Benessa, Jinger, and the Chick Tracts

[Buzzard]

What gets me about Ben doing this video is that he's a Calvinist- so God is going to save whomever he wants to, regardless of what Ben Seewald pontificates about on Instagram and FB. So what's the point of the video? Wouldn't it be a better use of his time to pray to God to save the people He predestined to hell?

This

Yes, Ben, people are dying without believing in the "correct" form of christianity. They had the bad luck of being born into a family that are ebil heathens. They're fucked. They should spend more time on facebook, see your videos, or maybe be lucky enough to be accosted by JInger waiving an iphone. Then they'll see the error of their ways and be saved forevah!

So, people are born, by the grace of god (because children are blessings), but some of us are born into bad families where we dont have access to your brilliance and are thus fucked forever and ever, amen.

Yup, makes total sense.

[SportsgalAnnie]

I wonder if Jingers "sins" relate to her wanting to go to a big city or travel on her own. To have a dream different then the normal fundie train of thought and keep it bottled in :cry:

[isarhenne]

It's not only sad but also funny:

whenever I hear Ben talk I have to think of Forest Gump (I'm sorry for the comparison Forest/Tom Hanks).

But at least Forest Gump had a lot of life experience and got some wisdom out of it and became a real grown up man.

It's sad to say but the best Ben can do for his image and reputation is to shut up and become a grown up first.

And Jinger, with her 21 years and no college education, just goes up to strangers and talks about her religion and how their religion the "wrong"? Miss In-denial-about-everything, you can't just harass people like that. It's offensive and in some countries you would get arrested for that. Get your life, girl (not woman)!

[JillyO]

I have a question about theology here, and I've always kind of wondered about that: Some of these kids claim they were saved at age 7, for some of them (like Jinger) it wasn't until they were 14. So what if a little kid (or even a baby) dies? They go to hell because they haven't accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior? Is that what they think, or is there some excemption for children?

[LogansMama]

I have a question about theology here, and I've always kind of wondered about that: Some of these kids claim they were saved at age 7, for some of them (like Jinger) it wasn't until they were 14. So what if a little kid (or even a baby) dies? They go to hell because they haven't accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior? Is that what they think, or is there some excemption for children?

That's why babies are baptized, to forgive them of "original sin". At least that's what was explained to me when I was catholic.

[eh02]

That's why babies are baptized, to forgive them of "original sin". At least that's what was explained to me when I was catholic.

Most protestants do not do any type of baptism for babies. I grew up surrounded by fundie-lites and some full-fledged fundies in Baptist and nondemoninational churches. The typical belief was that there's a vague, not really well explained age at which you are "able" to make the choice to accept Jesus, and if you die under that age, it's assumed you go to heaven anyway. Which maybe doesn't make a lot of sense, but a lot of churches don't really emphasize the concept of original sin quite as much - even if they believe we're all sinners, they still don't necessarily believe a child is capable of making a serious commitment to their faith, either.

We didn't have any baby baptisms, or even (as far as I can remember) anything where we "dedicated" babies to the church.

Most kids who grew up in my pretty conservative churches with me were baptised by 10 or so. It was actually somewhat rare for longtime church members to make it to high school age without being baptized. Jinger might have been talking more about having a "spiritual awakening" kind of moment vs. necessarily being baptized?

[RabbitKM]

I guess what I'm confused about regarding their beliefs is, if all you have to do is Believe In God to be Saved, then how hard can that be? So I believe in God, do nothing to help other people, harrass/discriminate against others, etc, and I am still saved? Meanwhile, a nonChristian walking down the street who puts their faith into action and believes in :fsm: does not get saved. Makes total sense.

[eh02]

I guess what I'm confused about regarding their beliefs is, if all you have to do is Believe In God to be Saved, then how hard can that be? So I believe in God, do nothing to help other people, harrass/discriminate against others, etc, and I am still saved? Meanwhile, a nonChristian walking down the street who puts their faith into action and believes in :fsm: does not get saved. Makes total sense.

They say actions don't save you. But accepting Jesus is supposed to mean that your faith leads your life - meaning you would emulate Jesus, who is supposed to basically be every Christian's role model.

You may not be able to supposedly buy salvation with good acts...but if you aren't doing good acts, maybe you aren't really saved to begin with. Can you really accept Jesus as your savior and have no desire to help others, reject material things, and make the world a better place? I don't think so.

(For the record, I am not religious anymore. But the flawed logic of people like Ben and Jessa on these things really bothers me still.)

[punkiepie]

I have a question about theology here, and I've always kind of wondered about that: Some of these kids claim they were saved at age 7, for some of them (like Jinger) it wasn't until they were 14. So what if a little kid (or even a baby) dies? They go to hell because they haven't accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior? Is that what they think, or is there some excemption for children?

There actually is a big split between the Calvinist and the Arminian theologies. Most IFB churches are Arminian, as it ATI/IBLP, while all Reformed churches, about 1/2 of the Southern Baptist Convention and Vision forum are Calvinist.

The Calvinist would say if a baby dies and they were not one of the "elect," then yes, that baby is in hell. But if the baby is one of god's chosen few, then the baby will go to Heaven. But there is no way to know where they are from an Earthly perspective. And this goes for miscarriages, too. A 3 week old fetus could be spending eternity in hell because they were conceived with a sin nature. Now, some hyper-Calvinists believe all babies who die go to hell because clearly they were not one of the elect.

The Arminian would say no baby or child who dies before "the age of reason" will go to hell- they will all be in Heaven. This "age of reason" is also why Arminians believe that those people who are born with special needs and various health handicaps, who never reach a mental age of reason, will also go to Heaven.

Only Catholics require infant baptism as a necessity to enter into Heaven. While many Protestant churches, like the Presbyterians, do baptize infants, it is not Salvific. It is about entering into the covenant of church membership. Whereas in a Baptist church, you cannot become a member until you give a verbal profession of faith and salvation followed by baptism by immersion.

[JillyO]

There actually is a big split between the Calvinist and the Arminian theologies. Most IFB churches are Arminian, as it ATI/IBLP, while all Reformed churches, about 1/2 of the Southern Baptist Convention and Vision forum are Calvinist.

The Calvinist would say if a baby dies and they were not one of the "elect," then yes, that baby is in hell. But if the baby is one of god's chosen few, then the baby will go to Heaven. But there is no way to know where they are from an Earthly perspective. And this goes for miscarriages, too. A 3 week old fetus could be spending eternity in hell because they were conceived with a sin nature. Now, some hyper-Calvinists believe all babies who die go to hell because clearly they were not one of the elect.

The Arminian would say no baby or child who dies before "the age of reason" will go to hell- they will all be in Heaven. This "age of reason" is also why Arminians believe that those people who are born with special needs and various health handicaps, who never reach a mental age of reason, will also go to Heaven.

Only Catholics require infant baptism as a necessity to enter into Heaven. While many Protestant churches, like the Presbyterians, do baptize infants, it is not Salvific. It is about entering into the covenant of church membership. Whereas in a Baptist church, you cannot become a member until you give a verbal profession of faith and salvation followed by baptism by immersion.

Thanks for the clarification. You too, eh02!

I know a little bit about Calvinists, so though it makes no sense to me, I can kind of follow their twisted logic: There is nothing you can do on earth to change your fate; you are either "chosen," or you are destined to eternal damnation. They believe that when good things happen to them, that may be a sign that they are destined for salvation, but they can never be sure. And all of this goes for babies and kids too, that's good to know (it's what I feared was the case).

What I know absolutely nothing about is Arminianism. It's good to know that at least they have such a concept as "the age of reason." Thanks for clearing that up. That sounds slightly less awful than Calvinism. I learn so much on here!

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Thanks for the clarification. You too, eh02!

I know a little bit about Calvinists, so though it makes no sense to me, I can kind of follow their twisted logic: There is nothing you can do on earth to change your fate; you are either "chosen," or you are destined to eternal damnation. They believe that when good things happen to them, that may be a sign that they are destined for salvation, but they can never be sure. And all of this goes for babies and kids too, that's good to know (it's what I feared was the case).

What I know absolutely nothing about is Arminianism. It's good to know that at least they have such a concept as "the age of reason." Thanks for clearing that up. That sounds slightly less awful than Calvinism. I learn so much on here!

I didn't know anything about Calvinism until I came here. It goes against everything I was ever taught and it makes everything seem pointless if every single thing is predestined. It also makes God look like a monster. I don't get why anyone would follow it. This is my biggest question about Jessa and Ben. I don't see how the Duggars are ok with it. They are explicitly focused on saving people, whereas Calvinists don't believe that way at all.

[Firiel]

I didn't know anything about Calvinism until I came here. It goes against everything I was ever taught and it makes everything seem pointless if every single thing is predestined. It also makes God look like a monster. I don't get why anyone would follow it. This is my biggest question about Jessa and Ben. I don't see how the Duggars are ok with it. They are explicitly focused on saving people, whereas Calvinists don't believe that way at all.

I find it strange too. I think it shows that the Duggars care more about politics and image than actual theology. Calvinist vs. Arminian is a really big divide in the Protestant faith. The fact that they care more about the minutiae of Ben's beliefs (he'll save his kiss for his wedding, he'll have a chaperone, etc.) than they do about the meat of it (that he believes proselytizing is pointless and that we don't have free will) really weirds me out.

[punkiepie]

Thanks for the clarification. You too, eh02!

I know a little bit about Calvinists, so though it makes no sense to me, I can kind of follow their twisted logic: There is nothing you can do on earth to change your fate; you are either "chosen," or you are destined to eternal damnation. They believe that when good things happen to them, that may be a sign that they are destined for salvation, but they can never be sure. And all of this goes for babies and kids too, that's good to know (it's what I feared was the case).

What I know absolutely nothing about is Arminianism. It's good to know that at least they have such a concept as "the age of reason." Thanks for clearing that up. That sounds slightly less awful than Calvinism. I learn so much on here!

The Arminian theology is the red-headed step-child to the Calvinists. Calvinist believe themselves to the most scholarly, with the most supreme interpretation of the bible. Although, the majority of Calvinists today were either raised in, or "saved" in an Arminian church. Almost all of the christian missionaries in the world today, not counting the Mormons, are Arminian. It is rare to find a Calvinist missionary, because it doesn't matter what they do, God has already decided who He is going to save and there isn't anything we can do about it. Now, there are some Calvinist missionaries, but their main reason for doing so is to earn stars on their crown in Heaven. Not to save the lost souls; because there is no such thing- if someone is lost- it's because God has decided so.

The main difference between the two belief systems hinges on whether God predestined certain people for Heaven without any foreknowledge of who they were. So to the Calvinist, basically, he just drew some random names out of hat and said these people are going to Heaven and that's all. And the reason this is okay is because everyone deserves to go to Hell, so if didn't pick these random people to show his grace to, they would be in Hell, too. No one is capable is choosing God without Him choosing you first. That's why Calvinists always worry whether or not they are actually saved- because what if they aren't one of the elect? What if you accept Jesus, and think you are going to Heaven, only to find out you're in Hell forever and there is nothing you could have done to change it. In Calvinism, there is no such thing as free will.

Now the Arminian side is only slightly different- but it's a pretty big one. They believe that while God did predestine certain people to go to Heaven, He did so with the foreknowledge of whether or not they would accept salvation. So he only chose people who he knew would choose him. If a person accepts Jesus as their savior, they are saved. period. There is much less fear about whether or not your salvation is real, because God chose everyone to go to Heaven based on who he knew would choose Him.

I don't really like either of these explanations, I'm more of an open theist. I'm quoting this from theopedia:

"Open theism, also called free will theism and openness theology, is the belief that God does not exercise meticulous control of the universe but leaves it "open" for humans to make significant choices (free will) that impact their relationships with God and others. A corollary of this is that God has not predetermined the future. Open Theists further believe that this would imply that God does not know the future exhaustively. Proponents affirm that God is omniscient, but deny that this means that God knows everything that will happen."

[FloraKitty35]

I wonder if Jingers "sins" relate to her wanting to go to a big city or travel on her own. To have a dream different then the normal fundie train of thought and keep it bottled in :cry:

Probably, independent thoughts are a no no.

[HarleyQuinn]

Those stupid dollar bills she was talking about. I hate those. I waitressed in high school and there was a family that always left those in place of tips. They give me flash rage just thinking about them.

[Incognito22]

It just sounds so rehearsed or memorized I guess. The Duggars are not known as eloquent speakers. She's used to spouting those words frequently. My heart breaks for her. I've always had a hard time accepting that religion has to be accepted due to fear. She seems like a sweet kid( yes I meant kid). There is room for religion and a life. IMO

[Wenny]

Those stupid dollar bills she was talking about. I hate those. I waitressed in high school and there was a family that always left those in place of tips. They give me flash rage just thinking about them.

My husband has gotten a couple. He was so tempting to go put that in a Church offering plate.

[weirdemmaline]

My husband has gotten a couple. He was so tempting to go put that in a Church offering plate.

That's generally the only time I go to church, personally. Any time I get a tract and the church is within 5 miles of me, I go for just long enough for the collection plate to go around and I toss the tract in there with a note saying they're putting off more people than they're converting and then I leave.

[Drinkingthekoolaid]

The biggest thing that strikes me as I watch this interview, is just how scripted and forced it sounds. I've grown up in the church, and I've heard a lot of testimonies, and yeah there's usually some format to them, but people usually sound pretty genuine. She just sounds like she's reading a script.

I get that feeling a lot though, listening to the Duggars in general. It's like they're all just parroting back scripts a lot of the time. Like they've been told this is the right way to answer this question and so that's all they ever say. It always sounds really fake to me.

[Furslippers15]

Wonder how they'd feel if they were handed a card from an other faith. Condemning their beliefs and foretelling of eternity in the fires of hell unless they convert. Would they see it as offensive and arrogant?

[HarleyQuinn]

Wonder how they'd feel if they were handed a card from an other faith. Condemning their beliefs and foretelling of eternity in the fires of hell unless they convert. Would they see it as offensive and arrogant?

They would feel persecuted for being Christians.

[SportsgalAnnie]

Probably, independent thoughts are a no no.

This just makes me sad

[eri]

The only version of the Bible I trust as a legit translation is the Aramaic-to-English one. They have a better idea of how things were translated; for example, the old word for 'camel' is written similarly to 'rope,' as in the quote "It is easier for a rope to enter the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven." Whenever people quote the camel version I almost have to roll my eyes because it is clear they never bothered to look up something that makes no sense. I've heard made-up reasons for why it should be camel but they are the most unlikely.

Aramaic translation rocks. Just do it, folks.

*Accidentally wrote Armenian

[artdecades]

I am convinced that story she told about giving out a tract and the guy wanting more for his friends was him making fun of them/her. I wonder how many conversations they have/tracts they give out where they think the person is really into it but its just a laugh.

[Emme]

Ben makes this "free gift" sound like an ebook you can get by signing up to some newsletter.. Also Ben would never convince anyone to convert. None of this sounds appealing. Does this shit actually work?

"this says 'are you a good person'? and the answer is no" Yeah, lead with that. Children (and their parents) must LOVE that.