholics. The I survive Roe vs Wade t shirts. That's unacceptable behavior.

Also if any second generation fundie raise their third generation kids like they were raised, then they get the side eye from me. The second generation has a chance to break the cycle of abuse they endured. Why make your children go through that abuse?

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BrownieMomma

I have some sympathy towards the married adults who are technically out of TTH but life ... well.. at some point you have to become responsible for yourself.

One day you are 17 and cannot vote, the next day you are 18 and can vote. One day you are 20 and cannot drink alcohol, the next day you can buy a beer.

So that is kind of how life works. Like it or not, these Duggar kids are now adults and wholly responsible for what they say and do - even if they had their wings clipped by Mom and Dad years ago.

All for being raised in such isolation and controlled environment, they sure seem to have figured out pretty quickly how social media works. They are for sure responsible for how they use it, because if they don't really quite get it, they can choose to not use it. This lessens my willingness to cut them a break, they sure as heck weren't taught to be all over social media - if they can learn this, why can't they learn other things?

They can choose to draw a curtain over their private lives; JB might be able to control the money flow but JB cannot force those adults to continue participating - look how little we see Jana and Josiah.

Life is not fair or easy, and like it or not, the blamelessness does indeed end the moment they leave the compound. It's abrupt, but that is just how life works sometimes.

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theradiosong

I (obviously) do not post a lot, but I do lurk. It was my understanding that the majority of people who are upset at Jessa, Jill, Josh etc's actions are still placing the blame upon J'Chelle and Boob. Now in a few years, if they are still extremely closeminded and making some of the choices that they currently are, they have had time to learn at that point. But they were just released from under a very controlling thumb (and, as a fundie woman, are back under another, though hopefully less controlling), and have years and years of brainwashing to counter. If they are even able to see or care that there is a whole other world out there.

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DGayle

When they leave the house, they aren't under their parents' rule anymore, and so are responsible for their choices. They aren't going to risk being punished my their parents. At this point, they're choosing to stay the course.

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feministxtian

When the adult kids start posting shit on social media and get challenged...well...fair is fair. You put your opinions out there and others may challenge you. It even happens to us mortals who are not "famous". They want to be adults, then they can deal with getting pushback on their opinions. The problem with the adult Duggar kids, as I see it, is they don't have the ability to think critically about what they're saying, nor do they have the desire to research their positions or look at opposing points of view.

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lizbeth

I, too, sympathize but don't think it's realistic to expect the world to give them an infinite pass because they're products of their upbringing. A pass that extends a few years past the moment they leave their parents' house so they have some time to see reality for what it is would be nice, but it would be nice for a lot of other people all over the world who are suddenly thrust into the "real world" overnight. A lot of people had messed up upbringings, and it's unfair. My parents did a really shitty job raising me in many ways, and I struggle a lot in young adulthood now as a result. No one cuts me any breaks, though. It is a difficult thing for sure, figuring out where to draw the line between an excuse and a mere explanation for why someone is the way he/she is.

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lascuba

Sympathizing with their upbringing and thinking they're shitty people aren't mutually exclusive. We all know that Jessa, Jill, and Josh are the product of their upbringing, and that they are extremely limited in their knowledge and ability to learn and understand new concepts. It still doesn't change the fact that their beliefs and actions are reprehensible. It's like feeling sorry for the horrible childhood a criminal had while still believing he needs to be in prison for the crimes he committed.

And personally, I don't limit my contempt for the Duggars that are out of the house. Jinger harasses people in airports and on planes with her bumbling proselytizing, and considering how much they talk about Jana putting off marriage so she can have more time to spread her whacked out beliefs, I have to believe that as "nice" as she appears she's probably just as obnoxious.

I would be genuinely happy for any of them if they left that life and were able to find happiness and contentment in doing so, but until that happens I won't be wasting my time giving them that much benefit of the doubt.

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ILoveJellybeans

I blame the parents, and feel sympathy towards the kids, they have been brainwashed and likely abused into believing what they do, and it is a hard thing to overcome. I cant totally blame them for their beliefs, as they have never known anything else, however more and more blame gets put on them the longer they are saying these things while being out of the house. Josh is less sympathetic because he has been out of there for about 6-7 years now, and lives far away from his family, he has the least control over him, so its worse when he says something bigoted, as he has the chance to learn. Jill and Jessa haven't even been out a full year yet, they are still finding themselves and getting used to being seen as real people, not the property of their parents. They do have the ability to look things up for themselves, but there is a lot of fear over disobeying when you've been taught that disobedience means spanking and shaming by your parents, and God will hate you and send you to Hell.

I don't think we should expect any major changes so soon, if the second someone moved out they turned into a pants wearing, pro choice, pro gay rights, atheist who is outright saying that they will not have kids, they would have rushed into it too soon and just changing to be different from their parents.

Nobody changes overnight, every ex fundie, even the ones who are now super liberal, had to learn gradually on their own and make their own choices. None of the Duggar kids were taught critical thinking skills and how to make decisions for themselves, so this is something they need to develop themselves, and they will go through a sort of adolescence, the teenage years they were never allowed to have, that are about finding who they are and working out what they believe, and gaining the ability to moderate themselves without their parents controlling them so much they never get the opportunity to learn. They have to fall over a few times, and fail, and then learn how to get back up and figure out how to deal with that and how to stop it from happening again. They have to be exposed to people who are different, and learn from them, and it takes a lot of exposure to realise they are people too. They have to say the wrong thing, then get smacked down for it by someone who is very offended by it, and learn the hard way that what they said is not okay. They need to debate with people more knowledgeable than they are, feel embarrassment and shame at not being able to back up their position with anything other than "My parents told me so" or "The Bible said so", then do research for themselves and come up with their own opinions. They need to feel free, overindulge, then feel terrible afterwards and learn their limits. They need to work hard to meet deadlines, put a lot of effort in and get rewarded for it, or keep to Duggar time, be late for work, put little effort in, and then be told off for it, and learn from that and try harder next time.

These experiences take years, you don't just grow up overnight, especially when all of these things should have happened when you are a teenager, and there are less things to screw up horribly and the safety of your parents, instead of a grown adult who likely has at least one kid before that happens.

All of them will one day look back with a bit of regret over something they did or said when they were in the house or freshly out of it.

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VelociRapture

Everyone has a different opinion on this topic. For me, personally, I still cut the married kids a good amount of slack because - as you said - they are the products of their parents' choices.

For me, I think around the 10 year mark after leaving home will be a good indicator of how they intend to live the rest of their lives - mostly because they'll have had more than enough time to at least think about exploring the outside world. Josh is approaching that in a few more years and already he seems to be showing strain over the choices he has made. Time will tell what happens with these kids, but after the first ten years I'll probably cut them less slack.

That said, I do find myself less tolerant of the kids who publicly go on rants or bother people about their religious beliefs. Jessa, for instance, gets less sympathy from me than Jill does because the Dillards don't constantly post ridiculous rants on their social media accounts like Benessa does. I'm sure her beliefs are exactly the same, but I can appreciate the fact that she doesn't constantly try forcing it down our throats.

And yes, the kids who are still minors get off without much criticism from me because they have little to no options to try and leave before they are 18 - it's still incredibly difficult at that point, but the legal hurdles are gone.

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Four is Enough

I'm with VelociRapture, whose name I LOVE!! I think ten years is a good test. I've thought back to my leaving home at 18. I was raised as a Roman Catholic, and although I didn't realize it, was fairly sheltered, in that I didn't know many people who weren't RC. Moving into a college dormitory changed a LOT of things about my perceptions of people, and that is an experience no Duggar is really going to have. Even if Joseph goes to live in a dorm, the occupants will all be very similar to him in makeup.

Anyway, it took me a couple years of living away from home full time to fully re-think some of my misconceptions about things, religion, politics. It took more years to sort the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, and to keep what I was going to live by.

So ten years. That's what they get. Better get on the ball, Josh. Clock's tickin'.

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legalbeagle

I mostly lurk but had to jump in on this one...

I wasn't raised fundy, but I converted to evangelical Christianity in high school and attended an evangelical college. I would say I didn't become a progressive Christian until my late 20s and I didn't lose my faith altogether until I was 30.

It takes a LONG time to let go of those beliefs and fears. The terror of going to hell is what kept me in the fold for so long. And I didn't even have familial pressure OR my career dependent upon my keeping those beliefs. I think it's a LOT harder for people like the Duggars to step back from their fundamentalist beliefs than many of us give them credit for because their entire lives center around their religious lifestyle -- it isn't just that they're afraid they'll go to hell if they don't believe in Jesus; they are in danger of losing their entire family AND their jobs and financial stability. I cannot even imagine the kind of pressure they must be under to toe the line.

I agree with the PPs that 10 years is a good measure, but I think it will take longer for the older Duggars because they have created their "brands" around their fundy beliefs. Josh, for example, would have to find a non-Duggar/non-Christian organization to work for that paid him enough money to support his growing family before he could even consider rethinking his beliefs -- and what is the likelihood of that happening? I think pretty low. Some of those kids (adults) will never break free simply because they can't afford to -- literally.

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Walking Cat Bed

It took me about fifteen years to undo the shit I was taught -- about myself and about the world. And I was in public schools and had at least one non-church friend at a time (because they weren't as mean and judgy as most of the church kids, honestly). It took me two or three to start questioning -- asking WHY the cult was more right than the other churches in town, WHY it was okay for me to go to events at one outside church but not another, and so on. I still appeared to be happily following for a good five years after that -- it wasn't until I was 25 that I started really hashing it out and deciding beliefs for myself.

Edit: hit submit accidentally. I'll give the Duggar kids a bit of leeway, because most of them don't have access to the world beyond what their parents allow -- and are viewing everything through the standards given by said parents. And, even with travel and public appearances, are very isolated. Do you really think that Jinger or Jedidiah could have an actual conversation with a "stranger"? They have a tour bus, JD has his plane, and they don't let anyone do anything alone -- even trips through airports won't involve much interaction with people they don't know. They have no privacy, no chance to explore new ideas, no chance to think anything not previously approved by their parents.

Josh's clock is ticking, but Jessa and Jill haven't even been out of the house for a year each. Jill probably hasn't even looked for pregnancy/mommy websites that aren't Gothard (and parent) approved yet. Even though Josh and Jessa have obnoxious personalities, I can sympathize a bit. Unlearning that shit takes time and effort and curiosity and access -- and unlearning shame and guilt and that immediate judgmental reaction have to happen first.

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SassyPants
When they leave the house, they aren't under their parents' rule anymore, and so are responsible for their choices. They aren't going to risk being punished my their parents. At this point, they're choosing to stay the course.

Well, we know that Jill and Jessa [especially] are still relying on JB for tangible support. For all we know, TLC pays JB (perhaps the adult kids have signed contracts allowing such) and JB doles the money out to the balance. If that is the case, even Josh is still dancing on JB's strings. If JB can keep his own mother tethered and washing laundry, Josh is a no brainer.

Of course the kids (and parents) have been brainwashed...so if that's the case, why do people think that over 18 yo kids have their own TLC contracts and are getting their own paychecks? If we can mostly agree that JB's influence is still controlling their thoughts and beliefs, why would we think that when it comes to business and economics, the 18 year olds are all of a sudden independent and in charge? IMO, it has been proven that reality TV works far differently than any other media entity. I'm assuming this is because it's a rather new concept. Give it time and the rules and regs will be in place, which of course will make it too expensive to continue.

Also FJ in a way perpetuates this too. For ex, the adult kids who still live at home are protected from certain conversations, while those who are 18+ but living out of the TTH are fair game.

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J'Isabel

Well, we know that Jill and Jessa [especially] are still relying on JB for tangible support. For all we know, TLC pays JB (perhaps the adult kids have signed contracts allowing such) and JB doles the money out to the balance. If that is the case, even Josh is still dancing on JB's strings. If JB can keep his own mother tethered and washing laundry, Josh is a no brainer.

Of course the kids (and parents) have been brainwashed...so if that's the case, why do people think that over 18 yo kids have their own TLC contracts and are getting their own paychecks? If we can mostly agree that JB's influence is still controlling their thoughts and beliefs, why would we think that when it comes to business and economics, the 18 year olds are all of a sudden independent and in charge? IMO, it has been proven that reality TV works far differently than any other media entity. I'm assuming this is because it's a rather new concept. Give it time and the rules and regs will be in place, which of course will make it too expensive to continue.

Also FJ in a way perpetuates this too. For ex, the adult kids who still live at home are protected from certain conversations, while those who are 18+ but living out of the TTH are fair game.

While I don't buy the theory that JB is denying his adult children their own contracts, Jessa and Jill are still financially under JB's thumb, and so is Josh to some extent. Jessa and Jill are living in homes that JB owns and rely on TLC money to make ends meet. I don't know how much money Derick makes, but I know that Ben is pulling in exactly $0 outside of TLC. If they go against JB and Michelle's wishes or beliefs, they could lose everything. I can see JB kicking them out of the rental homes (because, really, do you think they signed a real lease?) and having TLC boot them from the show if they stepped out of line. Same with Josh, although he would be in a much better position with his FRC job. I can see why they continue to toe the line once they move out -- they may be legal, married adults, but in reality they are just playing house on Daddy's dime. And JB can pull that plug on a whim at the first sign of resistance. If he does, they have no education or job prospects as a backup plan, which is also their parents' fault for not educating them properly. It's a scary position to be in (I've been in a similar one in the past), so I'm willing to cut them some slack for at least another few years.

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VelociRapture
I'm with VelociRapture, whose name I LOVE!!

Lol! Thanks! Is it bad that I thought a long time before settling on this one - and when I finally did, I was super proud of myself?

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SassyPants

While I don't buy the theory that JB is denying his adult children their own contracts, Jessa and Jill are still financially under JB's thumb, and so is Josh to some extent. Jessa and Jill are living in homes that JB owns and rely on TLC money to make ends meet. I don't know how much money Derick makes, but I know that Ben is pulling in exactly $0 outside of TLC. If they go against JB and Michelle's wishes or beliefs, they could lose everything. I can see JB kicking them out of the rental homes (because, really, do you think they signed a real lease?) and having TLC boot them from the show if they stepped out of line. Same with Josh, although he would be in a much better position with his FRC job. I can see why they continue to toe the line once they move out -- they may be legal, married adults, but in reality they are just playing house on Daddy's dime. And JB can pull that plug on a whim at the first sign of resistance. If he does, they have no education or job prospects as a backup plan, which is also their parents' fault for not educating them properly. It's a scary position to be in (I've been in a similar one in the past), so I'm willing to cut them some slack for at least another few years.

If the adult kids had their own contracts, how would they still be financially under JBs control, especially those no longer living in the TTH? Maybe Jill because she lives in JB's home, but neither Jessa/Ben nor Josh/Anna would be under JBs control at all, if they had their own viable TLC contracts.

Jessa/Ben would have to answer to GM Mary as she is their landlord.

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Furslippers15

I too believe there should be empathy for the children. They have been indoctrinated to believe in a God that is vengeful and hell is for those that fall from the path. They need to be deprogrammed by professionals that deal with cults IMHO. Agree with the with the post above about the isolation from main stream society. They do not socialize with others that are not of the same belief system. It always crosses my mind with hope that at least one of them has surfed the net. If anyone was to show disloyalty to the cult. They would be disowned from the family and the only community they've known.

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SassyPants
I too believe there should be empathy for the children. They have been indoctrinated to believe in a God that is vengeful and hell is for those that fall from the path. They need to be deprogrammed by professionals that deal with cults IMHO. Agree with the with the post above about the isolation from main stream society. They do not socialize with others that are not of the same belief system. It always crosses my mind with hope that at least one of them has surfed the net. If anyone was to show disloyalty to the cult. They would be disowned from the family and the only community they've known.

I think JB and M are also brainwashed- and it would also be very difficult for them to leave Gothard.

Duggarville= dysfunction.

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Furslippers15

J.B and Michelle made a choice to worship. They had the opertunity to see/experienced the outside world than choose. The children did not. Does anyone no about Grandma Duggars beliefs? There was one episode were JB father was staying with them. Michelle was pregnant with Josie and Grandpa Duggar made remark about them having too many children. Grandmother D had only 2 children so did she follow the quiverful teachings? J.B sister doesn't share the same religious beliefs. Does Grandma Duggar wear pants when she is away from the TTH ?

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lizbeth

I can also relate to the process of very gradually giving up conservative beliefs. I wasn't brought up fundie, although I was put in Catholic school for a while, which I guess sort of planted some of the first seeds in my mind. I actually kind of fundied myself in my early teens. It's a really embarrassing story, but I had health problems and was terrified, so I started getting really into all of those awful Christian broadcasting shows where they claim that people are healed while praying with the people on TV. Then when I wasn't healed, I figured it was because I wasn't a good enough Christian, so I started adopting all of the beliefs I thought I needed to have in order to be more in God's favor. The more I read and more brainwashing shows I watched, the more it all seemed to make sense to me.

I was nowhere near Duggar-level fundie, but I was pretty obnoxious until I was about 19 or 20. I did things like post Facebook rants about how hypocritical it was of people to remove "Christ" from the word "Christmas." I held conversations with friends about why being gay was wrong and people who were predisposed to homosexuality had to resist the temptation to sin just like people who struggle more with other types of sins. I changed my freaking college major because I thought God would be mad at me over all of the evolution talk that went on in my psychology classes. What the professors said made intuitive sense to me, which was hard to reconcile with, but I also "knew" that I couldn't accept any of it because it was against God. I thought I was just being logical and doing the right thing.

As I was exposed to reasoning that counteracted my beliefs in college, I very slowly began to become more and more liberal, but I resisted the change for as long as I could. I became more and more pissed off at all of the misogyny that existed places I never realized, but I also knew being a feminist was sinful, so I tried to push those convictions out of my mind and then be very selective about what views I allowed myself to acknowledge I held. When you believe certain beliefs will cause you to burn in a pit of fire for eternity, you're willing to fight against the logic right in front of you in whatever ways you can think of. You get to a point where you can't deny the way you truly feel about topics, but it takes time. Did for me anyway, so I can understand how it's a slow transition process for many people even when they see the flaws in their ways of living and thinking right in front of them. At the same time, unacceptable actions are unacceptable actions. It was unacceptable of me to vote against other people's rights. It was incredibly eyerolly of me to get angry at my college professors for teaching fundamental science principles.

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VelociRapture
I can also relate to the process of very gradually giving up conservative beliefs. I wasn't brought up fundie, although I was put in Catholic school for a while, which I guess sort of planted some of the first seeds in my mind. I actually kind of fundied myself in my early teens. It's a really embarrassing story, but I had health problems and was terrified, so I started getting really into all of those awful Christian broadcasting shows where they claim that people are healed while praying with the people on TV. Then when I wasn't healed, I figured it was because I wasn't a good enough Christian, so I started adopting all of the beliefs I thought I needed to have in order to be more in God's favor. The more I read and more brainwashing shows I watched, the more it all seemed to make sense to me.

Sweetie, never feel embarrassed about what you've experienced - especially here, where there are so many people who can relate. You were very young, very impressionable, and in a bad situation. Many people facing serious illness turn to religion as a source of strength and comfort. Many people fall down the rabbit hole into being an obnoxious blow hard about religion or animal rights or abortion or any number of topics, especially as a teenager. What matters now is that you are healthy and happy (I hope!)

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J'Isabel

If the adult kids had their own contracts, how would they still be financially under JBs control, especially those no longer living in the TTH? Maybe Jill because she lives in JB's home, but neither Jessa/Ben nor Josh/Anna would be under JBs control at all, if they had their own viable TLC contracts.

Jessa/Ben would have to answer to GM Mary as she is their landlord.

... because the show is 19 Kids and Counting, featuring JB & Michelle and how they manage their huge brood. It is branching out to include the DC Duggars, Seewalds and Dillards, but it does not hinge on their participation. I'll be honest: if a whole season went by with no mention of Josh and Anna, I wouldn't even notice. I'm sure JB has the power to tell TLC who he does and does not want featured on HIS show. He doesn't have the power to stop a spin off I guess, so maybe they could make money that way, but I doubt it would happen while 19 KAC is still on the air. Jessa and Ben might be ok in Grandma Mary's house, depending on the circumstances, but I could see major pressure from JB on her to kick them out. Plus, how is Ben supposed to pay rent when he has no job?

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SassyPants

... because the show is 19 Kids and Counting, featuring JB & Michelle and how they manage their huge brood. It is branching out to include the DC Duggars, Seewalds and Dillards, but it does not hinge on their participation. I'll be honest: if a whole season went by with no mention of Josh and Anna, I wouldn't even notice. I'm sure JB has the power to tell TLC who he does and does not want featured on HIS show. He doesn't have the power to stop a spin off I guess, so maybe they could make money that way, but I doubt it would happen while 19 KAC is still on the air. Jessa and Ben might be ok in Grandma Mary's house, depending on the circumstances, but I could see major pressure from JB on her to kick them out. Plus, how is Ben supposed to pay rent when he has no job?

IMO, if JB tried to kick any of the adult kids off of his show (which is a fallacy by the way, it has never been a show solely about JB), the show would be over. The entire premise of this show is a loving family living according to the cult's rules God's rules. The elimination of kids from the show d/t to spite, would be the death of Duggarville being reality TV's media darling.

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J'Isabel

IMO, if JB tried to kick any of the adult kids off of his show (which is a fallacy by the way, it has never been a show solely about JB), the show would be over. The entire premise of this show is a loving family living according to the cult's rules God's rules. The elimination of kids from the show d/t to spite, would be the death of Duggarville being reality TV's media darling.

If it's not JB's show, then why do you feel the way you do about contracts? ;)

Anyway, I agree. A rift like that, with any of the currently married kids being kicked out of the clan, would spell the end for 19 KAC. I don't think that viewers would stand for it, and I don't think that the Duggar's reputation would recover. However, it would still be very bad for any kids who don't toe the line. The consequences - losing the TLC money, losing their homes - would be the same for them.

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