Ambition is basically like psychopathy, according to the JWs

[Coldwinterskies]

Thought some of you might want to read this article by an ex-JW about how his affiliation with the Jehovah's Witnesses taught him from an early age that it was wrong to have any ambitions :

 

 

Quote

Among the 8 million Jehovah’s Witnesses are many young people who are at a point in their life where they’re seriously contemplating their futures. Tools such as JW Broadcasting and JW.org give the Watchtower more ability to exploit such impressionable people. Convincing them that making something of yourself, or trying to better the world around you, is selfish and egotistical makes it easier to siphon them into something that will benefit the organization.

 

As I look back I greatly appreciate the message my 7th grade teacher gave me on my last day in her class. The world most certainly is a better place when individuals do what it takes to accomplish great things. Without the ambitions of those who came before us, we’d all still be in the dark ages. Only by believing that we can be something more do we expand our horizons and discover new ways of thinking and being.

 

It’s sad to see that the leaders of the Watchtower are blind to this basic truth. They are too busy growing their empire and protecting its interests to take a look at what the world has actually accomplished. Their doctrine can never describe a world that is moving forward. They can only teach that everything is doomed and only they are worth investing in.

 

 

Fundies, being prone to black and white thinking, seem to be incapable of seeing that there is a huge difference between a narcissist who doesn't care about anyone else vs. loving yourself and valuing yourself enough to follow your own path in life while still trying to show concern for others.

 

It really makes me upset when I think about the lives that are WASTED in fundie cults like Gothard and the JWs. For all we know, the Duggar kids may very well have extremely unique talents in things such as science or other logic-based areas that they will never get to cultivate.

 

One thing I would say about the Duggars is that I don't think any of them are stupid - they just are intelligent people who are very poorly educated/informed.

[feministxtian]

My stepdaughters were raised JW. They graduated in the top 10 (people) in their high school class, with grade point averages in the stratosphere, took tons of AP classes, yet didn't go to college then. They had offers of scholarships that would have given them 4 year basically free rides to any school in the state (and VA has some top-tier schools). Their mother REFUSED to fill out the applications for them and they wouldn't bring them to their dad (their mother had told them that he wanted nothing to do with the girls, but it was her control ploy). Fortunately, within a couple of years of them graduating, they had both left the JWs. One girl went to nursing school and has her RN, the other is pursuing a criminal justice degree.

The truly sad part is that once the girls left the JWs, their mother refuses to have anything to do with either one of them and has only seen her granddaughter once or twice.

That's some shitty stuff.

[ghost]

It seems to me that the only way many of these extreme religions can keep people is to keep them on a tight leash of ignorance. :angry-banghead:

[blessalessi]

I think lots of religions are like this. Not to the extent of believeing ambition to be psychopathy, but giving out messages that following the faith is a gazillion times greater in impact than achievement in a "worldy sense".

[Jana814]

It seems to me that the only way many of these extreme religions can keep people is to keep them on a tight leash of ignorance. :angry-banghead:

Agree!!

[Jana814]

I think lots of religions are like this. Not to the extent of believeing ambition to be psychopathy, but giving out messages that following the faith is a gazillion times greater in impact than achievement in a "worldy sense".

Agree with this also!!

[Peas n carrots]

Interesting. I believe it was here someone posted in a JW thread the relative affluence of various religious groups in the US. IIRC Jews and Hindus ranked very high (likely due to the number of folks from those groups in higher paying STEM jobs). JW's were near the bottom - I'm guessing looking down on ambition as a trait doesn't encourage the JW's to have demanding yet high paying careers.

[FloraKitty35]

Critical thinking=Questioning :naughty:

[Four is Enough]

I'm unfamiliar with JW hierarchy. Do they have ministers, elders, higher-ups? WHO decides who gets to be higher up than other JWs? My JW Friend is expected to proseltyze to so many people per month, and she is held accountable. So who has the ambition to be in a position to hold her accountable? Inquiring mind wants to know.

Of course, I'm a Catholic, so I can' t possibly begin to understand the ways of JW... :shock:

[whoviana]

Ambition is great. Setting goals, investing hard work, time and energy, having the eyes on the prize, then reaching goal. It's great. That is what keeps us motivated, and at all, alive, every day. Ambition is a string of goals that makes our lives worth living for and help us grow, learn, fail, deal with it, keep going and win eventually.

This person confuses ambition with willing to stomp over everybody in order to reach our goal, playing unfair, sabotaging people, ruining people's lives without even feeling guilty about it. It is the lack of remorse and the using of people and then discarding of them that makes a person psychopathic, not the ambition, not the goals that they set. It is the manners, the methods, the means of getting there.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Interesting. I believe it was here someone posted in a JW thread the relative affluence of various religious groups in the US. IIRC Jews and Hindus ranked very high (likely due to the number of folks from those groups in higher paying STEM jobs). JW's were near the bottom - I'm guessing looking down on ambition as a trait doesn't encourage the JW's to have demanding yet high paying careers.

I found a chart with various religious groups and their % of post-grad education and family income over $100K:

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/ ... t=cse&_r=0

What's not clear to me is the extent to which the results are actually caused by religious belief.

The Hindu result, for example, seems to be a clear selection bias. The only Hindus who are in the United States are generally those who were able to immigrate, and the United States is able to cherry pick the most educated elite.

IME, many JWs come from groups that are traditionally poorer than average. In the United States, 37 % of JWs are African-American - the highest proportion among the largest 22 religious identifications in the US. African-Americans tend to lag behind in education and income for reasons that have nothing to do with religion.

The aggressive religious outreach also means that JWs are more likely to attract the sort of people who would be open to speaking to a stranger on their doorstep and accepting a new religion. Again, IME, this includes people on the margins and those going through some sort of crisis. These people would also be less likely to have advanced education and high incomes.

[Four is Enough]

IME, many JWs come from groups that are traditionally poorer than average. In the United States, 37 % of JWs are African-American - the highest proportion among the largest 22 religious identifications in the US. African-Americans tend to lag behind in education and income for reasons that have nothing to do with religion.

The aggressive religious outreach also means that JWs are more likely to attract the sort of people who would be open to speaking to a stranger on their doorstep and accepting a new religion. Again, IME, this includes people on the margins and those going through some sort of crisis. These people would also be less likely to have advanced education and high incomes.

Interestingly, the three JW Kingdom Halls of which I am aware, lie in predominantly white-middle-class working neighborhoods. I rarely see a minority going inside. My friend who is JW and her husband run a very successful business. They travel, have what they want, own their own home outright..

[lilwriter85]

A childhood friend of mine is ex JW. She and her family left during her teen years in the early 2000s. When the family was in, they weren't as hardcore as some other JWs. My friend's father was accountant and had a high paying position at a local mine. The mother was a baker and at one point owned a catering business. My friend did have some JW relatives that had lower incomes. It was usually relatives in which only the husbands worked.

[lilwriter85]

I'm unfamiliar with JW hierarchy. Do they have ministers, elders, higher-ups? WHO decides who gets to be higher up than other JWs? My JW Friend is expected to proseltyze to so many people per month, and she is held accountable. So who has the ambition to be in a position to hold her accountable? Inquiring mind wants to know.

Of course, I'm a Catholic, so I can' t possibly begin to understand the ways of JW... :shock:

The JWs don't have ministers with theological training. Their belief is that all baptized JWs are ministers. They have elder system that oversees the door to door ministries and other Kingdom Hall activities. My friend who is ex JW used to go door to door with her parents on weekends. At the Kingdom Hall, my friend attended she said there was always conflict and favoritism with the elders. Some people would step up to the plate and get their hours done and others got away with not doing anything because they were close friends or relatives of the elders.

[Shirley Blest]

The organization runs as follows;

Publisher (regular member)

Pioneers

Ministerial Servants

Elders (they have a hierarchy also)

Circuit Overseers

District Overseers

Bethelites

Governing Body

Of course, woman can't hold any higher "Rank" than that of pioneer. That is someone who devotes at huge amount of time in service.

Basically, to move up, males have to prove good standing in the congregation...like though exemplary service. A male may become a servant then after several years move up to elder.

Within the Elder body, you have like a school overseer (who is over the Theocratic Ministry school) as well as like one main elder, but responsibilities are broke up among all of them.

Then you have traveling overseers...they tend to be older couples who are free to go across the circuit and spend a week at a time with the congregation in that circuit.

District overseers cover a larger area than circuits. (My old circuit stretched from Huntington WV west to West Union Ohio and north up to Waverly Ohio to Lousia/Inez Ky.)

Then you have Bethelites that serve up at the headquarters at Brooklyn-Bethel...well that may have changed now, I do have a picture with my son (who still goes with his POS father) in front of the building that says "Watchtower" on it when we went to NYC past summer. Most of those people have pioneered and crap like that.

Then the GB...who are a bunch of assholes...the kings of all assholes if you will!

Some of this may be a little off...I've not been in ages.

[Jana814]

Thank you to those who r posting about JW. I said before that an ex-friend of mine is now one. I still haven't figured out why she would join.

[Coldwinterskies]

I thought that some of you might enjoy this terrible music video that the JWs put out on their monthly broadcasting. If you know how they teach their followers about ambition, it is clear the video is meant to reinforce the idea that spending too much time on career or education instead of Jehovah is a terrible idea:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sX-aKoMeC3Q

Notice at 40 seconds in they show a teacher trying to give a girl a book about college to a teen girl. Of course, the girl refuses to even LOOK at the info about colleges.

Disgusting brainwashing!

I consider it evil to discourage young people from following their dreams and developing their minds.

[DaffyDill]

I answered a knock on my front door the other day, and a little two or three year old was standing there, such a cutie. I smiled and looked up to see his mother slowly wandering up the driveway watching me with the little boy. She had this small smile that made me suspect right then she was selling/pushing something. It seemed as if she was encouraging him to run on ahead.

She comes up the the door, and says hello, thanks for being so lovely to my son, he's such a handful. I say that's alright blah blah, niceties, blah. He (unhelpfully) says to her "Mummy, I beats you to this door! Again!" So she'd been encouraging to knock etc at houses. (I actually watched her do it the house across the street afterwards - give him a little shove and pretend to race.)

Then out comes a little magazine book/ and she spouts something like had I heard of the Watchtower? I said yes, I have, it's your propaganda material, and I find it despicable you allow your son to run up to strangers' front doors as an icebreaker. No thank you, not interested. Apparently I am rude and would be hurting his feelings, or so she said as the door was closing...

I really can't stand anyone selling/promoting door to door. If I want an item, I can find it on the net. If I want a church, I can find them too. Get lost.

[salex]

I found a chart with various religious groups and their % of post-grad education and family income over $100K:

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/ ... t=cse&_r=0

What's not clear to me is the extent to which the results are actually caused by religious belief.

The Hindu result, for example, seems to be a clear selection bias. The only Hindus who are in the United States are generally those who were able to immigrate, and the United States is able to cherry pick the most educated elite.

IME, many JWs come from groups that are traditionally poorer than average. In the United States, 37 % of JWs are African-American - the highest proportion among the largest 22 religious identifications in the US. African-Americans tend to lag behind in education and income for reasons that have nothing to do with religion.

The aggressive religious outreach also means that JWs are more likely to attract the sort of people who would be open to speaking to a stranger on their doorstep and accepting a new religion. Again, IME, this includes people on the margins and those going through some sort of crisis. These people would also be less likely to have advanced education and high incomes.

Thank you for the chart. I found this quote to be both obvious and something that some of the right win fundies I know should consider.

In every case, the correlation between education and income is extremely strong. As I note in the magazine, the relationship goes both ways: more affluent people tend to produce more educated children, and more educated people tend to earn much more than less educated people. It’s one more reminder that the financial value of education has never been greater.

I see a growing number of educated religious acquaintances and right wingers discounting the value of education --families who are breaking traditions of advanced education or substituting iffy bible colleges when the parents went to respected state universities. Part of it is "fullish quiver" and part is political anti intellectualism, and fear their kids will lose faith or move from their smallish towns after college, so they are purposely limiting their options. Rejecting degrees in education because their politics / church expect homeschooling --and the College of Education at university if no doubt filled with evil socialists who want to steal children's minds.... :roll:

Downward mobility as a function of religious fundamentalism seems a real possibility, to me, and I can do nothing but watch.

[Coldwinterskies]

I see a growing number of educated religious acquaintances and right wingers discounting the value of education --families who are breaking traditions of advanced education or substituting iffy bible colleges when the parents went to respected state universities. Part of it is "fullish quiver" and part is political anti intellectualism, and fear their kids will lose faith or move from their smallish towns after college, so they are purposely limiting their options. Rejecting degrees in education because their politics / church expect homeschooling --and the College of Education at university if no doubt filled with evil socialists who want to steal children's minds.... :roll:

Downward mobility as a function of religious fundamentalism seems a real possibility, to me, and I can do nothing but watch.

Yes, anti-intellectualism seems to be an inherent quality of fundamentalism I am afraid - and not just Christian fundamentalists. Things like Boko Haram (literally "Western education is forbidden") really drive home the point that these types of groups are intentionally trying to keep people ignorant so they can control them.

This is one reason why I think it is absolutely crucial to support education opportunities for girls in particular. There are so many people out there who want to keep girls from learning that they are capable of more than doing menial work for men.

I genuinely feel bad for the children who will never develop their minds fully because they are victims of their parents' educational neglect. To me, that's what it is: NEGLECT.

[lawlifelgbt]

And I feel bad for the adults too, especially the women, who will never work or go to college, when their minds are just as valuable as men's.

Does anyone know of the cartoon where someone asks God, "Why didn't you send people to cure cancer/AIDS/bring world peace?" and God says "I did! You aborted them!"

Well, I've always thought the converse (That is, "I did! But you forced them out of school to care for their unwanted children/forced them to stay at home!" applies equally well). Smart fundie women are an example of this.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I also see creeping anti-intellectualism, and can't understand it.

Yes, there were things that I would say were immoral (not so much in the sexual sense, but in the political sense) at my university. I actually became more religious and somewhat more conservative as a result of my ultra-left (I won't say liberal, since liberalism was criticized as being too far right) education. I'm not intimidated by the arguments of intellectuals, since I've already heard them. I have the education that allows me to engage with the world, rather than sitting back and moaning about it, and hopefully work to shape it. I know of hundreds of examples where my husband was able to do a lot of good, because he had both his medical background and his religious/basic human decency background.