Pro-Lifers Don't "Force," They "Require"

[GeoBQn]

Rebecca Frech at Shoved To Them claims that the pro-life movement isn't about "forcing" women to carry a pregnancy to term. After all, "force" requires threat of punishment. No, they are about "requiring" women to fulfill their social contract to care for all of their minor children. She doesn't mention countries where women are punished for abortion through jail time or death.

patheos.com/blogs/rebeccafrech/2015/01/we-dont-have-the-right-to-force-someone-to-stay-pregnant.html

[browncoatslytherin]

uh, huh? isn't that pretty much the same thing, in more or less words? ugh. fucking ridiculous.

[anjulibai]

Yeah, pro-lifers never really talk about punishment for mothers who "kill" their fetuses. Jail? 20 years? 35? Life? Death penalty? What?

No, mainly they lime to focus on the doctors. It's those evil docotrs forcing women to get abortions. Women just need to realize the must keep their babies, no matter what. ::roll::

[formergothardite]

Yeah, pro-lifers never really talk about punishment for mothers who "kill" their fetuses. Jail? 20 years? 35? Life? Death penalty? What?

No, mainly they lime to focus on the doctors. It's those evil docotrs forcing women to get abortions. Women just need to realize the must keep their babies, no matter what. ::roll::

I have asked pro-lifers before why women shouldn't be punished since they claim that abortion is the same as murder and it basically comes down to them acting like women are so stupid that they don't know what they are doing. The evil doctors should be punished but not women because women don't understand that they are killing babies. :angry-banghead:

[anjulibai]

I have asked pro-lifers before why women shouldn't be punished since they claim that abortion is the same as murder and it basically comes down to them acting like women are so stupid that they don't know what they are doing. The evil doctors should be punished but not women because women don't understand that they are killing babies. :angry-banghead:

Ah. Sadly, given their overall view of women, that makes sense.:(

[Terrie]

I have asked pro-lifers before why women shouldn't be punished since they claim that abortion is the same as murder and it basically comes down to them acting like women are so stupid that they don't know what they are doing. The evil doctors should be punished but not women because women don't understand that they are killing babies. :angry-banghead:

so, by that logic, if the abortion doctor is female, she's too dumb to understand what she's doing and shouldn't be punished? Really, Olympics-worthy mental gymnastics are required here. I guess I'm not that athletic.

[salex]

Oh, prosecuting women who have had abortions has been discussed:

“Liberty will continue to find no refuge in abortion jurisprudence until courts … like Alabama recognize an unborn child’s inalienable right to life at every point in time and in every respect,†Parker continued. His flipping of the Casey quote here is as telling as it should be chilling. In one fell swoop, Justice Parker announces Alabama’s attempted judicial secession from abortion rights jurisprudence and makes a call to action for other states to follow suit. But Parker’s opinion is not just some rhetorical exercise. He and his colleague and fellow ideologue Justice Roy Moore explicitly make the judicial case for prosecuting women who have had abortions. According to Parker, because the state has an interest in protecting life “at all stages of development,†this necessitates jailing and prosecuting women for not just endangering a developing fetus, but in the case of abortions as well. “Why should legal protection of an individual at a particular point in time depend entirely upon his or her subjective relation to the killer?†Parker wrote. “Because an unborn child has an inalienable right to life from its earliest stages of development, it is entitled not only to a life free from the harmful effects of chemicals at all stages of development but also to life itself at all stages of development. Treating an unborn child as a separate and distinct person in only select respects defies logic and our deepest sense of morality.â€

rhrealitycheck.org/article/2014/04/30/alabama-supreme-court-justices-make-case-prosecuting-abortions/

This (male) blogger wants jail time for sure and possibly the death penalty.

f we establish a Human Life Amendment to the Constitution declaring that children are full human persons from the moment of fertilization, then we must treat them as such.

When the woman in Texas drowned her five children several years ago, what was your thought on her punishment? Did you believe because she had some rough times at home she should be excused from what she did? The fact is, she killed her five children and had to answer to the law. While we might feel sorry for her emotional state, we must also want justice for the five children who were killed.

In the same way, we must look at the children in the womb as equal in value as the children who were drowned and demand justice for them also. We can certainly feel empathy for what a woman might be going through, however, that cannot change the fact that she has broken the law and ended the life of her child. We know there is forgiveness is Christ, but justice must also be served. 

If we make a separate law and separate punishment for someone who has an abortion then we are saying that the child in the womb is somehow not as valuable then any other human person killed. If we say that intentionally killing one child is less of a crime then intentionally killing another child, then our whole argument for life is destroyed.

standtrue.com/what-would-the-punishment-be-if-abortion-were-illegal/#sthash.cSfxWY9w.dpuf

Women who use illegal drugs are not the only pregnant women who have been targeted by criminal prosecution. Utah’s criminal code, for example, allows a woman to be prosecuted for “causing†her miscarriage. At least one court has stated that a woman could be held criminally liable for a stillbirth if she does anything that could harm her pregnancy, including the use of both legal and illegal substances, missing prenatal appointments, and not obtaining “adequate†healthcare. Women have been detained for refusing a cesarean section and trying to have a home birth.

nwlc.org/resource/if-you-really-care-about-criminal-justice-you-should-care-about-reproductive-justice

Virginia's Republican candidate for attorney general, state Sen. Mark Obenshain, introduced a bill in 2009 that would And an Alabama chemical endangerment law that was written to protect children from exposure to methamphetamine laboratories is being used by prosecutors to put women behind bars if their newborns test positive for drugs.

huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/23/mississippi-miscarriages-supreme-court_n_3327974.html

The one in Virginia didn't pass, to my knowledge, but based on what I've seen among republican state legislators around the country, it will be put up as a bill again and again across the country.

Basically, women are either too stupid to know what they are doing when they have an abortion (which is why it must be banned) AND women are so evil that they consistently lie about causing their own miscarriages and should be put in jail.

We have a lot of argument on what is real rape and what is real miscarriage. Oddly enough, both question the woman's report, not any men involved.

My husband and I are looking at where the pockets of more liberal thought are across the nation to consider our retirement.

[Cleopatra7]

I've never understood the logic that says that abortion is worse than the Holocaust, the trans-Atlantic slave trade, and the Cambodian killing fields combined but the women who obtain abortions shouldn't be punished. Even in Latin America, where providing or obtaining an abortion leads to jail time, the penalty is only three to five years, which isn't much for what is theoretically first degree premeditated murder (at least in the eyes of pro -lifers). That suggests that even pro-lifers don't believe that a fetus/zygote/fertilized egg has the same moral status as a toddler. That and they're incredibly condescending to women. I wrote about this issue in greater detail on my blog:

https://extraecclesiamestlibertas.wordp ... h-dilemma/

(Link not broken because I'm a godless heathen feminist FJer)

[sparkles]

So after these so-called "pro-lifers" have their way and force (yes, FORCE) women to STAY pregnant at all costs, the (il)logical extension of that is eventually forcing women to BECOME pregnant as well. Because, really, what else are we good for, right? So ban abortion, criminalize miscarriage, ban contraception and sterilization and you've got yourself a nation of human incubators. Big Brother charting a woman's cycle? Not out of the realm of possibility.

[lipstickgoalie]

Sounds like a distinction without a difference to me.

[browncoatslytherin]

Sounds like a distinction without a difference to me.

right? it's not "forced", it's "required"...but, what is requiring it? a law? well, laws have penalties for being broken, so that could be construed as being "forced" because that does carry a threat of penalty.

same. fucking. thing.

seriously, if you want to argue semantics, make sure it actually applies to what you're saying before you spout off at the mouth and make yourself look incredibly dumb. that, and just go ahead and admit the truth about your ideology. no amount of sugar-coating covers the smell of that shit you're putting out there, honey. :naughty:

[artdecades]

her argument against the word "force"

To say that someone has been forced either to do or not do do something implies that they are being compelled to perform an action which is against their will under threat of physical harm or reprisal....When we use the verb to force as it is properly understood, then it becomes immediately clear that no one has the right to threaten a woman with any type of punishment until and unless she continues a pregnancy.

ok, so you don't want there to be any negative repercussions for a woman choosing to abort. great. awesome. neither do i.

but wait, she continues to use an example to compare what she wants for abortion with what happens to babies

This is precisely why a mother may leave her newborn in the safety of a hospital or other designated area (in Texas they can be left at fire or police stations as well as health facilities), but not in the dumpster, a field, or other unsafe place. Even in these extreme cases, our society requires that the parents of a new baby take care to ensure its health and safety.

Ok, so you do want women who have abortions to face consequences. What she is describing is illegal and can (and does) result in women being arrested and charged with a variety of things (i am not saying that leaving your baby to die in a dumpster should be a choice, just going along with her argument).

Basically, you are "threatened with punishment" (her words) if you do not do this. Since she wants to apply the same laws to abortion, she does advocate for forcing women to have babies under the threat of law.

[Hane]

I have asked pro-lifers before why women shouldn't be punished since they claim that abortion is the same as murder and it basically comes down to them acting like women are so stupid that they don't know what they are doing. The evil doctors should be punished but not women because women don't understand that they are killing babies. :angry-banghead:

Not long after Roe v. Wade passed, I picked up a pamphlet from the local Right to Life group at a town fair. Part of it actually said, "If you have had an abortion, we feel very sorry for you. You couldn't possibly have known what you were doing." WHAT??? These holier-than-thou douchebags were actually assuming that women seeking abortions are totally oblivious to the particulars of fetal development. (They also were putting together a "support group" which would include both women who had suffered miscarriages and women who'd had abortions. Thank God that fucked-up idea never got off the ground.)

[whoviana]

Yeah, pro-lifers never really talk about punishment for mothers who "kill" their fetuses. Jail? 20 years? 35? Life? Death penalty? What?

No, mainly they lime to focus on the doctors. It's those evil docotrs forcing women to get abortions. Women just need to realize the must keep their babies, no matter what. ::roll::

They like to use the word "murder".

[RosyDaisy]

Well, they don't call Alabama Talibama for nothing. Oh, an fuck Parker and Moore.

[slh12280]

This (male) blogger wants jail time for sure and possibly the death penalty.

f we establish a Human Life Amendment to the Constitution declaring that children are full human persons from the moment of fertilization, then we must treat them as such.

When the woman in Texas drowned her five children several years ago, what was your thought on her punishment? Did you believe because she had some rough times at home she should be excused from what she did? The fact is, she killed her five children and had to answer to the law. While we might feel sorry for her emotional state, we must also want justice for the five children who were killed.

In the same way, we must look at the children in the womb as equal in value as the children who were drowned and demand justice for them also. We can certainly feel empathy for what a woman might be going through, however, that cannot change the fact that she has broken the law and ended the life of her child. We know there is forgiveness is Christ, but justice must also be served. 

If we make a separate law and separate punishment for someone who has an abortion then we are saying that the child in the womb is somehow not as valuable then any other human person killed. If we say that intentionally killing one child is less of a crime then intentionally killing another child, then our whole argument for life is destroyed.

I actually felt sorry for that woman on some level as she was mentally ill and was not getting the help she needed. It was a tragedy that could have been prevented. So yes, what she did was horrible but I think that her mental state needed to be taken into account.

standtrue.com/what-would-the-punishment-be-if-abortion-were-illegal/#sthash.cSfxWY9w.dpuf

Women who use illegal drugs are not the only pregnant women who have been targeted by criminal prosecution. Utah’s criminal code, for example, allows a woman to be prosecuted for “causing†her miscarriage. At least one court has stated that a woman could be held criminally liable for a stillbirth if she does anything that could harm her pregnancy, including the use of both legal and illegal substances, missing prenatal appointments, and not obtaining “adequate†healthcare. Women have been detained for refusing a cesarean section and trying to have a home birth.

nwlc.org/resource/if-you-really-care-about-criminal-justice-you-should-care-about-reproductive-justice

Ok, so a woman may have to endanger her own health or even life because a legal medication may harm a fetus? Sounds about right for this crowd. How is a woman to obtain healthcare if she doesn't have the money or resources? Beyond terrible to blame a woman for something so awful as a stillbirth.

Virginia's Republican candidate for attorney general, state Sen. Mark Obenshain, introduced a bill in 2009 that would And an Alabama chemical endangerment law that was written to protect children from exposure to methamphetamine laboratories is being used by prosecutors to put women behind bars if their newborns test positive for drugs.

huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/23/mississippi-miscarriages-supreme-court_n_3327974.html

The one in Virginia didn't pass, to my knowledge, but based on what I've seen among republican state legislators around the country, it will be put up as a bill again and again across the country.

I hate the laws about drugs and pregnancy. A woman does not stop being a drug addict the second she becomes pregnant. Yeah, I don't think using drugs while pregnant is a good thing but neither is jail time Even alternatives like methadone can fall under these bans when that can be better than withdrawal. The laws do absolutely no good for women or babies as I think women would be less likely to seek help for fear of what would happen.

In short, everything in here does nothing to help women or babies. You can't help babies without helping women. I'm trying to be rational here but you can't really argue with crazy and malicious.

[RandomTrivia]

nwlc.org/resource/if-you-really-care-about-criminal-justice-you-should-care-about-reproductive-justice

So, they must want pregnant women to go live in a sterile bubble or something, to prevent them (us) from doing anything, legal or illegal, that could possibly harm the pregnancy, right? No drugs of any kind, legal or not, no strenuous exercise (we might fall and hurt the baby), no caffeine, stay away from parking lots because of exhaust fumes, etc. Then you get into the debate over what's "okay" during pregnancy and what isn't, which seemed to change monthly when I was pregnant and depending on which books I looked at. Caffeine, aspirin, ibuprofen, tea, sugar, peanuts and other possible allergens, etc. etc. etc.

So, I guess they'd need all those kids - someone has to do the cooking and housework if the wife is hermetically sealed in a bubble for the duration of the pregnancy.

[Childless]

Where does it stop? Nicotine and caffeine are also bad for fetuses. Are going to start arresting women who have a Coke with their popcorn at the movie theater? What about riding in a car? That can be pretty risky. Maybe we should just lock up pregnant women in jail cells to protect fetuses. It's not like they wouldn't all end up there anyway.

[whoviana]

Where does it stop? Nicotine and caffeine are also bad for fetuses. Are going to start arresting women who have a Coke with their popcorn at the movie theater? What about riding in a car? That can be pretty risky. Maybe we should just lock up pregnant women in jail cells to protect fetuses. It's not like they wouldn't all end up there anyway.

Driving while pregnant is very risky since driving, itself is a risky activity too. When I learned to drive we heard all the time how a driver has one foot in prison and one foot in jail. Crossing the street can be dangerous, too. Riding the bike is like paragliding on drugs. Leaving the house is very risky as well. But inside the house, danger lurks in every corner, too. You can slip, you can get electrocuted, inhale household chemicals. Yes, maybe pregnant women should be locked up in a padded room, in a straight jacket, spoon fed since steak using steak knives is dangerous, and they should be diapered.

[whoviana]

So, I guess they'd need all those kids - someone has to do the cooking and housework if the wife is hermetically sealed in a bubble for the duration of the pregnancy.

http://ib4.huluim.com/video/50153287?re ... ze=220x124

Maybe the hamster bubble from south park is safe enough for those dumb, helpless, pregnant women.

[Cleopatra7]

Kind of OT but why are all of Patheos' Catholic bloggers conservatives? There's a portal for progressive Protestants, so why not Catholics? Contrary to the image one might get from the Catholic blogosphere, most American Catholics aren't white, religiously conservative, suburban homeschooling libertarians with five + kids.

[usedtobenice]

I consider all "prolifers," to be rapists. They want to control my body. Rape is not about sex, it is about control, so are the "prolifers."

[Vex]

This makes me unspeakably angry. like literally, shaking-with-rage-mad.

Just because a woman examines a situation and comes to a different conclusion to you does not mean she's wrong, or stupid, or unable to get it. Abortion can be a sad thing and in an ideal world it wouldn't happen - but it wouldn't happen because women would be 100% empowered to control their own fertility, not because it's outlawed.

The stuff about Andrea Yates upsets me. No, I don't want your brand of justice for those poor children, because your 'justice' is nothing but revenge. What happened to Andrea was a tragedy brought about by mental illness and the denial of care.

It's actually funny they bring her up, since she is the poster child of what will happen if these anti-choicers get their way and women aren't allowed to abort, control their fertility or treat themselves during (or before, or after) pregnancy for fear of what it might do to the precious theoretical fetuses.

[kat]

It makes me quite angry and sad that Andrea Yates' then-husband was not charged in some way.

[feministxtian]

I am pro-choice. 33 years ago now I had to make a choice. I chose to carry and parent my baby girl. That was MY choice. It was the right choice for me. Would it have been the right choice for anyone else? I don't know. Honestly, its none of my business what someone else does. All I want is for the women who choose abortion to be able to have it done safely, legally and in a manner that does not endanger their health. Do I necessarily agree with them...probably not. But, it is not MY responsibility to make a choice for someone else.

By the way, that baby girl is 32 years old and mommy to two of the most gorgeous, intelligent, beautiful, outrageous, incredible little girls I've ever known.