How Curious Do You Think the Married Girls Are?

[alba]

None of them are mature enough to handle what they might read here. Jessa is still like an immature teenager who gets angry every time her beliefs are questioned. Listening to criticism, thinking about it from the other person's view, an potentially applying it takes a lot of maturity. The Duggars just don't have it. They would be furious and defensive if they read these things. It would say to me that their faith isn't truly "a rock". They themselves have never been allowed to challenge their faith; how could they handle someone else challenging it?

I agree they'd be defensive if they read here. If the internet opens their minds, it will be through people more like them. I can see Jill following mommy bloggers and Jessa getting involved in hair care or make up forums, for instance. In either case, they may get to know and like others online through talking about topics that don't relate to their religion, and then when those people express opinions that conflict with what GotHard teaches, they MIGHT, especially if it's still a conservative viewpoint, consider that perhaps the way they were brought up is not the One True Way. Any change would be gradual, IMO, brought on not by directly confronting their beliefs but by stretching and bending the rules to accommodate their friends.

[Toothfairy]

I totally agree with you. I also had high hope for Derick. He is bright, he has a college degree, he doesn't have a fundie background and he has seen a bit of the world. Wasn't he the kind of guy we would wish for all of the J'slaves? But look how he has changed. He enjoys drinking the kool aid. I can't see how he's slowly introducing Jill to the mainstream. It's Jill's who's turning him into a fundie.

Not surprising. People with college degrees join gothard. I hope Derrick doesn't turn full fundie. I hope he keeps his job, friends and actually educates his son.

[texpatriategames]

When I first saw this thread, I pictured Jessa or Jill sneaking to Walgreens and buying Cosmo or something....that was how I "rebelled" as a pious teenager. Then in college I started reading sleazy Harlequins, because hey, people were having sex before marriage! And a trap door didn't open up and send them straight to hell! That blew my mind.

There are sex help message boards for conservative Christians, though I forget the names of them right now. Marriage Bed or something?

As far as the Internet goes....like someone said upthread, I could see Jill using it to gradually become more openminded and kind, while Jessa could go in the other direction.

[clueliss]

I think I'm more astounded at Jessa and the fast food selfies than I am hearing about TV's. I've seen Instagrams of flying through Atlanta and 'having' to have Chic-fil-a'' now we have the Arby's selfie (for pregnancy cravings).

Remember Anna in the early days taking lunch to Josh. You know, Lunch she fixed. They were on a budget (or pretended to be). Ben does what exactly? Besides today's misinterpretation of Psalm 22 and applying David's words about his own persecution to Jesus. Or last week's copy/pasting globs of Charles H Spurgeon. Oh yes, Jessa posts etc about him going off to work - where? For JB??

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I think I'm more astounded at Jessa and the fast food selfies than I am hearing about TV's. I've seen Instagrams of flying through Atlanta and 'having' to have Chic-fil-a'' now we have the Arby's selfie (for pregnancy cravings).

Remember Anna in the early days taking lunch to Josh. You know, Lunch she fixed. They were on a budget (or pretended to be). Ben does what exactly? Besides today's misinterpretation of Psalm 22 and applying David's words about his own persecution to Jesus. Or last week's copy/pasting globs of Charles H Spurgeon. Oh yes, Jessa posts etc about him going off to work - where? For JB??

Well I'm sure Jessa makes a lot of money off her speaking engagements, of which she's had quite a few. Not to mention, when Josh and Anna got married, TLC didnt have nearly as high of a budget for the show, so they wouldn't have made as much money off of it. And, Anna was competing with Michelle for the attention because while Anna was pregnant with #1, Michelle was pregnant with #19, which is infinitely more interesting to the general public. Jill and Jessa's pregnancies are/were interesting because the audience is emotionally attached to the girls and because Michelle isn't taking the spotlight with her pregnancies. Anna's not likely to get much attention for her pregnancies until she reaches at least #10 because her being pregnant is now old news.

[Walking Cat Bed]

When I first saw this thread, I pictured Jessa or Jill sneaking to Walgreens and buying Cosmo or something....that was how I "rebelled" as a pious teenager. Then in college I started reading sleazy Harlequins, because hey, people were having sex before marriage! And a trap door didn't open up and send them straight to hell! That blew my mind.

There are sex help message boards for conservative Christians, though I forget the names of them right now. Marriage Bed or something?

As far as the Internet goes....like someone said upthread, I could see Jill using it to gradually become more openminded and kind, while Jessa could go in the other direction.

I definitely see this as possible. Jill looking for crunchy mama stuff and finding gentle parenting and slowly branching out (not totally, she'd still be fairly conservative), while Jessa goes to political/religious debate boards to preach and argue.

Oh, I hope Jill and Jana (all of them, really) at least TRY to find similar-but-different viewpoints and consider things that aren't 100% what they have been told their entire lives.

[goldfishgoddess]

Actually I saw an article some years ago about Baptists or some sort of biblethumping types who were big on sex toys in the context of supporting monogamous marriage. You know, keep things spicy with Bubba so nobody strays. I just wonder what Michelle and Boob keep in their bedside table drawers. Bet they get their share of plain brown wrappers in the mail.

[Eleemosynary]

Actually I saw an article some years ago about Baptists or some sort of biblethumping types who were big on sex toys in the context of supporting monogamous marriage. You know, keep things spicy with Bubba so nobody strays. I just wonder what Michelle and Boob keep in their bedside table drawers. Bet they get their share of plain brown wrappers in the mail.

I have now imagined things I cannot un-imagine. Icky. Time for brain bleach. :brain-bleach:

I do wonder if they feel that the use of...marital aids...is sinful. I don't recall any passages in the bible on vibrators or similar.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Actually I saw an article some years ago about Baptists or some sort of biblethumping types who were big on sex toys in the context of supporting monogamous marriage. You know, keep things spicy with Bubba so nobody strays. I just wonder what Michelle and Boob keep in their bedside table drawers. Bet they get their share of plain brown wrappers in the mail.

I always imagine that they are the sort of people who have a boring sex life. Missionary with the lights off, hoping for reproduction. And Jimbob only lasts a few seconds. He seems so insecure about his sex life and has to rub it in everyone's faces, like that kid at school who claimed to have loads of sex but actually had never touched a vagina since the day they were born.

[alba]

When I first saw this thread, I pictured Jessa or Jill sneaking to Walgreens and buying Cosmo or something....that was how I "rebelled" as a pious teenager. Then in college I started reading sleazy Harlequins, because hey, people were having sex before marriage! And a trap door didn't open up and send them straight to hell! That blew my mind.

There are sex help message boards for conservative Christians, though I forget the names of them right now. Marriage Bed or something?

As far as the Internet goes....like someone said upthread, I could see Jill using it to gradually become more openminded and kind, while Jessa could go in the other direction.

There's one called Christian Nymphos :shock:

[HCB]

I have now imagined things I cannot un-imagine. Icky. Time for brain bleach. :brain-bleach:

I do wonder if they feel that the use of...marital aids...is sinful. I don't recall any passages in the bible on vibrators or similar.

I have always wondered this. We aren't conservative Christians. We grew up and had our marriage counseling in a "normal," non denominational church. I remember the sex talk with our pastor. I remember him saying that sex toys were a personal choice. So I've always wondered how the fundies view them. I only know one extremely conservative, maybe even fundie lite couple and they are not against toys.

[Tinkks]

I always imagine that they are the sort of people who have a boring sex life. Missionary with the lights off, hoping for reproduction. And Jimbob only lasts a few seconds. He seems so insecure about his sex life and has to rub it in everyone's faces, like that kid at school who claimed to have loads of sex but actually had never touched a vagina since the day they were born.

Holy crap! That is the exact same way I pictured the fundie sex life... I think Jilly-bean is more prone to have the boring lights off tom-foolery.. Jessa seems to me to be pretty sexual, I bet shes frisky haha

[jinseng]

I must say, when I was watching Jills birth episode and she was describing her huge double shower in the Dillard's ensuite, all that came to my mind was her and Derick getting down and dirty in there...

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Honestly, I don't think that either of the girls, nor JB and Michelle, are having boring sex. Nor do I think JB is bad at it. Michelle wants it just as much as he does, as evidenced by their behavior on the golf course, which would be hard to imagine if she wasn't being satisfied.

If anyone is having boring fundie sex, it's Josh and Anna, who seem to be completely withdrawn from each other sexually. I mean, I could be wrong and they could be the ones with a sex den, but they just don't seem like the ever even figured out kissing.

[eh02]

I definitely see this as possible. Jill looking for crunchy mama stuff and finding gentle parenting and slowly branching out (not totally, she'd still be fairly conservative), while Jessa goes to political/religious debate boards to preach and argue.

I've thought this about Jill and Jessa for a while. I can see Jill making gradual shifts, especially because of Derick and his family's nature vs. her family's. Whereas Jessa and Ben are telling us repeatedly, VERY LOUDLY, that they're right, everyone else is wrong, we're all going to hell, blah blah. Sure, Jessa might wear pants. They might get a TV. They'll do some "mainstream" things. But the fanaticism will always be there, IMO.

As for sex, I think it's pretty hard to say with most couples just looking at them if they're having good or bad sex! Maybe it's easy to tell when a couple has NO sexual attraction (Josh and Anna?...) but I have had friends who seemed very into their spouses or partners on the outside only to tell me when they break up how awful the sex was. And I know some people who seem pretty bland overall who have done some pretty freaky things.

I think for any woman raised in a family like theirs, it would probably take a little while to warm up to any kind of sex that wasn't within the very narrow image of sex you'd been fed your whole life. But I think how comfortable you end up about sex has more to do with your personality and what kind of partner you have than your family's attitudes about sex, honestly.

[HarleyQuinn]

Honestly, I don't think that either of the girls, nor JB and Michelle, are having boring sex. Nor do I think JB is bad at it. Michelle wants it just as much as he does, as evidenced by their behavior on the golf course, which would be hard to imagine if she wasn't being satisfied.

If anyone is having boring fundie sex, it's Josh and Anna, who seem to be completely withdrawn from each other sexually. I mean, I could be wrong and they could be the ones with a sex den, but they just don't seem like the ever even figured out kissing.

The only ones I could picture not only having missionary vanilla sex are BinJERmin and Jessa, tbh.

That thing about sex toys is interesting. If they don't allow masturbation, and think that oral sex is a cop out, wouldn't sex toys be a cop out too?

[eh02]

The only ones I could picture not only having missionary vanilla sex are BinJERmin and Jessa, tbh.

That thing about sex toys is interesting. If they don't allow masturbation, and think that oral sex is a cop out, wouldn't sex toys be a cop out too?

Not all fundies and super conservative Christians DO believe masturbation and oral sex is wrong. Even if Gothard's camp looks down on it somewhat, too, I think there's more of a hierarchy where within marriages, "traditional" sex is "ideal" but oral sex and such is not necessarily considered immoral or wrong.

I grew up in a conservative, fundie lite (with some more heavily fundie) church, lots of homeschoolers, etc. They were very conservative about sex in the premarital, heterosexual-only ways, but never said outright that masturbation was wrong and I definitely remember certain parenting books that were trendy (in the mid 90s) that very explicitly said masturbation was NOT wrong and to not make your kids feel guilty or bad about it. It was more of an attitude of "be careful about your sexuality before marriage, don't tempt yourself into bad thoughts and actions" etc., not "never touch yourself." We were never told all the weird Gothard-esque rules about no period sex, X amount of days after menstruation, X amount of days after a baby etc. either.

I always kind of got the impression at my church that all premarital sex was wrong, but that within a marriage, it was pretty much a free for all. Considering the way Jim Bob gropes Michelle in front of his kids, they obviously know that marital sex isn't just about lights off, eyes closed, p-in-v, don't enjoy yourself too much, sex. They might not know exactly what good sex actually is...but they seem to at least understand that sex has the potential to be exciting, so with time, they'll probably figure it out.

[Pretzel]

Add to this the fact that JB and M are comparably indiscreet about their love life. I may be wrong but I seem to remember from their first book that their goal was always mutual satisfaction. I don't think JB and M are people who sport the "lie back-think of Gothard"-mentality. They are terrible in many ways but they always showed to their kids that affection and enjoyable intimacy do have their place in marriage.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I've thought this about Jill and Jessa for a while. I can see Jill making gradual shifts, especially because of Derick and his family's nature vs. her family's. Whereas Jessa and Ben are telling us repeatedly, VERY LOUDLY, that they're right, everyone else is wrong, we're all going to hell, blah blah. Sure, Jessa might wear pants. They might get a TV. They'll do some "mainstream" things. But the fanaticism will always be there, IMO.

As for sex, I think it's pretty hard to say with most couples just looking at them if they're having good or bad sex! Maybe it's easy to tell when a couple has NO sexual attraction (Josh and Anna?...) but I have had friends who seemed very into their spouses or partners on the outside only to tell me when they break up how awful the sex was. And I know some people who seem pretty bland overall who have done some pretty freaky things.

I think for any woman raised in a family like theirs, it would probably take a little while to warm up to any kind of sex that wasn't within the very narrow image of sex you'd been fed your whole life. But I think how comfortable you end up about sex has more to do with your personality and what kind of partner you have than your family's attitudes about sex, honestly.

I think that Jessa and Ben's fanaticism can go either way. They may either be the fundie-est of fundies, or they may swing the completely different direction. That's the problem with extremes, you go far enough in one direction and you come out the other direction.

[texpatriategames]

Not all fundies and super conservative Christians DO believe masturbation and oral sex is wrong. Even if Gothard's camp looks down on it somewhat, too, I think there's more of a hierarchy where within marriages, "traditional" sex is "ideal" but oral sex and such is not necessarily considered immoral or wrong.

I grew up in a conservative, fundie lite (with some more heavily fundie) church, lots of homeschoolers, etc. They were very conservative about sex in the premarital, heterosexual-only ways, but never said outright that masturbation was wrong and I definitely remember certain parenting books that were trendy (in the mid 90s) that very explicitly said masturbation was NOT wrong and to not make your kids feel guilty or bad about it. It was more of an attitude of "be careful about your sexuality before marriage, don't tempt yourself into bad thoughts and actions" etc., not "never touch yourself." We were never told all the weird Gothard-esque rules about no period sex, X amount of days after menstruation, X amount of days after a baby etc. either.

I always kind of got the impression at my church that all premarital sex was wrong, but that within a marriage, it was pretty much a free for all. Considering the way Jim Bob gropes Michelle in front of his kids, they obviously know that marital sex isn't just about lights off, eyes closed, p-in-v, don't enjoy yourself too much, sex. They might not know exactly what good sex actually is...but they seem to at least understand that sex has the potential to be exciting, so with time, they'll probably figure it out.

I also grew up fundie lite. One day during youth group, the topic turned to sex. One girl wanted to know, "What if it's just not good?" The somewhat flustered youth pastor (who was married) said, "If you love each other, it'll be fine."

Of course, that's a gross oversimplification, especially with fundies who aren't taught much about their bodies. It would be awful to get married and realize a) your spouse has no idea how to make you happy and b) no interest whatsoever in trying to figure it out, because they think what they're doing is just fine and you should be happy with that.

[Coco]

I also grew up fundie lite. One day during youth group, the topic turned to sex. One girl wanted to know, "What if it's just not good?" The somewhat flustered youth pastor (who was married) said, "If you love each other, it'll be fine."

Of course, that's a gross oversimplification, especially with fundies who aren't taught much about their bodies. It would be awful to get married and realize a) your spouse has no idea how to make you happy and b) no interest whatsoever in trying to figure it out, because they think what they're doing is just fine and you should be happy with that.

Not to mention when these suppressed guys get the green light to go to magazines and movies to learn stuff and get better at it, well that freedom can lead to a LOT of disappointment that they didn't have a regular youth, if they also don't have the commitment to make it work together. One of my closest friends had this happen to her. Basically her hubby ended up having a midlife crises in his early 30's, wanting them to try open marriage because their youth was so strict that once he figured out the fun he could have had, he expected her to forgive him for flirting with other people, etc. They divorced after 10 years of marriage and it broke her heart. He was an idiot though, now he's in a high-drama situation and she's happy with someone else. But it just proves this stuff can wreck relationships. You can't expect someone who never learned self-control to be able to easily handle total freedom. I guess that's why some fundies just pretend that part of life isn't important, they know freedom would be too risky. Or the guys kind of die inside sneaking things on the sly and being disappointed in the only holy relationship they have with their wife that they don't feel safe enough to improve. I'm really glad my hubby wasn't from a perfect background, both of us had other relationships before marriage and we didn't listen to the courtship rules. We have a ton of good memories that have gotten us through the rough years.

It's so stupid how the fundies expect people to just kill off parts of themselves. They lock down their kids so much they don't learn how to have self-control, or see first hand what can happen when life is based on shallow stuff. So then when they feel disappointed, they don't have any clue how to get back out of that together - how to grow up together through the learning process, while maintaining the most important relationships. It's a tricky dance.

[bostonista]

Actually I saw an article some years ago about Baptists or some sort of biblethumping types who were big on sex toys in the context of supporting monogamous marriage. You know, keep things spicy with Bubba so nobody strays. I just wonder what Michelle and Boob keep in their bedside table drawers. Bet they get their share of plain brown wrappers in the mail.

:pink-shock: :ew: :dancing-demon:

And now I'll never get that image out of my head... :ew:

[Mama Mia]

Not to mention when these suppressed guys get the green light to go to magazines and movies to learn stuff and get better at it, well that freedom can lead to a LOT of disappointment that they didn't have a regular youth, if they also don't have the commitment to make it work together. One of my closest friends had this happen to her. Basically her hubby ended up having a midlife crises in his early 30's, wanting them to try open marriage because their youth was so strict that once he figured out the fun he could have had, he expected her to forgive him for flirting with other people, etc. They divorced after 10 years of marriage and it broke her heart. He was an idiot though, now he's in a high-drama situation and she's happy with someone else. But it just proves this stuff can wreck relationships. You can't expect someone who never learned self-control to be able to easily handle total freedom. I guess that's why some fundies just pretend that part of life isn't important, they know freedom would be too risky. Or the guys kind of die inside sneaking things on the sly and being disappointed in the only holy relationship they have with their wife that they don't feel safe enough to improve. I'm really glad my hubby wasn't from a perfect background, both of us had other relationships before marriage and we didn't listen to the courtship rules. We have a ton of good memories that have gotten us through the rough years.

It's so stupid how the fundies expect people to just kill off parts of themselves. They lock down their kids so much they don't learn how to have self-control, or see first hand what can happen when life is based on shallow stuff. So then when they feel disappointed, they don't have any clue how to get back out of that together - how to grow up together through the learning process, while maintaining the most important relationships. It's a tricky dance.

That's horrible that happened to your friend, and being raised with those beliefs also sounds awful. But, in fairness, in my experience, the whole mid- life crises/ open marriage/ affairs / breakup / thing is phenomenally common regardless of religious or sexual background.

I'm in my fifties, over the course of my life I could count on one hand the number of people who were virgins on their wedding night ( and 0 who did courtship or saved kissing ) . Most people I've known weren't taught that pre- marital sex was bad or abnormal - or at the very least certainly no one expected them to stay virgins - and most had multiple partners before marriage. But I also only know a handful of couples who stayed married, and one partner stepping out of the relationship with someone else ( or at least having someone eagerly waiting in the wings ) is almost always a large part of the reason. And yea, the whole open marriage thing -- definitely a common precursor.

[Eatingintheprayercloset]

I feel like fundies probably have steamy sex lives once they are married. Throughout their teen years they have to keep their desires under control and can't even hold hands with the opposite sex! I know there's a lot of virgins in their mid twenties but most of these people have either held hands with someone, kissed,and/or mastrabate. Fundies(especially older ones)are sexually suppressed so it's no holds barred when they marry. Couples probably have more sexual freedom to decide if they want to use things like sex toys and lingerie(maybe even some soft core porn) but if a single man/woman uses these things, it's evil.

[Coco]

But, in fairness, in my experience, the whole mid- life crises/ open marriage/ affairs / breakup / thing is phenomenally common regardless of religious or sexual background.

I'm in my fifties, over the course of my life I could count on one hand the number of people who were virgins on their wedding night ( and 0 who did courtship or saved kissing ) . Most people I've known weren't taught that pre- marital sex was bad or abnormal - or at the very least certainly no one expected them to stay virgins - and most had multiple partners before marriage. But I also only know a handful of couples who stayed married, and one partner stepping out of the relationship with someone else ( or at least having someone eagerly waiting in the wings ) is almost always a large part of the reason. And yea, the whole open marriage thing -- definitely a common precursor.

So true. The fundies that i know personally, follow no-touch courtship. They're so repressed they don't learn the kind of emotional strength that comes from dating and being faithful in the midst of possible other relationships. It's what most people learn to cope with in grade school. :lol: My family was conservative but didn't change to super-restrictive fundie until i was in my teens so i'd already gone through that lesson. But having spent years of my youth hearing preaching about purity, i sort of understand why some fundies struggle. It's a weird situation for them: no romance at all before marriage, then every romantic thing all at once with just that one person for the rest of their life. Some of them were so repressed that they trusted parents and pastors to tell them who to be interested in. The overly holy ones wouldn't even let themselves think about people with qualities they found attractive before their parents suggested a person, because they didn't want to "cheat" on their future partner. Which led to fundie kids often standing in quiet groups after church, staring at the carpet, or during Bible Study being too afraid to comment. So awkward. I got judged because i went to work for one of the fundie companies where a lot of the guys worked and over time we became comfortable enough to be a normal workplace with kidding around. Life is just too short to not have fun :D

But yes their married life has to be so boring and awkward coming from that much restriction. Because In that church, even thoughts about sex were supposed to be avoided to stay holy and pure, so it was only after marriage they got to finally know about everything they were taught to run away from. Added to that, if these married couples get bored after a few years and want to venture out into heathen-land to learn how to spice things up, they're not prepared to handle it. It's overwhelming for them. For example, I've been listening to the Top 40 lately, and even i was a little shocked by some of the 50 Shades music videos. I can't imagine some Menno guy thinking, okay i'm going to get some ideas... dear God! what is that?! :shock: :lol: I feel so sorry for a lot of these fundies. I bet Josh found himself going through this culture shock. They explore a little, find out what's fun and then some of them, like my friend's ex-husband, can't stop before everything they value is broken, because they never had to learn self-boundaries -- the church and parents always policed every bit of their lives before marriage.

Being married to the kind of fundies i knew would be like being stranded in the artic for some of them if they're honest. I kind of wonder if Derick is running into that a little bit with Jill, since, like other posters have said, sometimes she seems kind of rigid. But in her defense, having to go through super-perfect courtship, transition to married life, and a stressful pregnancy in just a couple of years AND on camera, wow. I don't blame her for trying to stick to what she knows best for now: their "perfect" lifestyle rules. I wonder if Derick ever thinks back to his time at college around people who didn't even have a clue that fundies like the Duggars make relationships more difficult than they have to be. Jill is so fortunate that she married a guy with experience in the normal world. I bet right now it irritates her that he isn't completely aligned with Gothard ways, but one day she's going to find out that's a good thing for their relationship.

I think some fundies are afraid to be curious and experiment. In the fundie world purity is currency. So exploring beyond the basics is a dangerous pandora's box for them.