Growing up ATI and the truth about Wisdom Booklets

[formergothardite]

I've not read RG in a couple of months and they have had some good articles.

 

This first one is written by former students describing the regrets that come with being raised ATI.

 

"My greatest regret is not dating and probably marrying the man I loved when I was 19. My parents did not approve of him, and I obeyed them and married the man they did approve of. I thought if I didn't marry him, I'd end up an old maid. It was the biggest mistake of my life, and I am now divorced. If I'd been able to date around a little bit, I would have gained enough understanding and maturity to see the red flags that I did not see then. My other regret is not getting a college degree when I was young, before marriage and kids. Now it is too expensive and difficult to get a degree, I no longer have the time or energy." L. J

 

Forbidding your kids from dating doesn't help them and it isn't a practice for divorce. I hate hearing that.

 

"Looking for a good job, finding one that looks good and getting to the qualifications only to realize they require a two year degree at least. I regret listening to the whole, 'character will open doors for you that education never will.'Bologna! Education gets you in, character and work ethic keep you in. I have many regrets, but my deepest regret is starting to raise my kids in a way that diminished their personality and demanded what they should not have to give. I had to learn to be a loving parent when I could have enjoyed years of seeing them blossom and grow." K.B.

 

Oh yes, Bill used to brag about how ATI students would have people walk up and offer them high paying jobs just based on their shining countenance and great character.

 

A childhood that ought to have been beautiful and sweet, was instead crushed with the harsh, unforgiving burden of living under the hundreds of ATI rules. We regret that as adults we have stunted relationships with our parents who seem incapable of ever just loving us, but instead always finding something in our lives to judge and condemn.

 

This is the truth and I wished it came through in the Duggar and Bates shows. Being raised ATI, especially as deep into ATI as those families are, is not fun.

 

From the comments

 

Before 1998ish: "You don't need a degree, only character counts. You will have tons of opportunities... you will work for kings. People with degrees are idiots and heathens anyway. You will have to sell your soul to get a degree." This is the ATI I was raised with

 

After 1998ish: "Everyone should get a degree through Verity, or a fake degree of some kind. Louisiana Baptist University will give you a degree for washing dishes at a training center. Embassy "University" will give you a degree for watching Larry Guthrie eat crayons, the Pineapple Story, and Advanced Seminar. It really doesn't matter how you get a degree, as long as you do it through us."

 

"By the way, Bill Gothard just got a P.H.D. from LBU! Yay! Oh, and everyone on the Board has advanced degrees from secular colleges. Awesome! All our conference speakers have advanced degrees this year! So cool!"

 

It would have been one thing if they had admitted they were wrong about the whole college thing, but they didn't. They went with "Let's pretend that never happened and that we didn't majorly fuck up the lives of thousands of former students."

 

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2015/01/ ... rets/#more

 

This article is about the ATI curriculum.

 

The Advanced Training Institute (ATI) curriculum was promoted and sold to pastors and homeschool parents as the best homeschool curriculum in the world

 

People who are lured into ATI are told this and are usually shocked to find out that they have been lied to, but you are also made to feel like it is your fault if the curriculum doesn't work.

 

The education concept that was supposed to make ATI curriculum "advanced" is that of teaching by using analogies and training young people to think in analogies. Basing the curriculum on Scripture was part of the analogy process and made the curriculum unique. Using Scripture also made the ATI curriculum appear to be a very godly program. Bill Gothard used the fact that it was uniquely based around the Sermon on the Mount as a powerful selling feature that got many of us parents to want to be part of his faulty education program

 

I can still recite the Sermon on the Mount.

 

Bill Gothard said that the ATI curriculum was far superior to other education materials because it taught using analogies and integrated Scripture with academic subjects. He stated that teaching individual subjects (math, English, science, history, etc.) separately from each of the others, as is done in traditional education, prevented children from being able to have a broader scope of reasoning and thinking. The ATI curriculum was supposed to be an advanced training system because it integrated the academic subjects. However, it was soon discovered that the Wisdom Booklets (the ATI curriculum) were not adequate for teaching math and English. Traditional education curriculums had to be used to supplement the ATI curriculum and those and some other subjects were taught separately.

 

Sucks to be the parents who can't afford to buy another curriculum after buying the worthless ATI one.

 

Gothard told us that with the content and design of the Wisdom Booklets, in 12 years the ATI program would not only give a child a high school equivalent training, but would also give the equivalent of four years of college, a pre-law, a pre-med, and a business education

 

 

Bill Gothard made the following statements:

 

 

"The ATI program - the Federal Education Board does not have tests to give the achievement! The students are acing the tests!"

 

"By the 12th year [a young person will have the equivalent of] a pre-med, a pre-law, and a business [degree]."

 

"The way to teach children wisdom is to speak in analogies."

 

There are not even tests that can test the wisdom of ATI students!

 

The little Wisdom Booklets do not even have enough content in their small number of pages to be able to give a child a high school level of training, let alone the equivalent of a triple college degree. There was basically nothing in the Wisdom Booklets on business. This lack of content was a frustration for many mothers because they had to pull in other resources to complete the curriculum

 

What was worse were the parents who didn't realize that they were being scammed and didn't even try to supplement.

 

Not only does the ATI program not have enough content to give a high school level of training, it is only a seven year curriculum. It is not a complete 12 year curriculum. From eighth grade to twelfth grade, when a person should be learning higher level subjects, the ATI student repeats the content that they had in their elementary grades

 

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2015/03/ ... rt-1/#more

[KittenMitten]

Formergotherdite, I am so sorry you had to go through that. I was never a fan of school, but I value my education beyond words. I can't imagine what it was like to realize the extent to which you were betrayed. I am also impressed, beyond words that you freed yourself and that you took back your life. It is an honor to share threads with you.

[Cleopatra7]

What I don't understand is how any parent could believe that any curriculum could possibly provide the equivalent of going to business school, pre-med, and law school. Just the little of the Wisdom booklets that we've seen on 19 Kids and Counting shows that they're completely worthless even as Sunday school books. I think that ATI parents wanted to believe this was true despite all evidence to the contrary.

[KittenMitten]

What I don't understand is how any parent could believe that any curriculum could possibly provide the equivalent of going to business school, pre-med, and law school. Just the little of the Wisdom booklets that we've seen on 19 Kids and Counting shows that they're completely worthless even as Sunday school books. I think that ATI parents wanted to believe this was true despite all evidence to the contrary.

Well, I'm guessing the parents were not thinking, but following blindly. Their trust of Gothard was total. To question was a sin. I think if you continued questioning you would be shunned.

Edit: riffles.

[Cleopatra7]

Well, I'm guessing the parents were not thinking, but following blindly. Their trust of Gothard was total. To question was a sin. I think if you continued questioning you would be shunned.

Edit: riffles.

I guess another question I have is that if Gothardites are supposed to be separate and not be concerned with "the wisdom of the world," then why would ATI parents even care if the Wisdom Bookets supposed provided an education in pre-law, business, and medicine? The types of people who tend to gravitate towards ATI seem to be anti-intellectual and fearful and wouldn't encourage their kids to go to college for pre-law, business, or medicine anyway. Was Gothard thinking that maybe he could have unaccredited Gothard programs in these fields to create "Christian" alternatives to the educated professions? This entire subculture is so foreign to me that I really want to understand the logic (if any) behind it. Maybe there was no logic and ATI was just intended to be a scam from the beginning (as well as a place for Gothard to get victims for his various fetishes).

[Justme]

What a snake oil salesman!

[GenerationCedarchip]

What I don't understand is how any parent could believe that any curriculum could possibly provide the equivalent of going to business school, pre-med, and law school. Just the little of the Wisdom booklets that we've seen on 19 Kids and Counting shows that they're completely worthless even as Sunday school books. I think that ATI parents wanted to believe this was true despite all evidence to the contrary.

ATI wasn't as big in my corner of fundie-dom (not that VF was all that much better) but as an adult, I've known some folks who went pretty far down that rabbit hole. From the things I hear them say, I think there's great deal of wanting to believe that the booklets would provide such a great education. In addition, I get the impression that Gothard trots out all the most financially successful acolytes to show off to the prospective buyers, and at least some of the folks I know end up completely believing that ATI is what allowed these families to join the ranks of the upper middle class.

[BrownieMomma]

formergothardite, thanks for posting. I cannot even really imagine what it must have been like to grow up in that.

Truly hope there is a special place in hell for Bill Gothard and every person who led others astray.

[LovelyLuna]

very interesting read. the 8 year thing... its an 8th grade education like the Amish. thank you for sharing.

[micatite]

What a snake oil salesman!

That's the problem so very often with religion (especially fringe religion). Too often it's, "Check your brain at the door, folks. Don't ask questions. Have faith. Sit down, you're rockin' the boat."

[Jana814]

Thanks for this!! I really wonder how some of these people get into this group.

[nokidsmom]

A childhood that ought to have been beautiful and sweet, was instead crushed with the harsh, unforgiving burden of living under the hundreds of ATI rules. We regret that as adults we have stunted relationships with our parents who seem incapable of ever just loving us, but instead always finding something in our lives to judge and condemn.

This is the truth and I wished it came through in the Duggar and Bates shows. Being raised ATI, especially as deep into ATI as those families are, is not fun.

I really wish it came through in the shows too. As a non ATI person who was raised with some pretty strict rules, I can't imagine having to be a child in an ATI home. I don't believe for a minute that the Bates/Duggar famiies' lives is all wholesome sunshine and roses that the shows make it out to be. Really wish fans would wake up to the fact that what they see is highly edited and selective. The kids in both families might love their parents but there's the judgemental / fear element present in the relationships that carries over into adulthood.

[formergothardite]

IMO Gothard attracts two types of people. There are the controlling parents who are often well educated but love the power Gothard gives them over their children. Then there are the people who experienced some sort of life problem and Gothard seems to be the answer. That is what happened with my parents. They were going through a bad time and Gothard seemed to have the answers. And once you get drawn into ATI, it is hard to get out. My mom, even now, can't explain why they stayed in so long. They realized right away that the curriculum was shit so they did use a real curriculum to teach us. They wanted us to go to college and have careers, so why did they stay in ATI? I don't know, except that it is a cult and cults are hard to leave.

[ariel9]

One parallels that I noticed is with the analogies. I forgot if it was the FLDS or the Amish who did this but they believed in speaking in analogies or what members called double speech. In their opinion it made them feel smart and was a good way to dodge questions from people like law enforcement.

Also I could see how it would be easy to get sucked in. People want to repeat methods that they think are good and if they see a family with what seems to be mature well behaved kids then they want to recreate those methods.

[Georgiana]

This is why I hold out hope for a Josh Duggar tell all once the TLC money dries up.

Josh had dreams and ambitions. He was sold (via his parents) a bill that told him that this method of schooling would TOTALLY prepare him for those dreams and ambitions. He was vivacious. Hopeful. And punch-drunk on kool-aid. This is the Josh Duggar of the early seasons who earned the nickname Smuggar. He was SO CONVINCED his parents' way and his was right and that it would TOTALLY pan out for him. In his insular community, this was never or rarely challenged. Man, remember the Josh of the specials and the early seasons? The guy with dreams, ambitions and hobbies? The confident eldest child who was totally going to do things and had no question of his own success?

Then he got to the real world. Failed as a car salesman. Got to DC and realized that due to his education, he was completely unprepared for the jobs he wanted, his career prospects were low, and his dreams were far off. Josh has been drastically humbled, and seems to realize that he has been cheated out of the life he dreamed of.

Now, he seems depressed and disillusioned. He seems bitter over the nice weddings and homes his sisters get while his own was a cheap affair. He goes along with TLC largely I think because he has realized that it's really the only way he has right now to support his family.

My hope is that when the TLC money dries up, Josh will talk about all this. Talk about how his parents' choices basically took his dreams away. Talk about how without the show, he's trapped and unqualified for the jobs that would support his family. Because Josh is what happens with ATI: you take smart kids with dreams, and you crush them.

[nokidsmom]

This is why I hold out hope for a Josh Duggar tell all once the TLC money dries up.

Josh had dreams and ambitions. He was sold (via his parents) a bill that told him that this method of schooling would TOTALLY prepare him for those dreams and ambitions. He was vivacious. Hopeful. And punch-drunk on kool-aid. This is the Josh Duggar of the early seasons who earned the nickname Smuggar. He was SO CONVINCED his parents' way and his was right and that it would TOTALLY pan out for him. In his insular community, this was never or rarely challenged. Man, remember the Josh of the specials and the early seasons? The guy with dreams, ambitions and hobbies? The confident eldest child who was totally going to do things and had no question of his own success?

Then he got to the real world. Failed as a car salesman. Got to DC and realized that due to his education, he was completely unprepared for the jobs he wanted, his career prospects were low, and his dreams were far off. Josh has been drastically humbled, and seems to realize that he has been cheated out of the life he dreamed of.

Now, he seems depressed and disillusioned. He seems bitter over the nice weddings and homes his sisters get while his own was a cheap affair. He goes along with TLC largely I think because he has realized that it's really the only way he has right now to support his family.

My hope is that when the TLC money dries up, Josh will talk about all this. Talk about how his parents' choices basically took his dreams away. Talk about how without the show, he's trapped and unqualified for the jobs that would support his family. Because Josh is what happens with ATI: you take smart kids with dreams, and you crush them.

You know, since Josh has gone to DC and now seems rather disillusioned and humbled, I have actually started to feel bad for him. I did think that going to the FRC might be a wake up call for him in terms of seeing how qualified his colleagues would be in comparison to his own. If he wasn't the sole provider of his ever growing family and with a wife who seems hell bent to keep popping out babies for him to support it would not be too late for him to try to go to a real school and acquire a real education. But in his current situation he seems stuck. And I agree that part of his depression might be seeing the nicer deal his sisters got when they got married and acquired homes versus him.

[HoneyBunny]

Wha...??? I've been out of pocket since October. Josh Duggar has failed at FRC? Is depressed? I just checked their website and he's still on there with some inflated title.

I'd love to see Josh crumble professionally ('cause he's doing the devil's work!) but wouldn't wish depression on anyone. A bit of public comeuppance is all I'm looking for. Has it happened?

[nomoxian]

Wha...??? I've been out of pocket since October. Josh Duggar has failed at FRC? Is depressed? I just checked their website and he's still on there with some inflated title.

I wouldn't say he's failed, but that's only because the purpose of his job is to increase visibility of the organization due to his "celebrity" status. He certainly wasn't hired due to his expertise gained while in University for Political Science or Business.

[FundieWatcher]

I wonder what that job consists of. Photo opts and press conferences?

[VelociRapture]

You know, since Josh has gone to DC and now seems rather disillusioned and humbled, I have actually started to feel bad for him. I did think that going to the FRC might be a wake up call for him in terms of seeing how qualified his colleagues would be in comparison to his own. If he wasn't the sole provider of his ever growing family and with a wife who seems hell bent to keep popping out babies for him to support it would not be too late for him to try to go to a real school and acquire a real education. But in his current situation he seems stuck. And I agree that part of his depression might be seeing the nicer deal his sisters got when they got married and acquired homes versus him.

A few things:

1. I don't think we can really say whether or not Josh has failed at his job with FRC. His only real responsibility is to bring attention to the group because of his name and his family's reality show. Considering he hasn't left or been let go, I would say it's premature to say he has failed.

2. I don't think anyone should be labeling him as depressed unless someone on this Forum is a licensed Therapist who has personally had sessions with Josh. He may present some symptoms of depression, but we can't know for sure because we aren't his Doctor (and this is coming from someone who has struggled with anxiety and depression since she was a toddler).

3. Maybe Josh will eventually become disillusioned with everything and leave. Maybe he'll be disillusioned and stay. My personal thought is that he realizes something is wrong, but that he feels its a personal failing on his part for not accepting God's will.

4. I completely agree about what ATI does to kids though. There is no doubt in my mind that these kids could have done great things in life had they been born to different parents - parents who loved, encouraged, and properly educated them.

I agree that Josh in particular does seem to have really been cheated out of a decent life - as the eldest he was the one who suffered in obscurity the longest, may have been subject to a much more strict upbringing than his younger siblings, and wound up being married off at the ripe age of 20. His wife has no intentions of working outside the home and wants as many children as possible - and considering they're both a few years from 30 and already on kid 4, that could be a good amount.

Now compare to Jill (and I picked Jill because Jessa married a man-boy and it wouldn't be an adequate comparison). Jill had the opportunity to live in the big house with her family. She had access to more food than Josh did when she was a teenager, thanks to the show. She was given the chance to pursue her interest in lay midwifery (regardless of whether she intends to finish her certification or not), "wrote" a book with her sisters, and has gone on trips around the world. Despite her shoddy education and being pushed into raising her siblings, Jill married a well-educated young man with a real job and non-God centered interests (like basketball). They live in a beautiful home, thanks to her parents, and are able to afford a comfortable lifestyle. By the time she is 24, she will have exactly one child to care for.

I like Jill a lot. She has a loving personality and always seems so eager to try new things. And I give her credit for doing the best she could to care for her buddy group - the fact that she still has them over now and they seem to really love her says a lot about her as a person. Realistically speaking though, she (and the other kids) have been given an easier life than Josh in many ways.

[Delilah]

This is why I hold out hope for a Josh Duggar tell all once the TLC money dries up.

I don't know much about the Duggars, but wouldn't he be shunned by the family if he ever wrote (or ghost wrote) a tell all book?

It would be wonderful though if someone would expose the poor quality of the curriculum being used. He has the celebrity status in that community to draw attention to the fraud and lies. It takes a strong person to be a whistle blower. Is he strong enough?

Cynthia Jeub has gone public about the poor quality of her homeschooling experience. She was taught mostly public speaking/debate and homemaking. She is now trying to self-educate so she can return to college and be successful in college level math and science classes. She lost a lot of her family when she began speaking up, but at least she has some supportive family on the outside, so she's not totally alone in the world.

.

[Georgiana]

To clarify, I never said Josh failed at the FRC. I said he failed as a used car salesman, and I think we can all agree that the car lot was a bust. However, that was still a major failure for someone who used to be a sort of "golden boy". I think the FRC and working in DC in general opened Josh's eyes to how unqualified he is for the jobs he wanted, regardless of his success level in his current position.

Also, I said he seemed depressed, which to me he does. I never tried to diagnose Josh with anything, just made a comment on his behavior. I don't think it's unfair of people who are not therapists to come up to someone and say "You've seemed depressed lately, are you OK?". They aren't diagnosing anyone either, just making a comment that a person has been acting down or not like themselves recently.

If I worded things poorly, I apologize :) Wednesdays are the days when I am too zonked to be a decent communicator.

[BrownieMomma]

Why do you think Josh failed as a used car salesman? I remember the episodes where he and Jim Bob bought some restaurant to turn into a bigger lot, when he left for DC he turned the business over to some other guy who had been working with him.

Josh didn't go to DC, DC came to him. I am not wholly convinced Josh is suffering massive insecurity due to his lack of formal education. There are only two people listed on FRC website, maybe they have other staff that are not listed but just as easily not much more than a secretary/admin. Josh's immediate, day-to-day surroundings might not include very many people, he may not be feeling an inferiority vibe at all. He is, after, the leader of the Duggar children. *insert eyeroll

I look at pictures posted here on FJ and I don't see what other people agree they are seeing. Yes, sometimes Josh looks tired, but I don't think that means much. He does work a full-time job, film 19kac, travel for FRC, and has a growing family at home of which he is the sole support.

I wonder what kind of homeschool materials they have at their home for Mac.. ATI or not.

[silverspoons]

Why do you think Josh failed as a used car salesman? I remember the episodes where he and Jim Bob bought some restaurant to turn into a bigger lot, when he left for DC he turned the business over to some other guy who had been working with him.

I wonder what kind of homeschool materials they have at their home for Mac.. ATI or not.

I think the car lot especially after it expanded was not profitable to support a large family. If Josh had stayed at the first small lot and ran it himself with Anna's part time help, it would have been fine. Not millionaires but enough to pay the bills. I think Jim Bob wanted a bigger lot and with that came hiring staff, not family to run the lot on an everyday basis. When they traveled for Santorum's campaign Josh was rarely present at the lot. With the low margin inventory there was no way they could afford to keep the 5-6 people paid, workers comp., insurance etc. Also if the car lot was doing fine when Josh left for DC, JB would have either kept it himself or had another son assigned to it. JB wouldn't give up or sell a a positive cash flow business.

As for homeschool, I hope Anna has met some other homeschooling moms and is introduced to new programs and materials. If she hasn't I fear she will revert to the only system she knows which is ATI. I see visions of her and Priscilla teaching those wisdom booklets.

[BrownieMomma]

I think the car lot especially after it expanded was not profitable to support a large family. If Josh had stayed at the first small lot and ran it himself with Anna's part time help, it would have been fine. Not millionaires but enough to pay the bills. I think Jim Bob wanted a bigger lot and with that came hiring staff, not family to run the lot on an everyday basis. When they traveled for Santorum's campaign Josh was rarely present at the lot. With the low margin inventory there was no way they could afford to keep the 5-6 people paid, workers comp., insurance etc. Also if the car lot was doing fine when Josh left for DC, JB would have either kept it himself or had another son assigned to it. JB wouldn't give up or sell a a positive cash flow business.

As for homeschool, I hope Anna has met some other homeschooling moms and is introduced to new programs and materials. If she hasn't I fear she will revert to the only system she knows which is ATI. I see visions of her and Priscilla teaching those wisdom booklets.

I don't agree with your assessment of Josh's car lots. I don't know if moving to a bigger lot was driven by JB or necessity. Remember, these are the Duggars, famous homefolks in NWA, plenty of people probably went to Josh because of the family fame.

Don't know where 5-6 employees comes from, I remember Josh having that other couple work with (for?) him but can you verify he had that many employees?

Most businesses that small would not be offering benefits like insurance, and any sales people probably on commission. Worker comp is most likely a state requirement. Josh didn't even have someone hired to answer the phones.

JB wouldn't run that car lot himself. He was big TLC star by that point. After Josh is JD, does JD strike you as a used car salesman? He worked with Josh for the towing part of it, but I can't see JD selling cars. The next boy was Joseph, who turned 18 a few months before the dealership was sold - hardly a candidate to take over a car lot and again, Joseph does not strike me as someone who could sell used cars. Any boy younger than Joseph was a minor so clearly off-limits.

The business was sold to Dobbs Motor Company. People sell profitable businesses all the time, just because it was sold to DMC does not mean it failed to turn a profit.

duggarfamilyblog.com/2013/06/duggar-automotive-sold.html

IMO it is safe to say Josh probably fared pretty well with his used car business simply because Duggar name implies honest Christian and I bet there are leghumpers a'plenty in NWA who would feel that God led them to buy a car from Josh Duggar.