How Curious Do You Think the Married Girls Are?

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I think there's a big difference between being taught that sex and sexual thoughts are evil and being taught that they're evil unless you're married and it's with your partner. I imagine that there's not really a lot of guilt or conflicts when they're experimenting with their partner because they're taught sex with your spouse is beautiful and good and necessary. The unhealthy relationship with sex probably is only a problem before marriage. M

Also, just because you're taught that sex is evil doesn't mean that it won't happen. If it did, abstinence only education wouldn't be the complete failure it is.

[apandaaries]

I think there's a big difference between being taught that sex and sexual thoughts are evil and being taught that they're evil unless you're married and it's with your partner. I imagine that there's not really a lot of guilt or conflicts when they're experimenting with their partner because they're taught sex with your spouse is beautiful and good and necessary. The unhealthy relationship with sex probably is only a problem before marriage. M

Also, just because you're taught that sex is evil doesn't mean that it won't happen. If it did, abstinence only education wouldn't be the complete failure it is.

The vast majority of people raised with those "purity culture" values DO report having feelings of guilt, shame, and awkwardness with their spouse, though. It's very tough to overcome a lifetime of conditioning, as Coco mentions, even if one is now automatically supposed to cherish physical intimacy with a spouse. Patheos has a lot of stories of people coming out of the fundie movement, and so many of them are heartbreaking in their inability to accept their bodies as sexual without overwhelming guilt.

Abstinence-only education is definitely a complete failure, but a lot of those kids have more exposure to the real world and real people than the Duggars. The Dullards don't even allow their kids a moment alone; the accountability partners are always there to police them. Their ideas of "purity" are of paramount importance to them, but the transition from "pure" to married (at which point one is, what, soiled? dirty? impure?) is most often reported to be rocky and uncomfortable.

[FundieFarmer]

Relevant Magazine has quite a few articles written by women who said they were completely and totally confused by the sudden change on their wedding night. They said they were interested, but that the psychological damage done actually caused lasting complications in their marriage.

Here's an example. I didn't see category tags on the website so you'll have to search more, but I did enjoy this as a good read back when it was first posted.

relevantmagazine.com/life/relationships/how-im-overcoming-guilt-my-sex-life

[eh02]

The vast majority of people raised with those "purity culture" values DO report having feelings of guilt, shame, and awkwardness with their spouse, though. It's very tough to overcome a lifetime of conditioning, as Coco mentions, even if one is now automatically supposed to cherish physical intimacy with a spouse. Patheos has a lot of stories of people coming out of the fundie movement, and so many of them are heartbreaking in their inability to accept their bodies as sexual without overwhelming guilt.

Abstinence-only education is definitely a complete failure, but a lot of those kids have more exposure to the real world and real people than the Duggars. The Dullards don't even allow their kids a moment alone; the accountability partners are always there to police them. Their ideas of "purity" are of paramount importance to them, but the transition from "pure" to married (at which point one is, what, soiled? dirty? impure?) is most often reported to be rocky and uncomfortable.

The Duggars, for all their problems, still have some kind of effort toward being "sex positive." They talk about sex as a good thing and something really important to work hard at in your relationship - which for all their messed up beliefs, is better than nothing. At least the kids feel like sex is something to look forward to once they're married, even if they're full of shame and guilt for any sexual desires they have until that point. I think the ones who suffer the most are the ones who end up with people they're NOT very attracted to, because marital sex is put on such a high pedestal and it must be such a huge, confusing letdown if it doesn't meet your expectations.

But Jessa & Ben and Jill & Derick seem pretty attracted to each other and comfortable with each other physically, IMO, so I feel fairly optimistic that they'll be able to figure the sex out. Josh and Anna still make me cringe when they're together, though.

[texpatriategames]

Relevant Magazine has quite a few articles written by women who said they were completely and totally confused by the sudden change on their wedding night. They said they were interested, but that the psychological damage done actually caused lasting complications in their marriage.

Here's an example. I didn't see category tags on the website so you'll have to search more, but I did enjoy this as a good read back when it was first posted.

relevantmagazine.com/life/relationships/how-im-overcoming-guilt-my-sex-life

I know anecdotes aren't evidence, but I have a friend who married a preacher's daughter when they were both in their early 20s. They did everything but P in V, which they saved for their wedding night.

Years later, this guy told me that he felt baffled by being expected to go from "nothing to James Bond," and that his wife also felt pressure to go from a pure virgin to some sex machine. It's the whole "sex is evil evil evil evil OK YOU ARE MARRIED NOW GO BANG EACH OTHER UNTIL THE COWS COME HOME."

His marriage didn't sound very good, and he said as much. Not just because of that, but it was a complicating factor.

I'm sure some people internalize that shit more than others, though. I internalized it like crazy, and as a result, I didn't have sex until I was well into my 20s (and definitely outside my marriage). I'd rather people have ill-fated sexual relationships and figure out what they want than get married with no idea of what it really means to share your life with someone. You can untangle your genitals from someone much easier than you can untangle a marriage.

[LogansMom]

I remember Anna said in one of the episodes that just because they do nothing before marriage, does not mean they don't enjoy that aspect of married life. Quite the opposite, she said. So I can imagine from that comment and from J'chelle's advise to the girls, that they are pretty open. Post marriage only, of course.

[FundieFarmer]

You can untangle your genitals from someone much easier than you can untangle a marriage.

[emoji23][emoji23] oh gosh I love this! I'll have to start using it. Thanks, texpatriategames!

[wildlingrose]

I think it might be more for the show. Plus, it could be a privacy thing. Learn how to do it, and you don't have to rely on strangers who might run to the first media outlet to listen to them.

After the whole fiasco with Jinger's(?) diary, I wouldn't be surprised if they just have a general distrust for people being in the private areas of their homes now.

What happened to Jinger's diary?

I

I have heard reports that Jessa couldn't announce her pregnancy until Jill delivered and was fuming.

It could be real ugly if they were competitive about having kids and media attention. I think a spin off would make it worse.

[wildlingrose]

I imagine they might research some talking points and where they will be speaking next. I th I k it would be really horrible to have comments about your abuse on such a wide scale. I would have to turn off internet and lock down. Or go crazy reading some of it. People are so mean.

[OodOnTheLoo]

[wild little fox]

It isn't guilt they feel, it is shame. Guilt is when you do something wrong. Shame is when you feel bad about something that isn't wrong. In my own recovery from abuse it has been very difficult to learn the difference. Conditioning is hard to overcome.

[twinmama]

There's one called Christian Nymphos :shock:

Marriage Bed! Oh god, I used to LOVE going there to read all the ridiculous things they talked about. Probably makes me evil, but I was happily living with and sleeping with my boyfriend (that I ended up marrying) at the time and people TORTURING themselves over making out with a fiance just cracked me up so bad. Then all the horrific advice they'd get about how they should just get married and all their problems would be fixed. And from people married 50 years to someone who wouldn't sleep with them at all, but can't get divorced so never marry someone who doesn't say she'll do you everyday if you want it.

[FloraKitty35]

[emoji23][emoji23] oh gosh I love this! I'll have to start using it. Thanks, texpatriategames!

:lol:

[texpatriategames]

Marriage Bed! Oh god, I used to LOVE going there to read all the ridiculous things they talked about. Probably makes me evil, but I was happily living with and sleeping with my boyfriend (that I ended up marrying) at the time and people TORTURING themselves over making out with a fiance just cracked me up so bad. Then all the horrific advice they'd get about how they should just get married and all their problems would be fixed. And from people married 50 years to someone who wouldn't sleep with them at all, but can't get divorced so never marry someone who doesn't say she'll do you everyday if you want it.

And now I am reading posts on there about whether or not to kiss before marriage. Duggars are coming up a lot. What a rabbit hole. I should be asleep, but I don't work today (I need to do work-related things, aka grading papers).

A couple of people on there are saying if you do wait until marriage to kiss, it should be because it feels right for you, not because you want to seem holier-than-thou (coughDuggarcough). That actually makes some sense to me. I still think being scared of the passions stirred up by kissing is bizarre and maybe a little sad...but hey, their call, not mine. I may be projecting; with my high school boyfriend, I was scared to go past second base. I was scared to kiss each other with him on top of me. I feel sorry for that past version of myself.

They do think side hugs are ridonkulous, though: From a poster: "I never found hugs to be sexually stimulating, just emotionally satisfying. The fact that her breasts are pressed to or touching my chest doesn't provide any sexual stimulation for me, even if I'm hugging DW while we are nude."

There's also a 49-year-old virgin on there who is not waiting until her wedding day to kiss. Yeah, don't blame her a bit there.

[kiwiana]

I wonder if they (the married girls) confide in each other about sex.

Do they know they are supposed to enjoy it as well? or just lay there and submit. I feel sorry for them if that is the case!

Imagine not being able to talk to anyone about sex and things that happen during sex, you would wonder if certain things were "normal" and meant to happen.

Watching any of the couples kiss completely gross me out - It doesn't look like any of them have mastered the open mouthed kiss, they all look like 14 year olds pecking each other on the lips. Get some passion in ya!

[MatthewDuggar]

Watching any of the couples kiss completely gross me out - It doesn't look like any of them have mastered the open mouthed kiss, they all look like 14 year olds pecking each other on the lips. Get some passion in ya!

Ummm, I'm kind of glad that's all we see is 14 year old "pecks". I prefer not to see them open mouthed tonguing each other. Seeing anyone doing that usually grosses me out.

[Callipygian]

Ummm, I'm kind of glad that's all we see is 14 year old "pecks". I prefer not to see them open mouthed tonguing each other. Seeing anyone doing that usually grosses me out.

What bothers me is that, except for Ben and Jessa, they kiss with their eyes open.! Maybe they're afraid of "missing", but it creeps me out. My friend dated a guy in HS that kissed with his eyes open (they kissed in the cafeteria, I wasn't spying on their private moments haha) and he was a generally terrible creep, so kissing with open eyes bothers it more more than it should. Plus, being looked at the up close isn't very flattering! Closed eyes add passion and warmth, open feel cold and sterile.

[Mama Mia]

The vast majority of people raised with those "purity culture" values DO report having feelings of guilt, shame, and awkwardness with their spouse, though. It's very tough to overcome a lifetime of conditioning, as Coco mentions, even if one is now automatically supposed to cherish physical intimacy with a spouse. Patheos has a lot of stories of people coming out of the fundie movement, and so many of them are heartbreaking in their inability to accept their bodies as sexual without overwhelming guilt.

Abstinence-only education is definitely a complete failure, but a lot of those kids have more exposure to the real world and real people than the Duggars. The Dullards don't even allow their kids a moment alone; the accountability partners are always there to police them. Their ideas of "purity" are of paramount importance to them, but the transition from "pure" to married (at which point one is, what, soiled? dirty? impure?) is most often reported to be rocky and uncomfortable.

I have absolutely no experience with abstinence only education, or purity culture, or being around people who waited for sex until marriage --- so take this for what it's worth - --- but just from a reporting perspective -- I think it would be really hard to assume that the vast majority of people raised in that environment have a difficult sexual transition.

The population of people who are sharing the problems they have are going to primarily be people who have a lot of issues with that culture - including sexual issues-- and have left it., or at least are voicing their negative experiences. People on Patheos aren't going to be representative of the larger group of people raised with the idea that sex before marriage is sinful, but is to be enjoyed after marriage.

Unless there's some sort of large sampling that includes people who still identify with that group and its ideals - it's just to biased a group to be representative. Sorry. Not about this issue particularly, just a general pet peeve about assumptions people make about opinions regarding any social or cultural issue.

[FloraKitty35]

I don't like kissing with my eyes open it freaks me out.

What bothers me is that, except for Ben and Jessa, they kiss with their eyes open.! Maybe they're afraid of "missing", but it creeps me out. My friend dated a guy in HS that kissed with his eyes open (they kissed in the cafeteria, I wasn't spying on their private moments haha) and he was a generally terrible creep, so kissing with open eyes bothers it more more than it should. Plus, being looked at the up close isn't very flattering! Closed eyes add passion and warmth, open feel cold and sterile.

[jersharocks]

I have absolutely no experience with abstinence only education, or purity culture, or being around people who waited for sex until marriage --- so take this for what it's worth - --- but just from a reporting perspective -- I think it would be really hard to assume that the vast majority of people raised in that environment have a difficult sexual transition.

The population of people who are sharing the problems they have are going to primarily be people who have a lot of issues with that culture - including sexual issues-- and have left it., or at least are voicing their negative experiences. People on Patheos aren't going to be representative of the larger group of people raised with the idea that sex before marriage is sinful, but is to be enjoyed after marriage.

Unless there's some sort of large sampling that includes people who still identify with that group and its ideals - it's just to biased a group to be representative. Sorry. Not about this issue particularly, just a general pet peeve about assumptions people make about opinions regarding any social or cultural issue.

I think you'd be surprised how widespread the issues go for newly married fundies and even non-fundie Christians who took purity pledges and the like. Go read on the forum The Marriage Bed and see how many Christians have issues with NO sex because the wife feels like it's dirty or shameful. It's shocking.

[apandaaries]

I think you'd be surprised how widespread the issues go for newly married fundies and even non-fundie Christians who took purity pledges and the like. Go read on the forum The Marriage Bed and see how many Christians have issues with NO sex because the wife feels like it's dirty or shameful. It's shocking.

It's true that Patheos writers are more open about the problems (as are other writers for different venues mentioned here), but that doesn't mean they are alone in their issue. From what I've read there, most writers seem to absolutely be raised along Duggar lines, ie, "stay pure until marriage and then go for it and enjoy it and do it as often as he wants it." Those writers do have to be comfortable enough to talk about the problems, and that is very tough, especially coming from a culture which highly prizes "modesty" and "purity." That doesn't mean they are a minority, though, just that they are more open and honest.

The reason I make that statement is based on extensive readings from other cultures which place a high value on female virginity. Ultra-orthodox Jews and polygamous Mormons have similar values and many women who've broken away have reported having problems transitioning from being "pure" to being sexually available -- even if they are SUPPOSED to enjoy sex. Michelle and Jewish laws both encourage happy marriage beds, but just talking about it doesn't make it happen. Here's a NYTimes link about one "Orthodox Sex Guru" in NYC: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/25/magaz ... .html?_r=0

One thing that fascinates me about the Duggars and Gothardites are the flaws in this clearly young cult. But even though the cult is young, it still shares many characteristics with older religious orders/cults/closed world views. A pervasive problem for women in those cultures which value female "purity" is the shame and guilt attached to sex and sexual thoughts. I wasn't raised with purity culture, but I am certainly not going to disregard the experiences shared by those who endured it.

[Mama Mia]

It's true that Patheos writers are more open about the problems (as are other writers for different venues mentioned here), but that doesn't mean they are alone in their issue. From what I've read there, most writers seem to absolutely be raised along Duggar lines, ie, "stay pure until marriage and then go for it and enjoy it and do it as often as he wants it." Those writers do have to be comfortable enough to talk about the problems, and that is very tough, especially coming from a culture which highly prizes "modesty" and "purity." That doesn't mean they are a minority, though, just that they are more open and honest.

The reason I make that statement is based on extensive readings from other cultures which place a high value on female virginity. Ultra-orthodox Jews and polygamous Mormons have similar values and many women who've broken away have reported having problems transitioning from being "pure" to being sexually available -- even if they are SUPPOSED to enjoy sex. Michelle and Jewish laws both encourage happy marriage beds, but just talking about it doesn't make it happen. Here's a NYTimes link about one "Orthodox Sex Guru" in NYC: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/25/magaz ... .html?_r=0

One thing that fascinates me about the Duggars and Gothardites are the flaws in this clearly young cult. But even though the cult is young, it still shares many characteristics with older religious orders/cults/closed world views. A pervasive problem for women in those cultures which value female "purity" is the shame and guilt attached to sex and sexual thoughts. I wasn't raised with purity culture, but I am certainly not going to disregard the experiences shared by those who endured it.

Right, like I said, this isn't about purity culture in particular, it's about any statement that " most people who experienced x feel any particular way, if the information is only coming from people who have stated they have problems with x. It's just not valid. Substitute ANY subject , and it's the same. For example -- it would not be valid to ask a group of recovering alcoholics if college age drinking leads to alcoholism. Or heroin addicts if marijuana is a gateway drug. Or a support group for women who regret having abortions if abortion is emotionally damaging. That doesn't mean those peoples individual experiences aren't valid, or that there aren't significant numbers of people who share those problems . It just means you can't know that " most" people who drink in college, or smoke pot recreationally or have abortions later have problems --- unless you include the wider group who don't self identify as having issues.

[Goldduggar]

I'm new here, so forgive me for asking this if it's been covered already. Who "runs" the facebook accounts for the Duggars, Jill and Derick, and Ben and Jessa? Do they hire it out to someone? Does TLC do it? Awhile back, before all of the fall out from Josh's "mistakes," I posted some not so positive feed back on the Duggar facebook page, and I went to check for it a couple of hours later, and I had been blocked from posting, and my post was removed. (Since the Josh fallout, they haven't bothered taking down any negative posts that I can tell).

I will bet that Jill and Jessa have both, at least, peeked at some of the fb comments about them because Jessa was responding to the accusations of Josh being a "pedophile, molester, even rapist," during their interview.

Jill is already testing the Social Media waters by posting an Instagram pic of Israel's 6 month birthday. She's trying to gauge how much support she still has out there and is totally trying to win that spin off show with her and Jessa. (gag).

Anyway, I bet they all surf the internet a lot more than they let on... Once TLC came on board, and they had money to buy 500 computers, the parents lost all control.

The little kids don't seem nearly as well behaved as the older children. Guess they had to lay off on the discipline some while the film crew was around.

[FundieFarmer]

I'm new here, so forgive me for asking this if it's been covered already. Who "runs" the facebook accounts for the Duggars, Jill and Derick, and Ben and Jessa? Do they hire it out to someone? Does TLC do it? Awhile back, before all of the fall out from Josh's "mistakes," I posted some not so positive feed back on the Duggar facebook page, and I went to check for it a couple of hours later, and I had been blocked from posting, and my post was removed. (Since the Josh fallout, they haven't bothered taking down any negative posts that I can tell).

Putting my PR-girl hat on...I would hope that it was the Duggars themselves doing that. It's considered a bad practice to scrub others' negative opinions especially in this cluetrain culture. A group (Duggars!) or company with universally positive appraisal on a company/group-managed page raises a lot more skepticism than one whose faults are laid out for the visitor to gauge himself. My guess is they ran it until this situation, and then handed it over to the company they hired to monitor.

[apandaaries]

Right, like I said, this isn't about purity culture in particular, it's about any statement that " most people who experienced x feel any particular way, if the information is only coming from people who have stated they have problems with x. It's just not valid. Substitute ANY subject , and it's the same. For example -- it would not be valid to ask a group of recovering alcoholics if college age drinking leads to alcoholism. Or heroin addicts if marijuana is a gateway drug. Or a support group for women who regret having abortions if abortion is emotionally damaging. That doesn't mean those peoples individual experiences aren't valid, or that there aren't significant numbers of people who share those problems . It just means you can't know that " most" people who drink in college, or smoke pot recreationally or have abortions later have problems --- unless you include the wider group who don't self identify as having issues.

Well, everything I've ever read from ANY sexually repressed culture has commented extensively on the issues related to actually enjoying "the marriage bed." It seems to be a pervasive problem in these communities which value a woman's hymen over the rest of her person; no number of words, even from an encouraging mother, seems to overcome the shame and guilt associated with sexuality from an early age.

Even Elizabeth Smart has spoken out about how purity culture values led her to think that she was no longer worth rescuing after her kidnapping, since she'd been sexually violated. She specifically blamed those horrific values for prolonging her psychological and physical torment. I've read extensively on the subject, but I honestly can't recall anyone who stated that purity culture values led to a fantastic married sex life. :geek:

Someone else commented on this thread that Jessa and Bin seem well-matched, as do Jill and Derick, but Josh and Anna's attraction level still felt odd. It's entirely possible that for some people, moving from chaste singleness to married intimacy is an easy and natural process...but I've never really seen evidence for this.

Out of curiosity, and because I'm not especially interested in :dead-horse: do you have any evidence that women raised with purity culture values easily adapt to married life and sexual expectations? I would be very interested in reading about the perspective of a woman who was raised to think her body was both holy and sinful, and easily able to adapt to sexual relations within a marriage.