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Apostolic/Pentecostals


bluehydrangea

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The Apostolics in my area are Apostolic Christians, or referred to as AC's. They are not affiliated with the Pentecostals. The women wear skirts, their hair long and kept up in a bun or similiar, no makeup and no jewelry, not even wedding bands. Most women stay home with their children, though many do not. Television is usually not permitted (depends on each individual church), but some movies are ok. My childhood babysitter was AC and I remember many rainy or cold afternoons spent in the basement family room watching Cinderella or other Disney movies. The women that are members also practice head covering, but it is in the form of a small, hair colored doiley held on with bobby pins. They're really very pretty.

They also don't usually disown their children, and they aren't so insular. My husband and I have several friends who belong to the AC church, ranging from members in good standing, to some who were raised in the church but no longer attend as adults. And their parents didn't lose their minds over it. I'm sure they wish they'd return, but the kids are still invited to Christmas dinner.

They also operate several nursing homes, a home for the developmentally disabled in Morton, IL, and a childrens home in Indiana.

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MMmm that's not what I meant. I see churches named Apostolic Church or Apostolic Lighthouse but not many that call themselves apostolic. I don't know how it is related to Pentecostal, which is common around here.

To the bold- I agree and that is what I said (or tried to say!) - I don't know how it is related to the protestant churches only that they don't use it the same way Catholics/Orthodox do.

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Holy Roller is a derogatory term, as I've heard it, for those who speak in tongues. This also has a reference to rolling in the aisles, which I don't know of any church that has actually done that but the term persists.

It's probably still around in some Pentacostal/breakaway churches. The closest thing I can think of is the Praise Break in some black churches.

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Speaking in tongues is believed to be the gift of spontaneously speaking other languages to Pentecostals. Other denominations of Christianity regard it as weird at best, and often as heresy.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia

This is an interesting Christian criticism of the practice.

http://www.speaking-in-tongues.net/

Not just other languages but speaking a non earthly language - either privately between you and God during praise, or publicly as either praise or prophecy. I think it's a lot more common/practiced than people think.

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Oh yes, that might be an interesting or important distinction. Speaking in tongues, as practiced in the I've been recently attending, is not speaking in other known languages. It is a special language between you and God, and even you don't know the meaning of what you are saying or doing.

Sometimes, when everyone is down front, as the church is small enough that someone goes down front, everyone goes, I hear someone and I swear it is some kind of howling/barking. One woman does the same thing every time, it's like she is chattering her teeth and saying tuh-tuh-tuh over and over.

Occasionally you will hear a recognizable word like Jesus or a phrase like love you Lord.

I will say, the nice thing about the way it happens at my church, like if I go down front to be prayed over, other women will gather round, hold your arms up by the elbows, rub your shoulders or back, or put an arm around your waist. It is physically warm and supportive.

Just... a lot of pressure to get the Holy Ghost, kwim?

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Most of the time (well, all of the time if you ask me) speaking in tongues is not done in an earthly language, but that's kind of what it's supposed to be. That's how it was in Acts, and you still hear lots of (secondhand) stories where someone was speaking in tongues in church and a non-English speaker walked in and was shocked to hear the speaker speaking their native language, or a mission group suddenly started speaking in the language of the people to whom they were preaching.

I never heard it actually sound like a real language, though. Usually everyone has a few favored sounds (like "sha-la-la") that they repeat over and over and embellish. I used to speak in tongues, or at least try to, since I had "received the Holy Spirit" as a kid, but deep down I always felt like I was just uttering nonsense syllables.

If someone speaks in tongues in church, as opposed to in private prayer, it is supposed to be followed by a translation (where someone else is inspired to repeat the message in English), but in my experience that doesn't always happen.

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Most of the time (well, all of the time if you ask me) speaking in tongues is not done in an earthly language, but that's kind of what it's supposed to be. That's how it was in Acts, and you still hear lots of (secondhand) stories where someone was speaking in tongues in church and a non-English speaker walked in and was shocked to hear the speaker speaking their native language, or a mission group suddenly started speaking in the language of the people to whom they were preaching.

I never heard it actually sound like a real language, though. Usually everyone has a few favored sounds (like "sha-la-la") that they repeat over and over and embellish. I used to speak in tongues, or at least try to, since I had "received the Holy Spirit" as a kid, but deep down I always felt like I was just uttering nonsense syllables.

If someone speaks in tongues in church, as opposed to in private prayer, it is supposed to be followed by a translation (where someone else is inspired to repeat the message in English), but in my experience that doesn't always happen.

This is how I always understood it, the Apostles were speaking in non-native languages, or in a language where different hearers heard in their own language, but not in a language that no one understood.

And I agree, that is what I'd always read and understood, that if someone speaks in tongues at church, someone else interprets. Never seen that happen in the two tongue-speaking churches I've attended.

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This is my first post here at FJ! Woo! I've been reading for ages though. :)

I was raised in the United Pentecostal movement. Apostolic, Holiness, UPC are all terms that I identified with. I left about 9 years ago at the age of 27 and my husband followed about 6 months later. I'll share and give any insight that I can.

The UPCI (United Pentecostal Church International) is quite a large organization with a church in nearly every city/town at least in the midwest and south where I have lived. They have broad rules put down from the superintendent but each pastor is then given leeway to impose more rules/standards as they see fit for their congregation. It is all very legalistic but the degree is up to the pastor.

The pastor of the church that I was raised in was known as one of the strictest in the nation. Women could only wear skirts/dresses and they had to past your knee when you sat down. Sleeves had to be past your elbow. Necklines couldn't be lower than 2 fingerwidths below the collarbone. No jewelry at all (not even wedding bands). No makeup, not even grape chapstick. ;) No TV, movies, bowling, ball games, mixed company swimming, etc. Women are definitely not equal to men and are only allowed to work in certain professions like childcare, secretarial, etc. Our church had it's own school that used ACE (Accelerated Christian Education) curriculum which is a homeschool curriculum and therefore none of the teachers or administrators were licensed or accredited.

The biggest doctrine is their plan of salvation. It REQUIRES 3 steps. 1) Repentance -- basically confessing your wrong doings and asking for forgiveness from God. 2) Baptism -- fully in water in the name of Jesus. 3) Receiving the Holy Ghost as evidenced by speaking in tongues. Acts 2:38 is the scripture that they base this on. The other big difference in the UPC and other Christian religions is that they don't believe in the trinity. They believe that Jesus was God manifest in the flesh and the Holy Spirit is God's loving embrace. They believe that all 3 are one, not co-equals. It doesn't even really make sense to me and I used to debate it!

My church growing up definitely did the big alter services, running, dancing, rolling in the floor, having fits of laughter (they call it being drunk on the HG), etc. We also had big annual camp meetings and it was even crazier there. I'm talking 6 hour long services with people being dragged out to their dorms still "drunk."

I now attend a non-denominational Christian church and while they still have live band music, worship with the raising of hands and voices, etc, it is much more "normal" than UPCI. And we now believe that speaking in tongues is a gift of the spirit and not a requirement for salvation.

Feel free to ask any questions. I'll answer all that I can. :)

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Oh yes, that might be an interesting or important distinction. Speaking in tongues, as practiced in the I've been recently attending, is not speaking in other known languages. It is a special language between you and God, and even you don't know the meaning of what you are saying or doing.

Sometimes, when everyone is down front, as the church is small enough that someone goes down front, everyone goes, I hear someone and I swear it is some kind of howling/barking. One woman does the same thing every time, it's like she is chattering her teeth and saying tuh-tuh-tuh over and over.

Occasionally you will hear a recognizable word like Jesus or a phrase like love you Lord.

I will say, the nice thing about the way it happens at my church, like if I go down front to be prayed over, other women will gather round, hold your arms up by the elbows, rub your shoulders or back, or put an arm around your waist. It is physically warm and supportive.

Just... a lot of pressure to get the Holy Ghost, kwim?

Jocasta used to do this on Big Brother 16.

A close relative of mine went to a Pentacostal Holiness church for years. She was hoping and praying to receive the gift of speaking in tongues, but she never did (she stopped attending a year or two ago). If I recall correctly, only the pastor ever did it at her church. I attended a few services over the years, and it always went kind of like "oooh rah shandala ralalala"

Full disclosure: my loved one and I both had negative experiences in that church and I hope my cynicism hasn't come through in this comment. I apologize if it has.

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It's hard to describe speaking in tongues. Here are some examples and some info:

[bBvideo 560,340:2ld1no8l]

[/bBvideo]

[bBvideo 560,340:2ld1no8l]

[/bBvideo]

Robert Tilton does it in a very conversational manner:

[bBvideo 560,340:2ld1no8l]

[/bBvideo]

I have no idea what any of these people believe, or whether they are from Pentecostal churches. These were just things that came up about speaking in tongues.

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Brownie mama and cstrom, are/were you encouraged to bring visitors to church/to convert and proselytize to others? Are there missionaries?

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Brownie mama and cstrom, are/were you encouraged to bring visitors to church/to convert and proselytize to others? Are there missionaries?

From the pulpit, we have been occasionally asked to bring a visitor. Privately, it was suggested to be selective and to specifically not ask a certain person from the workplace.

No missionaries.

The pastor travels a lot to meetings but I've been to two meetings and the people who attend are all from other churches.

They had VBS for the first time last summer but it was for church kids only, outside kids were not invited.

The pastor likes to frequently say that some churches in our town are for social status but not this church. You get no social status from going there.

Very insular, coming from an SBC background the lack of reaching out and missions feels weird.

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If someone really believes that you are going to Hell if you do not share their beliefs, I think proselytizing is completely justifiable. It's annoying, but the problem is the belief in Hell, not the act of proselytizing. If you really believed someone was about to be tortured for eternity, you would try to save them through any means necessary. I don't know any Christians who actually live like they truly believe this, though

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Brownie mama and cstrom, are/were you encouraged to bring visitors to church/to convert and proselytize to others? Are there missionaries?

Absolutely. "Soul Winning" as they call it, is one of the main purposes of the church. We had weekly "outreach" where we would go door to door passing out tracts and inviting people to church. We were always encouraged to bring people and try to get them saved. There were even contests for who could bring the most visitors.

There is a huge missionary network within the UPCI. Churches state-side were expected to financially support these foreign missionaries. Pastors would often also take missions trips to visit with the missionaries and put on "revivals" for them. Brand new churches in the US are also called "Home Missions" as they missionaries going into new towns and setting up congregations.

Here is the website for the UPCI: http://www.upci.org/ You'll find lots of info there.

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It's probably still around in some Pentacostal/breakaway churches. The closest thing I can think of is the Praise Break in some black churches.

I think we'd be surprised at how much true 'holy rolling" aka slayed in the spirit, drunk in the spirit, etc goes on. There are quite a few religious videos of people dancing in the aisles then ending up twitching on the floor....

Not long ago, I saw what I considered to be on of the weirdest things ever on a facebook post. I can't find it again, and it was in a private group, but basically it was a variety of people working themselves into a frenzy to a heavy bass and drum beat prepping to handle snakes. It made me look for other religious frenzy videos.

This is an oldie but a goodie of Kenneth Hagin and Kenneth Copeland being drunk in the spirit....

[bBvideo 560,340:3ehg7yaw]

[/bBvideo]

It looks like the leaders fake it and the others follow and I suspect some are swept up in the emotional moment....

A few examples of Benny Hinn's "holy rollers" with added music that is either very appropriate or very inappropriate!

[bBvideo 560,340:3ehg7yaw]

[/bBvideo]

I think ABC News did a good review of how Benny Hinn preps his audience for the big finale of the crowd falling backward...

And this one is similar to the one I saw with the modern snake handlers except the more modern version had louder music with a faster, heavier drum beat and the women (who were dressed amazingly similar to the women in this 70s video) were dancing more violently than the women in this video, I suspect to work themselves up to handling the snakes.

[bBvideo 560,340:3ehg7yaw]

[/bBvideo]

There are many more videos of small and large churches doing versions of this. I sort of don't mind the smaller group videos I see-- I would never be comfortable with that kind of "worship" but I suspect it offers some bit of emotional release for people who may need it. (after seeing one video, I told my husband I was glad I got my orgasms at home and didn't have to have them publicly at church) but the ones where Hinn and the now dead, I think Hagin and the still alive Copeland are involved make me think many of the attendees are a flock to be fleeced.

I view it as emotionally based and rather human / feelings focused. I don't see much about God going on in these moments, but maybe I just don't understand what is happening. (Oddly , I"m content with that, as I know myself and would never want to particpate in anything like this.)

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Being slain in the Spirit counts as holy rolling? I used to see that all the time. I remember going to a kids' service at a Copeland convention (my parents were big fans) and seeing hundreds of children be slain in the spirit after they went up for prayer. My brother and I were too shy to go up and I remember sitting there, just the two of us, while hundreds of kids were laying on the floor in front of us. That was memorable just in its magnitude, but seeing people slain in the spirit was nothing unusual.

Actually, the first moment I can remember when I realized that I couldn't trust everything said in church was when I was about 5 and my parents sent me to the front of the church at a healing service to be prayed over (I don't recall why). Everyone else fell over, slain in the spirit, as soon as they had been prayed over, but when it came to be my turn it didn't happen. Instead the designated catcher pulled me down to the ground and placed the cloth over my face. It really made an impact on me because I realized that not everything I was seeing had supernatural explanations.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:
I was actually watching a Louis Theroux documentary once about fundamentalist Christians in America and I briefly saw my grandfather being slain in the spirit at a healing service. It was very weird, as I didn't expect to see a family member while watchcing a documentary.
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I'm trying to wrap my head around this, so I've got some more stupid/basic questions.

Is this like some sort of mass hysteria?

Is it similar to how teen girls act at boy band concerts, or how some people act at sports games? Sort of getting caught up in the excitement and feeling that it's socially acceptable and encouraged to really let go?

I also remember once going on stage for a hypnotist show. I know what was going on, but in the moment you sort of go along with the suggestions without thinking about how it looks. Is it like that at all?

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I'm trying to wrap my head around this, so I've got some more stupid/basic questions.

Is this like some sort of mass hysteria?

Is it similar to how teen girls act at boy band concerts, or how some people act at sports games? Sort of getting caught up in the excitement and feeling that it's socially acceptable and encouraged to really let go?

I also remember once going on stage for a hypnotist show. I know what was going on, but in the moment you sort of go along with the suggestions without thinking about how it looks. Is it like that at all?

This documentary on Benny Hinn discusses it

Miracle workers such as Benny Hinn are followed and interviewed in this American Undercover documentary. It questions if faith and prayer can heal. This documentary is a very well-researched and in-depth look at the world of televangelists and "faith-healers". It takes a unique approach in that there is equal time given to a breakdown of the psychological, neurological, sociological, and other scientific gimmicks used by these vampires and the business end of it that makes swindling millions such a lucrative business.

The viewer is taken from "crusades" in America to Europe to Africa, witnessing heartbreaking stories that would make the hardest heart melt with compassion. To see people who are terminally ill, crippled, or have family members in need of a miracle open their checkbooks or take out their credit cards for donations in the thousands (one family of recent converts from Hinduism gave $2,000 in the hopes their son's brain tumour would be healed. He died nine months later) is as heart-wrenching a moment of real drama as one is likely to see for a long time. The answers these frauds give to the documentarian's questions, which are quite good and well put, always revert back to "one must have faith, or this shall not work".

topdocumentaryfilms.com/question-of-miracles-faith-healing/

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Being slain in the Spirit counts as holy rolling?

I think the laying on the floor and rolling back and forth or twitching is what coined the term.

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This reminds me of something that happened in college. The church I went to was not charismatic, but some of the people who went there came from that background. I was at a Bible study for college students and we were making timelines of important life events, for some reason. One of the guys was sharing his and said something like "at age X, that was the first time I faked being slain in the spirit." I had never seen anyone "slain in the spirit" and thought what he said was pretty funny. I was later relaying the story to my roommate who rolled her eyes and said "ugh, who HASN'T done that??" My other roommate and I were like "what?!? You have to tell us more about this!" Apparently, her church in high school had a revival that never ended and everyone was being "slain in the spirit" one night and she totally faked it. Makes me wonder what else is faked...

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I'm trying to wrap my head around this, so I've got some more stupid/basic questions.

Is this like some sort of mass hysteria?

Is it similar to how teen girls act at boy band concerts, or how some people act at sports games? Sort of getting caught up in the excitement and feeling that it's socially acceptable and encouraged to really let go?

I also remember once going on stage for a hypnotist show. I know what was going on, but in the moment you sort of go along with the suggestions without thinking about how it looks. Is it like that at all?

Speaking strictly of my recent experience at the neo-Pentecostal church - I have often been at church and thought of what I'd learned in college about mob mentality.

There is an air of encouragement and expectation for people to go down front. The pastor does not directly say "come down front at this time" but he often talks about it during sermons, the how when and why of it. Usually while music is playing, someone will head down front and then nearly everyone in the building goes down as well.

This is encouraged by songs being played for long amount of time, if a song has three verses and a chorus, you will hear three sets of verses and at least four or five extra choruses. A three minute song can go on for more than ten minutes.

This is one time in life that there is soundtrack lol. As long as people are down front, someone will keep playing the piano and/or singing. Sometimes all the singers want to go down front, so kids will go on the platform, pick up a mic, and take over.

At this church, getting the Holy Ghost is the important thing bar nothing. People go down to be prayed over in order to receive the Holy Ghost and speak in tongues. IME this means you are front and center of the church, people are pressing on you from all sides, all in love ofc, men lay hands on the heads of men and women while women hold up arms, place hands on shoulders or waist, rub backs.. only on other women.

One or two might be singing along with the song, several are speaking in tongues, and someone is shouting in your ear how much Jesus loves you, how precious you are to Jesus, to let go and feel the Spirit, relax your mind and let worries go, let the Holy Spirit flow into you and speak through you.

So, yes, to me, this definitely influenced by group behavior. This is also a small church, the highest attendance at any one service was around 100 but usually about 50 people including kids ranging from teen to newborn.

Oh, the kids go down front too, they often stand by people other than their parents, I think that is sweet to see how comfortable they are with the other adults. The kids do not pray in tongues or really do anything, but they are in the group.

A few times, during dancing, which is sort of a jig type movement, one or two of the women have gotten drunk in the Spirit. This mirrors the kind of drunken behavior I had seen when I was a college student and at a club or party. Loud laughing, stumbling around, held up by friends, falling to her knees... one time I was down front, one woman hooked her arm through mine and started a slow dancey kind of movement. Another woman came up and took my other arm and we ended up circling in place. I tripped and fell foward on one knee, the first woman gleefully started shrieking that I was drunk in the Spirit but I wasn't. I was just clumsy.

It is not just socially acceptable, it is socially expected. This particular church is pretty tame, I didn't know men ran top speed around the sanctuary until I went to a large meeting at a metropolitan area church. I still never saw anyone actually lay on the floor. From time to time, someone would testify and lament that we don't let go enough but not much changed.

I received the gift about two months after I started going. I was already a mature, lifelong Christian. Right now, if I close my eyes and mentally go to that place, I can speak in tongues. It doesn't feel forced but I am pretty sure that it's not the Holy Spirit but instead a learned behavior, much like learning relaxation techniques.

Most people tend to be loud, the volume can get quite high. I, however, always speak like a quiet conversation. I know this frustrated a couple of the ladies, as they continued to exhort me to REALLY LET GO but alas, it's still more of a conversation rather than waving my hands in the air like I just don't care.

I think the people at this church are sincere in what in they believe about the Holy Ghost. I just do not agree with their conclusions.

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I'm trying to wrap my head around this, so I've got some more stupid/basic questions.

Is this like some sort of mass hysteria?

Is it similar to how teen girls act at boy band concerts, or how some people act at sports games? Sort of getting caught up in the excitement and feeling that it's socially acceptable and encouraged to really let go?

I also remember once going on stage for a hypnotist show. I know what was going on, but in the moment you sort of go along with the suggestions without thinking about how it looks. Is it like that at all?

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:
I had an experience that makes me think you're on the right track, 2xx1xy1JD. I attended an independent, nondenominational, store-front 'bible church' in the mid-nineties (with another loved one, I try to avoid going to services with loved ones now, lol) with only about fifteen or twenty members. At one point I went to the front for prayer and the pastor placed his hand on my forehead and began to pray and speak in tongues. It was a relatively new experience for me and I was uncomfortable, as my childhood denomination didn't practice this way. Also because I'm a very private person and don't like all eyes on me, which they very much were. He prayed that he could feel me resisting and prayed that Jesus would 'remove childhood hurts' that were preventing me from [i don't remember what, exactly]. He had his hand on my forehead the whole time, and other churchgoers were touching me, too, on my arms and shoulders. Finally he asked if I was ready and willing to be slain in the spirit and he pushed against my forehead, but I refused to go down. Maybe this is when he started going on about my resistance, hehe. The whole thing for me was quite unnerving.

The sum of my religious experiences--not any one experience, mind you--has left me agnostic bordering on atheism, but that's for another thread! :)

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JGUFmY9gIE

This documentary is about how faith healers can fool people, and it was absolutely fascinating to me. They took a guy and taught him how to act like an evangelist, faith healings and spirit slayings and all. Through the power of suggestion he actually managed to make people think they had been healed, and at one point made a group of people fall down. I felt very conflicted about how they had to lie to people to carry out their project, but I do think it is important to be aware of these tactics.

I do think most people who are being slain in the spirit and speaking in tongues and such are completely sincere about it, not intentionally faking it. I think the power of suggestion and the mass hysteria phenomenon is just very powerful.

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{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:
Thinking back some more on my experience. I think that church said baptized in the spirit, not slain. And I don't think there was any fraud going on in that tiny church, not even when the preacher pushed me. Everyone was very sincere, and caught up in the moment. Now Benny Hinn, on the other hand... :liar:
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