Does My Tomboyish Girl Need Counseling?

[feministxtian]

I was (and am) a tomboy. When I was in nursery school (way back in the dark ages), we had blocks we could pound nails into and paint and all that stuff...I LOVED it! As time went on, I was more and more into typically "guy" things, peaking with cars as a teenager. I was also a swimmer...my mother then informed me I was a "dyke"...and not a woman at all and no man would ever fall in love with me.

Well...she was wrong! But...those gender ideas can really screw a kid up.

[carebaer]

In a society with a generally misogynistic mindset, sure. Women take the blame for everything.

Actually Focus on the Family is somewhat equal opportunity. Dads get the blame for gay sons. Moms get the blame for lesbian daughters.

I'm nanny to twin granddaughters who look identical but aren't. They are six.

Totally off-topic, but I read an article about twin-type from a doctor who said if your casual friends can't tell twins apart by the time they're school-age then they are most likely identical. It's still common for doctors to tell moms their babies are fraternal because they have their own placentas even though they could be identical. So unless your granddaughters have different blood types or already had a DNA test, your son or daughter might want to consider one of the companies that does the cheek-swap twin-type testing.

[chaotic life]

There is a whole world between a tomboy, which I was and still am somewhat, and a transgendered child.

First, transgendered is not about sexual orientation. Second, actually LISTEN to the parents of these young transgendered children. They are not forcing anything upon their kids. Many who have become vocal advocates were extremely conservative and Christian before their children challenged their world views. These parents are SCARED. They are scared of the rates of violence and suicide and mental health struggles that are crazy high amongst transgendered individuals. They are scared for children who cannot use a school bathroom unmolested and hold it to the point of UTIs. They are scared of precious, perfect babies who vocalize a disgust of a body that betrays their internal identification.

These children and their parents are NOT merely girls who do boyish things or boys who like to wear the princess costume from the dress up box and put on nail polish. These are children so fragile in their identity in the face of a society that labels them dirty, disgusting, and broken, that they have as good of odds of dying before adulthood as growing up strong and healthy is a thin thread to try to grasp.

I have two children who have been gender non-conforming in some capacity or another. One of them hit puberty and discovered they loved their body afterall. I was never concerned about said child showing too many attributes of the non-biological gender. I was highly concerned about statements referencing a hate of their own body and feeling as if their body had betrayed them. That child has grown into a strong identity but I monitor their frame of mind just the same.

A second child hit puberty and they became increasingly less comfortable with their identification and less sure of who they are. That child is in therapy for support and a safe avenue to find their answers to questions. Some very select high administrators in the school system are aware and willing to work with us if things need to change in the school environment. I thank the universe almost every day that despite living in the Deep South, we live in a large, progressive school district and my children are not the first to navigate this path in this school system.

I'm 100% positive that exposing a child to their biological gender is NOT going to fix a transgendered situation. I'm equally certain that there very little similarities between a natural tomboy and a transgendered child except for the prejudice of idiots like FotF that attempts to lump them together.

Hell, my six year old who appears very cisgendered likes to wear orange and green and black nail polish and now has to only put it on his toenails because kids in his kindergarten were cruel. It had nothing to do with acting like a girl and everything to do with liking colors. People are just flat out stupid about gender identification and the more conservative the Christian, the more the stupid hurts.

[Rachel333]

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

Just a personal anecdote, but I was fairly tomboyish as a kid and even wished I were a boy. It's not uncommon for children to feel that way and one of my good friends was the same way. When my parents heard me say I didn't want to be a girl, though, they freaked out and I was treated to lectures about how I needed to embrace my God-given femininity and told I was going to have to start wearing dresses more often. It didn't do anything to make me feel any different about my gender, just made me feel much worse about myself.

After puberty both I and my friend started feeling differently. As it happens, I ended up as a not particularly feminine lesbian, but she turned out straight and quite feminine. I feel so much worse for the kids whose gender dysphoria doesn't resolve itself.

I remember the moment I realized I was just done with the church culture I was raised in. I was standing around in the foyer after church and a group of grown women were gossiping about some 6-year-old girls and how unfeminine they were. One mom said her son told her that one of those girls said she wanted to be a boy, and all the other mothers agreed that was terrible and they didn't want their kids around those girls. That was my "fuck this, I'm out" moment, but I hate thinking of all the kids who don't have that option.

[Coco]

There is a whole world between a tomboy, which I was and still am somewhat, and a transgendered child.

First, transgendered is not about sexual orientation. Second, actually LISTEN to the parents of these young transgendered children. They are not forcing anything upon their kids. Many who have become vocal advocates were extremely conservative and Christian before their children challenged their world views. These parents are SCARED. They are scared of the rates of violence and suicide and mental health struggles that are crazy high amongst transgendered individuals. They are scared for children who cannot use a school bathroom unmolested and hold it to the point of UTIs. They are scared of precious, perfect babies who vocalize a disgust of a body that betrays their internal identification.

These children and their parents are NOT merely girls who do boyish things or boys who like to wear the princess costume from the dress up box and put on nail polish. These are children so fragile in their identity in the face of a society that labels them dirty, disgusting, and broken, that they have as good of odds of dying before adulthood as growing up strong and healthy is a thin thread to try to grasp.

I have two children who have been gender non-conforming in some capacity or another. One of them hit puberty and discovered they loved their body afterall. I was never concerned about said child showing too many attributes of the non-biological gender. I was highly concerned about statements referencing a hate of their own body and feeling as if their body had betrayed them. That child has grown into a strong identity but I monitor their frame of mind just the same.

A second child hit puberty and they became increasingly less comfortable with their identification and less sure of who they are. That child is in therapy for support and a safe avenue to find their answers to questions. Some very select high administrators in the school system are aware and willing to work with us if things need to change in the school environment. I thank the universe almost every day that despite living in the Deep South, we live in a large, progressive school district and my children are not the first to navigate this path in this school system.

I'm 100% positive that exposing a child to their biological gender is NOT going to fix a transgendered situation. I'm equally certain that there very little similarities between a natural tomboy and a transgendered child except for the prejudice of idiots like FotF that attempts to lump them together.

Hell, my six year old who appears very cisgendered likes to wear orange and green and black nail polish and now has to only put it on his toenails because kids in his kindergarten were cruel. It had nothing to do with acting like a girl and everything to do with liking colors. People are just flat out stupid about gender identification and the more conservative the Christian, the more the stupid hurts.

Your kids are so fortunate to have a kind, compassionate mother and understanding school system. Thanks for the encouraging words! I've noticed some tendencies in my 2 year-old and i want to navigate that road with grace. I want both my children to become whatever they truly are and have happy, peaceful childhoods feeling 100% safe in their identities, whatever that turns out to be. Success stories are so helpful.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I also have a non gender conforming kid. She is three and does not know whether she is a boy or a girl-its just a question she cant answer, sometimes she says something silly, like that she is a train, sometimes she says "No, Im not. Im (name)." She is interested in dinosaurs, trucks, helicopters and cars, and has been since she picked up her first car at one and a half. Her sister is obsessed with princesses and dolls, but she has never had an interest. She is growing out of her sister's hand me downs now, and helps me pick out new clothes for herself, which are mostly from the boys section. She doesn't mind wearing pink, as long as I don't suggest she wear a skirt or anything, but when given the choice, she goes for a dinosaur shirt and her favourite pants, which are navy blue with a bus on. Most people don't know whether she is a boy or a girl, I generally don't correct them because she will one day be able to tell me herself, and my answer might be wrong. Whether she is a boy, girl, neither or both, she is perfect to me.

[patsymae]

Actually Focus on the Family is somewhat equal opportunity. Dads get the blame for gay sons. Moms get the blame for lesbian daughters.

Totally off-topic, but I read an article about twin-type from a doctor who said if your casual friends can't tell twins apart by the time they're school-age then they are most likely identical. It's still common for doctors to tell moms their babies are fraternal because they have their own placentas even though they could be identical. So unless your granddaughters have different blood types or already had a DNA test, your son or daughter might want to consider one of the companies that does the cheek-swap twin-type testing.

There is a slim chance they are in fact identical,if they split within a certain time frame, and I think there is also a middle thing--the egg splits and then is fertilized by two sperm, so they are half genetically identical. Parents decided it doesn't really matter unless somebody needs a kidney or something. Or testing gets cheap enough to indulge curiosity.

[carebaer]

There is a slim chance they are in fact identical,if they split within a certain time frame, and I think there is also a middle thing--the egg splits and then is fertilized by two sperm, so they are half genetically identical. Parents decided it doesn't really matter unless somebody needs a kidney or something. Or testing gets cheap enough to indulge curiosity.

One third of identical twins split early enough to form two placentas. So more than a slim chance especially if they continue to look identical. But I know a lot of families decide it's not that important to know and/or too expensive to do the test. I've justo talked to a few twin moms who were told their children were fraternal based on ultrasounds and found out months or years later that they were actually identical. So I always point out the possibility because I think it's good to know that there is a possibility if the parents or children wonder why they look so much alike (or if someone does need a kidney or something).

[Ofglen]

My dad was worried I'd end up a lesbian (oh, the horrors) because I was a tomboy growing up and named all my dolls Jimmy. :lol: He thought I was in the clear when i took a turn for the feminine. I'm pretty sure he still thinks i'm straight and cis- even though I've been outed to him many times over the years, he just chooses to believe otherwise. :roll:

[Mama Mia]

I'm going to be very blunt.

Chaotic Life, I completely admire how on top of things you are, and how level headed and observant and mindful, especially with a large number of children. That's really difficult.

It sounds like you do a fantastic job of allowing your children to be who they are in their own time and at their own space with the support and resources they need from you.

But I get really ...confused? troubled? By people who talk about tendencies or gender- non conforming traits they see in toddlers. Why would any two or three year old be seen as possibly questioning their gender based on the toys they play with or clothes they choose or colors they like , or, well...anything? A toddler sometimes saying they are boy and sometimes saying they are a girl means exactly as much as them saying they are a dinosaur. There is nothing inherently masculine about dinosaurs. There is nothing inherently feminine about dolls. Tiny kids haven't had it ingrained into their heads yet what the particular colors/ toys/behaviors " go" with their gender -- they are often not even clear yet on if they are a boy or a girl or what that concept is even supposed to mean - anymore than they know that they are two years old, or what that means. They might know to say "2" when asked , they might forget sometimes. If they have a big sister who is 6 that might be their answer because they want to be just like her.

So yeah, if you have a room full of a huge variety of toddler toys, more girls might gravitate towards the dolls. More boys might play with the cars. But if you are talking about very small children it is not likely to be a huge difference and you'll get lots of kids playing with different toys than the ones people have decided belong to their sex. That doesn't make them gender non-conforming. That makes them small children.

I think this bothers me because it seems like people take what should be a trend towards acceptance and support for trans young people, but a big unintended consequence is that there are increasingly distinct and rigid gender stereotyping of every single object and activity.

I was the most stereotypically girly girl imaginable growing up. I still am as an adult. I'm perfectly fine with that. But I played with Legos, like ALL the other kids, boys and girls. I had no idea they even fell into the " boy" category-- until a discussion here. I mentioned playing with Legos and someone said something about them being a " boy" toy ( I don't remember the point of that conversation) . Anyway --- I really think assuming little children are being anything other than little kids when they talk about being a boy or a girl or picking a toy or clothing or anything just contributes to the stereotypes that most people don't like.

To make it clear I am not talking about older children who are hating their bodies because they were born with the wrong parts. I'm talking about very, very young children.

[chaotic life]

Mama Mia, I have not had this experience in the toddler years. However, I know of parents and have read stories of parents who toddlers have attempted to rove body parts that did not match their internal identity. I also know it is common for many young trans kids to vocalize they are the non-biological gender and not waiver like most kids do. I identify my youngest as appearing Cis because he vocalizes he is boy and all boy and has never tried on the concept of being a girl. That is not to say he can only be such, but that I honor wherever my children's identity is at that point in time. Parents of young vocal transgendered children are doing exactly the same thing generally, but their children vocalize a non-biological gender identity and demand they be identified as such, and I have read testimonies of children who done this as early as age 2.

My child who is more settled now never vocalized identification of their non-biological gender but expressed great disdain and hostility towards their gender and their body. It was startling enough in such a young child that I started seeking out the stories and experiences of other parents. Because, as you say, it IS normal for children to try on labels and identity, and in a large family with lots of boys and girls, there is no such thing as gender based toys and play. All of my children own their own baby dolls. All played dress up and with the toy kitchen, with dump trucks, Legos and Lincoln logs. Only one of my children told me at a very young age they hated their body and specifically pointed to the party's of their anatomy that corresponded with their sex. None of my children vocalized a non-biological identity for more than a day or so as children.

[DGayle]

Actually, the advice doesn't say she should spend less time with her dad. It just encourages her mom to build a closer relationship with the daughter by finding an interest/activity they can share together (even if it's not a stereotypically feminine hobby).

I mean, there is plenty wrong with the advice, but that bit isn't one of them, IMO.

I'm definitely picking up on how the daughter should spend less time with Dad. They say encourage them to have a relationship, but it does say the mom needs to spend more time with her daughter. Nothing about family-time. It's very separate.

[patsymae]

One third of identical twins split early enough to form two placentas. So more than a slim chance especially if they continue to look identical. But I know a lot of families decide it's not that important to know and/or too expensive to do the test. I've justo talked to a few twin moms who were told their children were fraternal based on ultrasounds and found out months or years later that they were actually identical. So I always point out the possibility because I think it's good to know that there is a possibility if the parents or children wonder why they look so much alike (or if someone does need a kidney or something).

Wow, a third? That is something I didn't know. And I do appreciate you pointing it out. Might explain a lot as we go down the road.

[patsymae]

What do they do with girls who aren't tomboys but who also don't fit their traditional molds? As a kid I was not a tomboy and actually a kind of girly girl--I loved playing with dolls and (this so dates me) sewing, "designing" doll clothes, etc. I was never athletic, didn't care for sports and loved to look at the hairdo and fashion magazines.

At the same time, I knew I wanted more than my pious Catholic mother did. I wanted to be a journalist. I interviewed every single person I ever came in contact with--priest who came from Ireland, rich people up the street who'd been the to Inauguration Ball, guy up the street who was an eye doctor and actually spent time with me about the anatomy of the eyeball--I was not going to be a sighing helpmeet.

Do these people assume that every female child who isn't a "tomboy" or who doesn't display stereotypical "male" characteristics is thus totally disposed to have no talents, no dreams, no inclination to do anything other than be a helpmeet for a male?

You can be a woman who exhibits or enjoys some stereotypically "female" things, and you can be a male who enjoys some stereotypically "male" things, and just be a person.

So how do fundies deal with that?

[FloraDoraDolly]

I also have a non gender conforming kid. She is three and does not know whether she is a boy or a girl-its just a question she cant answer, sometimes she says something silly, like that she is a train, sometimes she says "No, Im not. Im (name)." She is interested in dinosaurs, trucks, helicopters and cars, and has been since she picked up her first car at one and a half. Her sister is obsessed with princesses and dolls, but she has never had an interest. She is growing out of her sister's hand me downs now, and helps me pick out new clothes for herself, which are mostly from the boys section. She doesn't mind wearing pink, as long as I don't suggest she wear a skirt or anything, but when given the choice, she goes for a dinosaur shirt and her favourite pants, which are navy blue with a bus on. Most people don't know whether she is a boy or a girl, I generally don't correct them because she will one day be able to tell me herself, and my answer might be wrong. Whether she is a boy, girl, neither or both, she is perfect to me.

I saw this article on Facebook earlier today. Here are some dresses with dinosaurs and trains and other cool stuff.

Moms Launch Stereotype-Bashing Clothing Line That Challenges What It Means To Be 'Girly'

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/1 ... 54034.html

[FloraDoraDolly]

I'm going to be very blunt.

Chaotic Life, I completely admire how on top of things you are, and how level headed and observant and mindful, especially with a large number of children. That's really difficult.

It sounds like you do a fantastic job of allowing your children to be who they are in their own time and at their own space with the support and resources they need from you.

But I get really ...confused? troubled? By people who talk about tendencies or gender- non conforming traits they see in toddlers. Why would any two or three year old be seen as possibly questioning their gender based on the toys they play with or clothes they choose or colors they like , or, well...anything? A toddler sometimes saying they are boy and sometimes saying they are a girl means exactly as much as them saying they are a dinosaur. There is nothing inherently masculine about dinosaurs. There is nothing inherently feminine about dolls. Tiny kids haven't had it ingrained into their heads yet what the particular colors/ toys/behaviors " go" with their gender -- they are often not even clear yet on if they are a boy or a girl or what that concept is even supposed to mean - anymore than they know that they are two years old, or what that means. They might know to say "2" when asked , they might forget sometimes. If they have a big sister who is 6 that might be their answer because they want to be just like her.

So yeah, if you have a room full of a huge variety of toddler toys, more girls might gravitate towards the dolls. More boys might play with the cars. But if you are talking about very small children it is not likely to be a huge difference and you'll get lots of kids playing with different toys than the ones people have decided belong to their sex. That doesn't make them gender non-conforming. That makes them small children.

I think this bothers me because it seems like people take what should be a trend towards acceptance and support for trans young people, but a big unintended consequence is that there are increasingly distinct and rigid gender stereotyping of every single object and activity.

I was the most stereotypically girly girl imaginable growing up. I still am as an adult. I'm perfectly fine with that. But I played with Legos, like ALL the other kids, boys and girls. I had no idea they even fell into the " boy" category-- until a discussion here. I mentioned playing with Legos and someone said something about them being a " boy" toy ( I don't remember the point of that conversation) . Anyway --- I really think assuming little children are being anything other than little kids when they talk about being a boy or a girl or picking a toy or clothing or anything just contributes to the stereotypes that most people don't like.

To make it clear I am not talking about older children who are hating their bodies because they were born with the wrong parts. I'm talking about very, very young children.

I know what you mean about the stereotyping. When I was a kid, Legos were for everyone. They didn't have special pink sparkly tricycles or Big Wheels for girls-- everybody had a red one, which was then passed down to their younger sibling, whether that child was male or female. Girls did wear dresses, but they also wore corduroy pants with striped T-shirts. Both boys and girls sported Prince Valiant haircuts. Seriously, if I showed you my class photos from elementary school, you wouldn't always be able to tell who is a girl and who is a boy. It was the era of "Free To Be, You And Me." But for whatever reason, when this generation of kids became parents they chose very, very girly clothes and toys for their daughters. It's hard to find anything for girls that isn't pink or doesn't have sparkles. The toys are all about makeup, hair, fashion design, and painting glitter on pastel-colored ponies. It is such a narrow range of choices. Girls who are labelled gender-nonconforming today would have been just ordinary kids in the 1970s and 1980s.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Ooooooooohhhhh the dinosaur dress is cool.

[Terrie]

Certainly when I was a kid in the 80's, there were certainly "girl" toys and "boy" toys. Barbies, My Little Pony, Transformers, GI Joe. But it wasn't nearly as bad as now. There were plenty of toys that were intended for all kids. After all, more kids = more money. ;) Legos, tinker toys, Pound Puppies (which I LOVED). Now, it looks like someone puked pink and purple sparkles all over the girls' aisle.

I try to get my niece and nephew gender neutral things. I made both baby blankets. My nephew got blues, greens and purples, and my niece got white, yellow and blue. For a lot of things, gender neutral ends up meaning "Buy from the boy's section" which is just sad.

[eri]

Raised without gender and proud. Now a programmer. Don't ever let gender-obsessed people let you down.

What a waste of time. Gender norms are put in place to discourage people from doing things they might otherwise be able to.

Even if you follow them yourself out of choice, you have to admit gender norms restrict more than they "righteously delegate."