Bringing Up Bates & Bates Family Doings: Part 2

[19 cats and counting]

It's possible that the parties are interested in each other but waiting for one or both parties to get in a more "mature" place either in terms of finances/career or just age before officially courting. Courtship is basically pre-engagement, so they could be in the "getting to know you" stage since getting to know someone as a potential mate is different than knowing them as a friend. Also, the Duggars seem to prefer to wait until the kids are slightly older to court/marry (look at all the flack they get for Ben!), and while the Bates let Alyssa marry young, now that they are back in the spotlight, they may be less keen on teenage marriages as well.

Also, the Duggars tend to keep courtships secret until they are pretty sure about them (they tried to lie about Jill's but a younger spilled the beans), so it could be that as well.

Basically, there are a few situations where Tori could be involved with a Duggar that wouldn't make Michelle's statement technically a lie or could be why she would hide it.

I think the difference between Alyssa and Ben is their gender (both were 19 at marriage). In fundie circles, nobody is expecting Alyssa to provide for a large family. She married a man 5 years older that already had an established job (not sure about home). The guy repairs air conditioners in Florida. I doubt business is very slow given what he does.

When the TLC money runs dry or they spend it all, Ben will be expected to provide for Jessa (a homeschooling SAHM) and their brood. The guy has little education and his skills are unknown. As far as we know, he's not doing something to learn new skills (ie education or learning a trade). Being your FIL's lawn boy will not feed your wife and children. Derick and Josh both had job descriptions other than 'reality TV star."

[Georgiana]

I think the difference between Alyssa and Ben is their gender (both were 19 at marriage). In fundie circles, nobody is expecting Alyssa to provide for a large family. She married a man 5 years older that already had an established job (not sure about home). The guy repairs air conditioners in Florida. I doubt business is very slow given what he does.

When the TLC money runs dry or they spend it all, Ben will be expected to provide for Jessa (a homeschooling SAHM) and their brood. The guy has little education and his skills are unknown. As far as we know, he's not doing something to learn new skills (ie education or learning a trade). Being your FIL's lawn boy will not feed your wife and children. Derick and Josh both had job descriptions other than 'reality TV star."

Well, I think Alyssa was/is far more mature than Ben as well. Ironically, she still has a more respectable resume than he does (she worked at a flower shop for a while).

However, 18/19 is very young to be married in most of the country, so I think the Bates/Duggars may try to shy away from young courtships since too many teenage marriages may start to look bad on the families. It's like how they didn't announce Alyssa's pregnancy until she turned 20.

There's just a knee-jerk reaction that people have when they see teenagers getting married/having babies that isn't there if you just wait until they turn 20.

[justmy2cents]

Well, I think Alyssa was/is far more mature than Ben as well. Ironically, she still has a more respectable resume than he does (she worked at a flower shop for a while).

However, 18/19 is very young to be married in most of the country, so I think the Bates/Duggars may try to shy away from young courtships since too many teenage marriages may start to look bad on the families. It's like how they didn't announce Alyssa's pregnancy until she turned 20.

There's just a knee-jerk reaction that people have when they see teenagers getting married/having babies that isn't there if you just wait until they turn 20.

Joseph turned 20 recently and Tori is 19 so probably old enough in their circle. Having said that I don't know if he would court before finishing his degree, which some people think could be only a 2 year degree. Them being in a getting to know you stage is plausible, and as always time will tell. Hopefully we'll find out before engagement. :lol:

[nelliebelle1197]

I looked so much like one of my older sisters until I was 5 that the only way we can tell who it is if their is an identical picture of my other sister (they're fraternal twins). There was one which we were sure was me for years until we found the identical picture while moving my grandparents. There is 7 years between us but now that I'm in my late 20's and she her early 30's people think I'm her twin.

None of the baby pictures looked that much alike and they could not even tell the genders of a couple of the babies.

[zz22zz]

It was definitely Tori who the boys said was interested, I rewound to check. And she held her paddle neutral as to yes or no on that question. I took it to mean she was interested in, but not courting, a Duggar.

I also got a vibe from Nathan that he is interested in a Duggar. Though that could be he is just close with JD or Joe, whomever Tori likes, and he knows they like her too. Also I may be crazy but the last couple of episodes Nathan's lisp was A LOT less pronounced than the first two episodes, maybe he noticed it when he watched footage of the show or it was pointed out to him. He is growing on me and I could kinda see him with Jinger now. He just had a excitement when they were talking Duggar Bates courtship and he is the one who said a Duggar Bates courtship will definitely happen at the end of that question. His confidence even caught Lawson's attention (who should have as much inside info as Nathan if Joseph (JD possibly) likes Tori) and Nathan looked really happy.

I don't think Carlin is interested in any Duggar because she made statements that sounded like JD...that she is hoping and interested but there 'just ain't no special someone that God has had cross her path' which is annoying her (plus her sisters were gently teasing her about having no prospects)...and yes their grammar was really, really, really poor during the Q and A episode. Lots of ain'ts and 'that just make no sense'....and it was all of them doing it this time. Even Erin...

And we learned for those without UP that there is NOTHING Chad can't do...except give birth :clap: I do like Chad but he must be thinking in his head "I appreciate that you think I"m talented and helpful, but if you all would make some effort, you too could be more well rounded"

Oh and I don't think it's been mentioned but Zach went on and on about wanting lots and lots of babies and Whitney did not stop him. She even said "I want Bradleeee to have lots of brothers and sisters". Chad, again perfect, was much more neutral and said something along the lines of 'we will see how things go/ what the path we are meant to travel works out to be' so hopefully that means that as mentioned here, they will have a smaller family to help protect Erin's health. She just gave him a loving look so she seems on board as well. 8-)

[zz22zz]

As for the baby pictures, no one can tell pictures of my daughter and I apart from birth to age 6, except for me (I was there for both, lol, plus I have a good memory for detail like backgrounds and outfits) and we are 32 years apart. After 6 we are only easier to tell apart because I was a lot heavier than she is as a child.

Plus even the older Bates siblings were struggling with the pictures not just the parents.

Though I thought Kelly mentioned making scrapbooks for all the kids, but that she was several kids behind and needed to catch up. Didn't she give Whitney Zach's baby scrapbook? One would think that making those books would mean you'd remember the photos after handling them later on. But her memory does seem to be poor, maybe natural or from too much KOOL AID. :pray:

[formergothardite]

Are the pictures on the Up website the ones that Kelly couldn't name? I was expecting tiny newborns all in almost identical footed onesies, but the children don't look that much alike and the pictures are all very different.

[Pretzel]

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

The snippets I saw showed Kelly knowing most of the babies that were shown. FWIW, I don't think a scripted "challenge" like that is any proof that she's a good or bad mother. :roll: Mother Pretzel has trouble naming the Pretzel siblings and we're only a teeny tiny fraction of the size of the Bateseses' family. There's lots of other stuff that makes me think KJ and G shouldn't have brought so many kids into the world, but having trouble naming babies on over 20 year old pictures,nah. I don't know why people get so negatively excited when she has trouble naming the kids without the help of birth order. I can barely name our family members without leaving someone out or naming someone twice.

Kelly's leaving her kids without a choice, now that's what convinces me.

[feministxtian]

Are the pictures on the Up website the ones that Kelly couldn't name? I was expecting tiny newborns all in almost identical footed onesies, but the children don't look that much alike and the pictures are all very different.

When I was raising my kids and my stepkids, I'd look at one child and go through the list, including the dogs and cats half the time (or more)...or I'd look at a child, draw a blank on the name and just say "you"...I don't see where it makes Kelly a bad mom for that...heck...I only had 5 and would confuse them...even now I've been known to call one dog by the other dog's name. I get the cats confused all the time too...

[formergothardite]

Everyone at some point calls a kid by the wrong name, but most parents when asked to name their kids in birth order don't say "I can't do that." which is what Kelly did in one interview. I don't think that is what makes her a bad mother, there are tons of other things, but I think that it shows she is no more involved in the lives of her children than Michelle. I just find it odd that Michelle gets criticized for every tiny thing she does yet Kelly can get away with admitting that she doesn't know her kid's well enough to list them in their birth order. If Michelle had failed at recognizing her kid's baby pictures there would be five threads(that would have to be combined) started about it all talking about how this is proof she is totally uninvolved in the lives of her kids.

[eh02]

I agree that Alyssa seems about 15 years more mature than Ben. I think Alyssa is smart. She radiates confidence and is a rational voice, and that is NOT something we see often from these folks.

I wasn't surprised at all when Alyssa got pregnant right away, but I do have to say that I will be surprised if she has one after another nonstop. I personally think she will have 3-4 kids, spaced out a little bit, and then stop completely. I think she has 0 interest in being another Kelly.

And I definitely think Tori and Joseph are courting. I'm not really sure how great of TV it will make - Joseph seems nice but is boring (IMO), and Tori in some ways is a breath of fresh air but would probably be pretty grating if we got her in huge doses. I can't say I'd be very interested in watching their courtship. And Lord knows Gil and Jim Bob will do anything for a dollar. They sure won't be telling anyone to slow down if Tori and Joseph are interested in each other.

I can't see Nathan and a Duggar girl, personally. I can't really see Lawson being a good match either. But who knows?

I still think Kelly probably just didn't want to name her kids because she probably is terrified of leaving one out and making them feel absolutely awful. I really do doubt that she couldn't name them all if she tried, because she seems to really know her kids much more intimately than Michelle. She probably doesn't spend quite as much time reciting their names in birth order everyday like a parrot like Michelle and Jim Bob probably do...but I'm sure she knows them all.

[Firiel]

Everyone at some point calls a kid by the wrong name, but most parents when asked to name their kids in birth order don't say "I can't do that." which is what Kelly did in one interview. I don't think that is what makes her a bad mother, there are tons of other things, but I think that it shows she is no more involved in the lives of her children than Michelle. I just find it odd that Michelle gets criticized for every tiny thing she does yet Kelly can get away with admitting that she doesn't know her kid's well enough to list them in their birth order. If Michelle had failed at recognizing her kid's baby pictures there would be five threads(that would have to be combined) started about it all talking about how this is proof she is totally uninvolved in the lives of her kids.

Yup, this. I think there's a huge difference between Gil Bates needing to name his kids in order and Kelly not even being able to name her kids in order.* ( think needing an order makes sense because with 19, it'd be super easy to get to 17 or 18 and not remember if you haven't mentioned Carlin yet or if you mentioned her first. Kelly couldn't name her kids at all. AT ALL. I can still name the 13 dwarves from The Hobbit with no problem, and Kelly can't name her fucking children? Yeah, that's bad.

*Of course, Gil is plenty awful for other reasons-- worse than JB by far, IMO, because he knew about all the accusations against Gothard and still sent his daughters there. :o

[calimojo]

I think the reason why Kelly gets a pass where as Michelle might not is that Kelly seems to actually like and enjoy her children and Michelle doesn't seem very connected to them at all..

To be fair, I am certain that Michelle loves her kids, but you just don't get the feeling that she has much joy in the everyday raising of them, but it seems like Kelly is more connected.

I think that Kelly and Gil are probably more emotional parents overall, so along with lots of good laughs and loving affection, I also would not be surprised to find out there was some yelling and anger at times.

With Michelle, it seems like if she were angry, that crazy eyed pasted on smile face would just persist as her fake baby voice got higher and higher as she dealt with the situation.

I could see Kelly or Gil blowing up at first and then calming down.

Also, I think Kelly and Gil get a pass because they don't seem to present themselves as perfect. Where as I always get the feeling that Michelle and JB try to present their lifestyle as perfect.

I thought the Q&A was fine, but unlike someone a few posts up, I don't recall them talking about religion. DId I miss that part?

[formergothardite]

A lot of it to me is just Kelly's personality. Kelly is more outgoing and that makes her appear more likable than Michelle. Kelly also is better educated, seems a bit brighter and has had the benefit of watching people bash Michelle for years, so she knows exactly how she needs to appear. This is what you are seeing with this show, years of learning how she needs to appear on camera to make people judge her less.

I doubt Kelly is in anyway more involved than Michelle, she is just better at giving the appearance of being more involved. She assigned her babies buddies before they were born and handed them off to buddies before they were weaned. Does she have good moments and strong points? Of course. But so does Michelle. But because Michelle doesn't have the outgoing personality that Kelly has, has the TLC edit that wants her to come off as freakishly weird, and is less media savvy, she gets judged more.

Both families have good points to them, but both are people who cared more about having babies than about the children they already have. Gil and Kelly are bit more dangerous because of how likable and normal they can look.

[19 cats and counting]

Oh and I don't think it's been mentioned but Zach went on and on about wanting lots and lots of babies and Whitney did not stop him. She even said "I want Bradleeee to have lots of brothers and sisters". Chad, again perfect, was much more neutral and said something along the lines of 'we will see how things go/ what the path we are meant to travel works out to be' so hopefully that means that as mentioned here, they will have a smaller family to help protect Erin's health. She just gave him a loving look so she seems on board as well. 8-)

Been cropping the quote section to only include the part of a post I want to respond to.

First of all Bradley Bates is one of THE most adorable babies. And even though he's an only child now, he has two cousins on the way, both to (fairly) newlywed parents. All 3 Bates marriages so far have resulted in a pregnancy.

With that said, I think Whit will be pregnant with #2 by Bradley's 1st birthday.

[19 cats and counting]

And I definitely think Tori and Joseph are courting. I'm not really sure how great of TV it will make - Joseph seems nice but is boring (IMO), and Tori in some ways is a breath of fresh air but would probably be pretty grating if we got her in huge doses. I can't say I'd be very interested in watching their courtship. And Lord knows Gil and Jim Bob will do anything for a dollar. They sure won't be telling anyone to slow down if Tori and Joseph are interested in each other.

I can't see Nathan and a Duggar girl, personally. I can't really see Lawson being a good match either. But who knows?

.

There was a rumor of a Zach/Jana courtship that never came to be. Now I'm not sure if Jana or JB said no (or both), but Zach (or his brothers) does not fit the mold for a malleable yes man that JB wants for his daughters. And he would not have approved of Jana moving to TN.

I think any Duggar/Bates courtship will be a Duggar boy and Bates girl.

[Kira]

"Bringing Up Bates" marathon on now.

[SayWhat]

I don't see one of the Bates boys "submitting to JB" like Bin does. But Stranger things have happened.

Perhaps a Joseph Duggar or a Josiah Duggar and a Bates girl courtship.

Another poster paired Joseph with Tori, I could see that, as opposites do tend to attract.

Chad Paine and the Florida Webster couple appear to be the most rational of the Fundie couples. They are probably still :cray-cray:

I think I could have a rational conversation with them about most topics. I can't say that about Bin / Jessa or Jill / Derrick.

N

[Dandruff]

With that said, I think Whit will be pregnant with #2 by Bradley's 1st birthday.

I think she'll be pregnant this summer. Don't know if they'll have a ton of kids, but I suspect the first few will be quick.

[Justme]

I think she'll be pregnant this summer. Don't know if they'll have a ton of kids, but I suspect the first few will be quick.

On last weeks show, they both said they wanted a lot of kids....

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I actually wondered if one of the Bates boys (Nathan or Trace?) was eyeing a Duggar girl.

Also, Kelly and Gill could not tell their kids apart in baby pictures. The warm and wonderful Kelly and Gill couldn't tell their kids apart in baby pics.

My friends' parents have 3 kids and can only tell 1 of them apart in most baby pictures because she's the only girl (if the baby is in a dress, it's her). Otherwise, it's a crap shoot.

And, I still can't tell 2 of my cousins and their best friend apart before the older cousin and his friend were 11. They seriously look like carbon copies.

Hell, there are baby pictures of my sister and I that no one in my family can identify. And be two of us look nothing alike. (I have a oval face, she has a round face; she has light brown almost blonde hair, I have dark brown hair; I'm naturally tanned, she's so white she's actually allergic to the sun; I have brown/grey hazel eyes, she has blue eyes; etc.)

Baby pictures really aren't that big of a deal.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

On the topic of Tori being interested in a Duggar/Bates courtship, it might not be one for her own. Isn't she best friends with Joy? Maybe she's hoping Joy will court one of her brothers. That would make her best friend her "sister." And, might even give Joy the ability to move closer to her (after all, most girls in their cultures move towards their husbands' families).

As for why people give Kelly a pass and probably wouldn't for Michelle when it comes to naming (especially in birth order) and baby pictures is that Kelly seems focused on the kids now whereas Michelle's only public relation with her kids comes down to their birth, birth order, number, and baby months. Kelly is not a perfect parent, but she has created a more emotionally secure atmosphere with her children (which you can see in their intra- and inter-familial relationships with others). Michelle hasn't done the same, which is why the Duggar kids seem so robotic in comparison to the Bates kids.

[justmy2cents]

On the topic of Tori being interested in a Duggar/Bates courtship, it might not be one for her own. Isn't she best friends with Joy? Maybe she's hoping Joy will court one of her brothers. That would make her best friend her "sister." And, might even give Joy the ability to move closer to her (after all, most girls in their cultures move towards their husbands' families).

I think Joy is besties with Carlin, not Tori. Can't see Joy courting for a long time thought it's not out of the question that there might be something between her and Lawson or Nathan in the future.

[zz22zz]

On the topic of Tori being interested in a Duggar/Bates courtship, it might not be one for her own. Isn't she best friends with Joy? Maybe she's hoping Joy will court one of her brothers. That would make her best friend her "sister." And, might even give Joy the ability to move closer to her (after all, most girls in their cultures move towards their husbands' families).

I think Tori is bold enough that she wouldn't have been hiding behind the paddle turned sideways if it was for Joy. She would have have said "I certainly hope so! and soon!". Plus why would her siblings be gently teasing her if it was just her hoping for Joy? I definitely got the vibe that she likes a Duggar boy and probably has for a while. :whistle:

Now could I see some kind of multiple courtships with Tori Joseph, Lawson/Nathan and Joy, Jinger, Jana where they have a double or triple wedding and live in the same area and hang out together all the time. Yes.

Though Jana has mentioned in the past (as in back a few seasons) that she likes older men, as in considerably older. It was even mentioned that she'd being okay with a guy who has kids already (they said it as in widower of course). Though of course that would be their pick for CinderJana, some guy who already has 5 kids under 8 and his wife passed away. God forbid she get some down time before her first baby of her own.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I've always thought Josiah and Tori would be cute together. And, hasn't Josiah been spotted with the Bateses and Joseph a few times (not including the mission trip)?

I doubt that Joe is living with the Bateses AND courting a Bates because college rules strictly prohibit that. BUT Josiah might be his "accountability partner" and courting Tori.