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MoonFace

The questions about Amy "Duggar" made me wonder what kind of parents Grandma and Grandpa Duggar were to screw up their kids to the point that the grandkids are so messed up.

 

And I wonder more about the lives of Michele's nieces and nephews. Do any of them have 'normal' lives? Why don't we ever hear about them at all?

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VelociRapture

That's an interesting question. I'm curious to see what other people (who know way more than I do) think. Did Boob and Deanna grow up in a super strict conservative family? Were their parents more relaxed than he and Michelle turned out to be about stuff? I'm really curious to know the background on this because it could explain why Boob reacts to things the way he does and why he chose to raise his children this way.

As for Michelle's family, I believe they live a few states away. She was married so young (just 17) and its possible that the lifestyle they live kind of creates more distance between her and her siblings - either her being disapproving of their choices or them not agreeing with her's. They have visited them in the past, but its possible that her side just isn't interested in the media circus surrounding the Duggars and everything they do.

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artdecades

The J'Slaves shit all over Grandpa Duggar in their "book". Said he was a bad father and alcoholic or abusive I think. Its in the threads about the Growing Up Duggar book. Since we know JB is pulling the strings, it offers a bit of insight into how he felt about his dad. From what I remember on the show, Jimmy Lee never seemed too into the whole fundamentalism thing, certainly not as much as Mary.

Also, while I think Amy is a slacker, is there any indication that Deanna is messed up? Doesn't she work? She raised Amy as a single mother for most of Amy's life. She may have spoiled Amy which lead to her being lazy, but I don't see any indication that she was as bad as JB and Michelle.

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Feberin

I know from the Duggar book that Jim Bob and Deanna grew up very poor. In the book there is a part where they discuss Grandma Duggar cooking decorative rice because it was the only food in the house. I think both Jim Bob and Deanna wanted to avoid their children experiencing poverty.

For Jim Bob I think it's why they worked so hard in the early years of their marriage and waited four years to start having kids. Obviously everything changed after the miscarriage but I think Jim Bob still did his best to ensure his children had food to eat even if it meant exploiting them on national television. I don't think Jim Bob became a fundie because of how he was raised. I think the miscarriage started JB and Michele's soul searching and there was a lot that they both liked about Gothard and ATI. While I do think Jim Bob was raised more conservatively then Michelle I don't think it was anywhere near what his children experienced.

I think Deanna also didn't want her daughter to experience poverty. We don't know too much about her but I would assume she worked very hard and really wanted Amy to have everything growing up. I think she may have even over indulged her and that's why at nearly 30 she is chasing dreams.

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gustava

I don't condemn Amy for "chasing dreams." At least she has one to chase, one which she apparently chose on her own, unlike her gazillion cousins.

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SassyPants
I don't condemn Amy for "chasing dreams." At least she has one to chase, one which she apparently chose on her own, unlike her gazillion cousins.

My adult kids are 27 and 24 and are both grounded, but Amy at 28, IS like lots of people her age. IMO, you have to let young adults know what you think is important and you also have to show them through your actions. We were educated and working professionals and we expected our kids to find a passion (legal), get educated and skilled in that passion and finally secure a job. We did it and we expected them to do it, and they did. Also, we did not pick out professions or trades for them...luckily they both chose areas that they enjoy and mesh well with their strengths and personalities. Unlike my son's GF's family...2 MDs who expected their kids to all be MDs or better...the 1 lone law school student is seen as the failure :(-ridiculous, IMO.

Perhaps Amy's mom was a bit more free spirited? Perhaps Amy had a slush fund from somewhere? I know nothing of Amy's dad and paternal GPs- maybe they have set her up for life? Not too many young adults get to the other side (independent living) without some help, mentoring and reality checks along the way.

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singsingsing

Jim Bob is often criticized for how he talks about his dad, and I understand, because JL Duggar is no longer here to give his side of the story, but what I don't understand is assuming that Jim Bob is lying. Given his beliefs I would think if he wanted to lie about his father he would say that his father was a wonderful godly man who always did the right thing etc. etc. If Jim Bob's father was what he describes, it would certainly explain (though not excuse) his attraction to fundamentalism and its rules-based promises.

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Feberin
Jim Bob is often criticized for how he talks about his dad, and I understand, because JL Duggar is no longer here to give his side of the story, but what I don't understand is assuming that Jim Bob is lying. Given his beliefs I would think if he wanted to lie about his father he would say that his father was a wonderful godly man who always did the right thing etc. etc. If Jim Bob's father was what he describes, it would certainly explain (though not excuse) his attraction to fundamentalism and its rules-based promises.

I think what also makes it hard for a lot of people is we saw JL on the show. He seemed like a sane and down to earth kind of man especially compared to Jim Bob and Michelle. I think most of us had a good impression of him. It's hard when somebody seems nice to reconcile that with them being an abuser.

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SassyPants

I think what also makes it hard for a lot of people is we saw JL on the show. He seemed like a sane and down to earth kind of man especially compared to Jim Bob and Michelle. I think most of us had a good impression of him. It's hard when somebody seems nice to reconcile that with them being an abuser.

Totally agree.

I had know idea that the girls spoke badly of JL in their book.

If JL was such a negative or abusive person, why did JB house in the end?

Personally, I think JB took issue with the fact that JL did not agree with JB's life style, just as JB did not agree with how JL lived his life.

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AngelGirl8811

Totally agree.

I had know idea that the girls spoke badly of JL in their book.

If JL was such a negative or abusive person, why did JB house in the end?

Personally, I think JB took issue with the fact that JL did not agree with JB's life style, just as JB did not agree with how JL lived his life.

I don't think that we will ever really know what way that JL was but I don't think that JB would lie about it. Boob might not have liked the way that his Dad was about his lifestyle but lying about something that big, making up that kind of a story seems cruel. Boob's an idiot but I don't think he's cruel or at least not in the way that he would make up a story about his dead father who can't defend himself.

As for the living with him part, I think once someone is old and sick you overlook their faults. My own grandfather had them and once he was older and just not himself, it's sad and you want to do anything that you can to help them. So maybe Boob sort of put it aside and wanted him to be comfortable? I don't know really. Maybe I'm colouring this with my own experiences.

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JuicyDuggar
The questions about Amy "Duggar" made me wonder what kind of parents Grandma and Grandpa Duggar were to screw up their kids to the point that the grandkids are so messed up.

And I wonder more about the lives of Michele's nieces and nephews. Do any of them have 'normal' lives? Why don't we ever hear about them at all?

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:
For the sake of privacy for this guy, I'm hiding this post.

I've mentioned before that Michelle's nephew through her sister Pam lives in KY. He's was shown on the show during the Ruark family reunion episode; he's the one they interviewed about being older than Michelle but still having to call her "aunt". You could say he's mainstream Christian, he wears shorts, just a typical blue collar guy. Very nice, friendly guy. Only has two kids, unfortunately his son committed suicide a few years ago. I want to say his daughter is in college, but I'm not for sure. But his family has been invited to all of the weddings and attended both Josh's and Jill's (a conflict came up so they couldn't make it to Jessa's).

Cousin Amy, her parents, and Grandma are easy "characters" to include because they're local. And you wouldn't see any of Michelle's kin at Big Sandy :)

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roddma

JIm Bob talks like JL was less Christian because he was a poor money manager. He praises Mary because she took them to church and started her own business. If JL's only fault was a poor financial manager, Boob should consider himself a lucky man. My honest opinion is I think Mary wanted to be more Fundie and JL refused..

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jinseng

JimBob and the family don't slam grandpa Duggar too badly. He just says that he was not a very good 'spiritual leader of the home'. That basically means, he was not a very good financial provider, and therefore grandma Duggar was 'forced' to work outside the home... which is not her proper place! Being a good 'spiritual leader' also requires the man to properly nurture a strong faith in his wife and family, teaching them all in the 'ways of the Lord'. According to their 'umbrella of authority/chain of command' concept, it goes GOD --> DAD --> MUM --> CHILDREN. It's actually a HUGE responsibility to be a father in their world. Keeping a steady income and bible teaching duties etc were deferred to grandma Duggar who seemed to be a lot more passionate about entrepreneurship, frugality and Jesus etc. Sounds like many typical family dynamics to me... your dad is a decent enough guy, but not necessarily the leader of a family. More often than not it is the woman who runs the family, but in their world it is considered quite unacceptable. The basic seminar places a LOT of responsibility on men to lead the family and personally I struggle to think of a single man who would not buckle under the pressure of their intense rules and regulations of family order.

Reading between the lines, I think it's safe to say that in the 70s Grandma Duggar went to a basic seminar and found it really awesome. But the whole thing obviously didn't sit right with Grandpa Duggar. So I am sure this caused some tension in the family, given that only some of them fell into the trap and others were not convinced.

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LittleOleMe

I don't care if JL was a "poor spiritual leader" or not. Whatever happened to those almighty commandments of "honour thy mother and father"?? The fact is, wasn't abused was a child and his father always came off as a very caring man. The only thing I ever heard his father say was that JB had too many children. And he's right. I think he would have made it very clear and public that he was against all of this if he were alive (really alive, which he wasn't for the last few years) when the whole Josie debacle happened.

As far as taking him in if he was such a terrible father, I have to agree that when someone gets to that stage, some people will just overlook it. My own father has overlooked his father's (extreme) shortcomings, yet none of his siblings have/will.

I have to say, though, I think it's kinda ridiculous to make a point of having your child call your sister "aunt" when she's younger than s/he is. I get that it's a respect thing, but it's just weird. My own mother is extremely close in age to her niece and I have never heard my cousin call her "aunt", although her children do. I have a friend who has siblings within a few months and years of his own daughter. (Some younger, some older) She doesn't call them "aunt" and "uncle" either. They're raised together so it's more of a sibling relationship among the kids. And my friend has even told me he has more of a father/child relationship with his younger siblings bc of the vast age difference. (Nearly 30 years between the youngest and eldest) I think some people just like the oddity of saying "she's my aunt and she's two years younger than I am!"

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SassyPants
JimBob and the family don't slam grandpa Duggar too badly. He just says that he was not a very good 'spiritual leader of the home'. That basically means, he was not a very good financial provider, and therefore grandma Duggar was 'forced' to work outside the home... which is not her proper place! Being a good 'spiritual leader' also requires the man to properly nurture a strong faith in his wife and family, teaching them all in the 'ways of the Lord'. According to their 'umbrella of authority/chain of command' concept, it goes GOD --> DAD --> MUM --> CHILDREN. It's actually a HUGE responsibility to be a father in their world. Keeping a steady income and bible teaching duties etc were deferred to grandma Duggar who seemed to be a lot more passionate about entrepreneurship, frugality and Jesus etc. Sounds like many typical family dynamics to me... your dad is a decent enough guy, but not necessarily the leader of a family. More often than not it is the woman who runs the family, but in their world it is considered quite unacceptable. The basic seminar places a LOT of responsibility on men to lead the family and personally I struggle to think of a single man who would not buckle under the pressure of their intense rules and regulations of family order.

Reading between the lines, I think it's safe to say that in the 70s Grandma Duggar went to a basic seminar and found it really awesome. But the whole thing obviously didn't sit right with Grandpa Duggar. So I am sure this caused some tension in the family, given that only some of them fell into the trap and others were not convinced.

I wonder if JL ever made JB work to support the family?

From my vantage point, a person who sells his current and future family's lives, special moments, privacy and anonymity away for cash, is a much bigger heathen than a person who has been deemed a poor spiritual leader.

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calimojo

I think taking in JB's dad during his final weeks of life, may have also been more as a way to support Mary, than JL. Hopefully it was helpful to her to have some family around who could help her. Not sure if they did help her, but hopefully they did.

And, I have to say the episode when his dad died, and JB cried and was comforted by one of the girls, Jana, I think, was probably the only time I have really liked JB. He seemed very genuine there. He may have had a complex relationship with his dad, but that doesn't mean he didn't love him.

Lots of us have complex relationships with our parents, but we still would care for them when ill, and grieve them when they die.

What struck me about the episodes prior to his death (Other than the maudlin birthday party fiasco where they dragged the poor man to the table for filming), was just how disconnected Michelle seemed to be about all of it. I didn't see her comfort her husband, nor her mother-in law.

When my husband's mom died, who was his only living parent when we married, I comforted and supported him and took care of the little details so he could focus on what he needed to do. But Michelle just seemed to take it in stride and went back to gestating whichever fetus she was carrying at the time, or neglecting whichever infant she had just passed off to one of the older girls.

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Sweet Spirit

What struck me about the episodes prior to his death (Other than the maudlin birthday party fiasco where they dragged the poor man to the table for filming), was just how disconnected Michelle seemed to be about all of it. I didn't see her comfort her husband, nor her mother-in law.

I found that interesting too. Her interviews to the camera were so lacking in any sort of emotion in contrast to the grief Jim Bob and most of the kids were showing. Even Anna (who hadn't been in the family long at that stage) was tearful at the funeral. But then Michelle and Grandpa D apparently never really got along.

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calimojo

But it shouldn't matter much if Michelle and Grandpa D got along, because it wasn't about her. It was about her husband and her children, and their loss. Unless GrandPa D had been abusive or truly horrid to her, she should be supportive. Maybe she was and they just didn't show it on camera.

I kind of wonder if the producers of the show don't much like Michelle because it truly seems like they make no effort to make her look good. Again, not a fan of Jim Bobs but at least he seemed genuinely moved by Jill getting married. It was bittersweet for him. I think his tearing up prior to walking her down the aisle was genuine.

No that doesn't make up for all the other times he is a doofus but there are at least a few minutes that seem real with him. With Michelle, the only "real" times I can recall are a few times she seemed genuine when Josie was in the hospital. The rest of the time, she is off

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LittleOleMe

I found that interesting too. Her interviews to the camera were so lacking in any sort of emotion in contrast to the grief Jim Bob and most of the kids were showing. Even Anna (who hadn't been in the family long at that stage) was tearful at the funeral. But then Michelle and Grandpa D apparently never really got along.

You could make the argument that Anna was just emotional because of hormones. They only announced their pregnancy a week or so before he died. In fact, I want to say they announced it at his "birthday party". Anyhow, I would actually agree with you though about Anna because she does seem like someone who genuinely cares about others. She isn't a robot on autopilot like J'chelle is.

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Jana814
My honest opinion is I think Mary wanted to be more Fundie and JL refused..

I think you might be right. Maybe Mary wanted more kids and JL said no.

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roddma

I think you might be right. Maybe Mary wanted more kids and JL said no.

Thats what I think too. As mentioned above, he disapproved of them breeding like rabbits. He said once two kids was all he ever wanted. Mary started to wear more dresses and skirts after moving in with Jim Bob. It is also interesting Jim Bob graduated from Shiloh Christian and Deanna from Spring Dale High.So something definitely changed.

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Duggarlicious

Yeah, between JB and the girls saying that Grandpa had a temper and Grandpa didn't make them go to church and Grandpa was a poor money manager has a hidden message - all those are things that are no-no's in IBLP.

And all that dragging Grandpa out like a show pony for his birthday when he was inches from death...ugh. In the book JB was all "Mom wanted to take care of Dad and worked to preserve his dignity so we allowed them to move into our guest room" yet JB shows him being wheeled, slobbering and senseless, to the table for cake that he can't even feed himself. Nice!

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SassyPants
Yeah, between JB and the girls saying that Grandpa had a temper and Grandpa didn't make them go to church and Grandpa was a poor money manager has a hidden message - all those are things that are no-no's in IBLP.

And all that dragging Grandpa out like a show pony for his birthday when he was inches from death...ugh. In the book JB was all "Mom wanted to take care of Dad and worked to preserve his dignity so we allowed them to move into our guest room" yet JB shows him being wheeled, slobbering and senseless, to the table for cake that he can't even feed himself. Nice!

IMO, (and I'll preface this by saying I've never seen the Jubilee episodes), the episodes of the end of GPD's life and his funeral were in the poorest taste, ever...there was no dignity in filming and airing those moments, none at all. IMO, it was JB's final FU to his father, and so disrespectful.

And if the girls wrote those nasty things about GPD, shame on them. I wonder just how close, and how much individual time they each spend alone with GPD? Parroting shite that your crazy dad says often makes one come off looking like a tool (or 4). :music-tool:

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eh02

I agree that putting Jim Bob's dad on the show seemed in poor taste. I think in a caretaker situation, you use your own judgment about what that person would have wanted you to do to guide you. You may not be able to do it 100%, but it should be a big part of your decisionmaking.

And I doubt his dad would have wanted that. :(

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LittleOleMe

Unfortunately, I have to agree with the others saying that JB's final FU to his father was putting his last moments on tv for all the world to see. It was absolutely horrible. There was no dignity to that. It's not like something happened to him and they were trying to bring awareness to it or anything. He wasn't poisoned while working at some factory. He wasn't hit by a drunk driver. He didn't fall off a ladder at work. He developed a brain tumor and it slowly ate away his brain, eliminating his ability to care for himself, until it finally ate away the parts that controlled his breathing and his heart rate.

I think JB and the J'kids honestly believe JL was a terrible person because of their ridiculous standards. He was a bad person bc he had a temper and wasn't all that great with money and didn't make them go to church. For us normal people, that's not a big deal. But in their world, that's akin to being a gay pride marching atheist. I wonder if Mary resents him for the sole reason that he wouldn't give her any more children. I wonder how Deanna feels. How JL's family feels. He had to have siblings and thus nieces and nephews. Has Deanna ever spoke about her father??

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