Joseph Duggar starts College

[Themiscyran]

I don't know if I agree. When credits transfer and the previous school is not very good, students suffer from the lack of preparation. I've had students in advanced classes who couldn't do the work because they were no better prepared than our 100 level students. it may be kinder not to give them credit.

However, I do agre that these unaccredited schools are often less than open about the transferability of their credits. That is truly unfair to students.

I get what you're saying, but I have that problem with schools that ARE accredited...accreditation doesn't guarantee quality. I have students that transfer from [local accredited state 2 year school] to where I teach [4 year public state university in the same town] and they have a terrible time. LAS2YS has too many students and not enough profs to adequately monitor writing skills, for example. Some of them are juniors and have never written more than 3 pages, as majors in humanities/social sciences! :pull-hair:

So that problem seems a lot bigger than fundie schools, tbh. I agree it's one that should be tackled, though, somehow. I honestly don't know if regional accrediting bodies can do anything about it, though, or if it needs to be tackled another way. Some of the for-profit colleges also have this problem.

I was just thinking about the dishonesty thing. Pensacola Bible College in Florida seems to be one of the worst offenders in that regard. From what my students say, they just outright lie about what will transfer. And they are taking advantage of often very inexperienced people which just infuriates me. "Trust us--we're Christian!" :angry-banghead:

[Themiscyran]

Also @ emmalyn I don't mean to keep liking/unliking your post; I was trying to use the quote function and my motor control is terrible today, apparently! My bad!

[Cleopatra7]

Looking at their faculty list, I can tell you there is NO WAY they are anywhere near SACS accreditation.

thecrowncollege.com/about-crown/faculty-staff/

SACS requires that anyone teaching subject X have 18 graduate course credit hours in subject X (sacscoc.org/pdf/081705/faculty%20credentials.pdf) and they can be reeeeal sticky about that, I know from my own university's re-accreditation process (you have to be re-accredited every 5-10 years depending on various circumstances). You can make a case for individual faculty member who don't quite have that or who are special cases, etc. but normally they're sticklers. So if you have a PhD in history they really don't like it if you're teaching a class labeled Poli Sci, even if it's something like "the history of Politics" or something.

Now look at that faculty list for Crown, and you can see that they have people listed in History and English with no graduate work in history or English whatsoever, maybe a BA in that field but maybe not even that. Maybe they are too cheap to pay people with proper qualifications, I dunno, but a graduate degree in nursing in no way is the right credential to teach English.

I mean, this is very bare minimum stuff. The classes could be full of fundie propaganda but if theyw ere taught by people with the right credentials, they'd probably pass--that's how places like Liberty U get through. (SACS does look at syllabi but they're pretty hands-off about the ideological bent of courses, although I don't know if a completely fake fundie biology course, for ex, would pass muster--they'd probably have to at least cover the basics of evolutionary theory.) And the teachers could be lousy in the classroom--SACS doesn't really have a measure for that, although they do expect the university's departments to show they are monitoring outcomes in some way and working to improve.

tl;dr many of their faculty don't even come close to having the minimum number of graduate hours in the subjects they're teaching' if they're trying for real accreditation as opposed to fake fundie, they're not trying very hard!

The entire point of these fundie "bible colleges" is that they aren't accredited, because that would imply that they aren't separated enough from the secular world. These "schools" are meant to be fundie finishing schools for young adults, keeping them in the fundie orbit during the time in their life when they would be most likely to question or leave their childhood religion, either by not attending church regularly or being exposed to information that would cause them to question a literalist reading of the Bible. According to the accounts I've read on Stuff Fundies Like, many of these young adults think that attending a "Bible college" is a godsend at the time, because it allows them to be independent for the first time in their lives, but then they soon realize that these "schools" are just as legalistic and restrictive as their families. So assuming that Joseph is still a student at Crown, I don't view it as being a step towards greater independence, because he's still being monitored 24/7 by authorities who think exactly like his parents.

[grt42btexan]

If anyone wants an excellent read on what really goes on at Liberty, read An Unlikely Disciple by Kevin Roose. It is funny inside account of someone who transferred into Liberty and pretended to be fundie. He had to "learn" the practices of Christians and rituals. Great perspective from an Ivy League liberal agnostic. I am a Christian and thought it was a honest and accurate look even though I never attended Liberty but knew many friends who did.

[RosyDaisy]

My parents were firm believers in public schools and colleges for my sister and I. They didn't have much faith in religious schools and colleges to provide an adequate education. This is in rural Alabama. I know there are good religious schools and colleges here in the U.S. That was just my parents' opinion.

[sophie10130]

What did they think a "normal" college experience was like? Mine was Sodom and Gomorrah-level debauched by fundie standards, maybe a little bit wild by secular standards, and downright tame by my university's standards (I went to a "hippie school").

A walled campus with gates that shut out students at curfew every night with a guard you had to talk to to let you in. If you were out past curfew you had to sign your name so you could get in trouble later.

Not being able to go in the grass in front of opposite sex dorms. Must stay on the sidewalk! We all know lusting can happen in grass. It almost doesn't need to be said, but there was no going in opposite sex dorms.

Uniforms. They had to wear business casual to class. Girls could not wear pants to class.

I remember one girl told me her brother, who went to the same school, and her dad had to wait outside her dorm because they weren't allowed in. Only on moving in and moving out day.

I think one building still had separate entrances for men and women. I couldn't tell if that was a joke or serious. Like maybe it was like that, but it wasn't a rule anymore and people still followed it out of habit?

In direct opposition to my school where there were coed dorms, basically no rules about drinking, teachers routinely smoked pot with students, extremely defrauding plays were held with fake bjs and everything! We had a random day in the spring where classes were cancelled and the school put on a big party with inflatables and everyone got up at 6am and got drunk and played all day. There was a mudpit.

[sophie10130]

I also forgot to mention all their one-to-one boy/girl activity had to be monitored and you were not allowed to do more than hug! Also, I think I remember Liberty or BJU saying no mixed race relationships??? Could that be true? Hopefully my memory is faulty!!

[Cleopatra7]

I also forgot to mention all their one-to-one boy/girl activity had to be monitored and you were not allowed to do more than hug! Also, I think I remember Liberty or BJU saying no mixed race relationships??? Could that be true? Hopefully my memory is faulty!!

I know inter-racial relationships were banned at BJU until 2000, not surprising since Bob Jones Sr was a KKK fellow traveller:

http://www.jbhe.com/news_views/62_bobjones.html (link not broken because it's a scholarly site)

The university’s founder, Bob Jones, was a fundamentalist evangelist who believed that the theory of evolution was an abomination. He called the pope the anti-Christ and dismissed Catholicism as a “Satanic counterfeit.†He once said, “I would rather see a saloon on every corner than a Catholic in the White House.â€

Jones Sr. was of the view that twentieth-century blacks should be grateful to whites for bringing their ancestors to this country as slaves. If this had not happened, Jones wrote in 1960, “they might still be over there in the jungles of Africa, unconverted.†Integrationists, according to Jones, were wrongfully trying to eradicate natural boundaries that God himself had established.

I don't believe that Liberty University ever had rules about interracial dating, but its founder Jerry Falwell first made a name for himself as a segregationist and ran a "Christian school" (i.e., segregation academy) in the 1960s:

http://www.thenation.com/article/agent-intolerance/ (link not broken because the Nation is a secular news site):

 In a 1964 sermon, “Ministers and Marchers,†Falwell attacked King as a Communist subversive. After questioning “the sincerity and intentions of some civil rights leaders such as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Mr. James Farmer, and others, who are known to have left-wing associations,†Falwell declared, “It is very obvious that the Communists, as they do in all parts of the world, are taking advantage of a tense situation in our land, and are exploiting every incident to bring about violence and bloodshed.â€

Falwell concluded, “Preachers are not called to be politicians, but soul winners.â€

Then, for a time, Falwell appeared to follow his own advice. He retreated from massive resistance and founded the Lynchburg Christian Academy, an institution described by the Lynchburg News in 1966 as “a private school for white students.†It was one among many so-called “seg academies†created in the South to avoid integrated public schools.

Never forget that the religious right was originally formed to fight against black civil rights, and then gradually expanded their enemies list to include feminists and LGBT people.

[sophie10130]

I know inter-racial relationships were banned at BJU until 2000, not surprising since Bob Jones Sr was a KKK fellow traveller:

http://www.jbhe.com/news_views/62_bobjones.html (link not broken because it's a scholarly site)

I don't believe that Liberty University ever had rules about interracial dating, but its founder Jerry Falwell first made a name for himself as a segregationist and ran a "Christian school" (i.e., segregation academy) in the 1960s:

http://www.thenation.com/article/agent-intolerance/ (link not broken because the Nation is a secular news site):

Never forget that the religious right was originally formed to fight against black civil rights, and then gradually expanded their enemies list to include feminists and LGBT people.

Truly.

Thanks for the education! I need to read up on this more.

[EmCatlyn]

I get what you're saying, but I have that problem with schools that ARE accredited...accreditation doesn't guarantee quality. I have students that transfer from [local accredited state 2 year school] to where I teach [4 year public state university in the same town] and they have a terrible time. LAS2YS has too many students and not enough profs to adequately monitor writing skills, for example. Some of them are juniors and have never written more than 3 pages, as majors in humanities/social sciences! :pull-hair:

So that problem seems a lot bigger than fundie schools, tbh. I agree it's one that should be tackled, though, somehow. I honestly don't know if regional accrediting bodies can do anything about it, though, or if it needs to be tackled another way. Some of the for-profit colleges also have this problem.

I was just thinking about the dishonesty thing. Pensacola Bible College in Florida seems to be one of the worst offenders in that regard. From what my students say, they just outright lie about what will transfer. And they are taking advantage of often very inexperienced people which just infuriates me. "Trust us--we're Christian!" :angry-banghead:

Totally agree about the dishonesty thing. As for the students coming from some accredited colleges, especially community colleges, I agree too, that they are often woefully underprepared. But it is possible to be even less prepared than that, and that is what I was thinking of when I replied.

:roll:

[Vivi_music]

If Joe is still indeed at Clown College, I hope he's enjoying it in a way. It doesn't sound like a very ''free'' environment but at least he's far from the TTH. I imagine that anything (even such restrictive rules as Crown college) must be more pleasant than the atmosphere in back on the compound.

[Tangy Bee]

That school sounds so boring and limited. I can't believe so many people attend and are ok with it being unaccredited. Most of the people I know get jobs at private christian schools or religious organizations.

[nastyhobbitses]

A walled campus with gates that shut out students at curfew every night with a guard you had to talk to to let you in. If you were out past curfew you had to sign your name so you could get in trouble later.

Not being able to go in the grass in front of opposite sex dorms. Must stay on the sidewalk! We all know lusting can happen in grass. It almost doesn't need to be said, but there was no going in opposite sex dorms.

Uniforms. They had to wear business casual to class. Girls could not wear pants to class.

I remember one girl told me her brother, who went to the same school, and her dad had to wait outside her dorm because they weren't allowed in. Only on moving in and moving out day.

I think one building still had separate entrances for men and women. I couldn't tell if that was a joke or serious. Like maybe it was like that, but it wasn't a rule anymore and people still followed it out of habit?

In direct opposition to my school where there were coed dorms, basically no rules about drinking, teachers routinely smoked pot with students, extremely defrauding plays were held with fake bjs and everything! We had a random day in the spring where classes were cancelled and the school put on a big party with inflatables and everyone got up at 6am and got drunk and played all day. There was a mudpit.

Mine had coed dorms, a lot of looking the other way about drinking as long as it wasn't too loud or wild (they started cracking down more after I graduated because of some rather unfortunate incidents), ridiculously defrauding plays (I fake-smoked weed, had simulated interspecies sex, and danced around with a 15-inch-long purple dildo in one show), the campus convenience store had to add a "bottoms required as well" addendum to their "no shirt, no shoes, no service" sign because enough people tested the rule, most people at graduation were hungover (myself included), and I'd hear the phrase "guys, I think it's light outside again, wtf" at a lot of parties I attended.

[hennypenny]

Oh no. Bless Joseph. There is an IG picture of him where in the comments people are saying that he is Josh and calling him all sorts of horrible names. They do really look alike. :(

edited: this has probably been covered I just saw that it's an old pic. But really, poor Joseph.

[clueliss]

By the way - I suspect Joe did return to CC since Lawson Bates was in Ark this weekend and I'm thinking based on last year that Joe and Lawson are travel buddies.

[Jenesis]

Oh no. Bless Joseph. There is an IG picture of him where in the comments people are saying that he is Josh and calling him all sorts of horrible names. They do really look alike. :(

edited: this has probably been covered I just saw that it's an old pic. But really, poor Joseph.

I think they look alike because of their straight eyebrows. Josh has a really goofy look to him while I don't think Joseph does. All of the Duggars have straight eyebrows, except for Jana, she has an arch.

[Geechee Girl]

I'm going to drift a little, but bear with me.

Regarding PHC's higher-than-average academic standards, which homeschool graduates past or present would be able to hack it? The only fundie family that comes to my mind is the Jeubs. I know we like to snark on the SOTDRT and unschooling, but are there exceptional families who are doing it right? Right equaling actually providing a college prep education?

I'm uncertain if this topic requires its own thread.

[Cleopatra7]

I'm going to drift a little, but bear with me.

Regarding PHC's higher-than-average academic standards, which homeschool graduates past or present would be able to hack it? The only fundie family that comes to my mind is the Jeubs. I know we like to snark on the SOTDRT and unschooling, but are there exceptional families who are doing it right? Right equaling actually providing a college prep education?

I'm uncertain if this topic requires its own thread.

I think the Duggars' definition of doing the SOTDRT right differs from how most FJers would define it. Most FJers would say that successful homeschooling would involve allowing the child or children in question to reach their full potential as human beings and learners. This could mean going to college, trade school, or the military, but the child(ren) would be free to choose their path in life. The Duggars' definition of success is creating children who act and believe exactly like JB and Michelle, which means staying in the ATI orbit, isolationist homeschooling, no brick and mortar school (unless it's some worthless "bible college), no birth control, and strict gender roles. I think if one of their kids became a liberal Christian who believes in evolution and public schools, JB and Michelle would think they've failed.

Also I think it's unfortunate, but not surprising, that Joseph is being tarred with the same brush as Josh. Part of the problem is that the family is seen as a single unit, not as a group of twenty-one separate individuals (and attitude that JB and Michelle encouraged), so it's easy for outsiders to assume that if Josh is a certain way then all the kids must be the same way.

[Geechee Girl]

I agree Michelle has failed as a home educator. I'm curious to which families (by FJ standards) have prepared their offspring for the accredited Patrick Henry College. PHC was mentioned earlier in this thread as having a rigorous academic program.

[Themiscyran]

I agree Michelle has failed as a home educator. I'm curious to which families (by FJ standards) have prepared their offspring for the accredited Patrick Henry College. PHC was mentioned earlier in this thread as having a rigorous academic program.

I would not call Patrick Henry "rigorous," but I'd call it more rigorous than Crown College. They don't have SACS accreditation (regional body, gold standard) but, looking at their faculty list, most of their faculty DO have degrees from real SACS-accredited institutions, unlike Crown, whose faculty largely have their graduate work at other accredited institutions.The history professor at PHC has degrees from Vanderbilt and Harvard--not shabby. I would call a "rigorous" place somewhere like Regents, or someplace like Wheaton which is one of the most respected conservative Christian schools.

Still, PHC's catalog ( phc.edu/UserFiles/File/academics/20152016CatalogFINAL.pdf ) emphasizes the classical liberal arts. Looking at the history major, they have to take a core of math, science, government, history, literature, philosophy, classics, theology, and music, in addition to their specific major and minor requirements. Without delving into syllabi, I can't tell how well developed the courses are.

But how many of the Duggard type homeschoolers really let their kids explore, say, Socrates and Plato? How many teach real physics? The literature major includes Chaucer, Milton, Shakespeare, and Dickens. Do the Duggars read these authors? In how much depth? The literature profs include PhDs from Northeastern and Kansas--again, those are real schools. One of them says he focuses on the Inklings--C.S. Lewis, Tolkein and the like. I'm curious if the Duggars have read any of the Inklings?

Crown College, with its distinct lack of liberal arts, seems to cater to anti-intellectual fundies like the Duggars. But having said that, I've known plenty of fundie/conservative Christians who DO read Lewis and Shakespeare. (There's a small thread here: viewtopic.php?f=114&t=24770 )

I really think any fundamentalist family that reads books like that would have kids reasonably well prepared for a place like PHC, at least on the liberal arts side of things. (disclaimer: my PhD is in history, so I'm not as well equipped to gage science programs.) By contrast, Crown offers mainly vocational/professional programs that don't require so much philosophy, critical thinking, etc.

On a personal note, I've taught students in more than one state (including Arkansas) who were home-schooled. Many were fundies; some were extremely well-prepared. The ones that weren't are usually those who think they can ignore a topic or disregard it because it doesn't fit their world view--i.e., instead of trying to understand Darwin's significance (even if they disagree w/ his theories) they just skip those paragraphs and act like they will be contaminated if they read about him.

tl;dr Homeschooling fundies who let their kids read widely and who explain stuff they don't agree with thoroughly (even if they then also explain how all that stuff is wrongity wrong wrong)--those kids probably do pretty well. Homeschoolers who don't read Shakespeare because he's immodest and skip everything about Darwin because he's evil---those kids would struggle. And homeschoolers like the Duggars who are just profoundly anti-intellectual on top of their ideology--frankly, I think it's miraculous if their kids end up with any sort of curiosity at all, let alone get through a place like PHC.

REALLY tl;dr Let the kids read and then explain why the stuff you think is wrong is wrong and the kids will do okay. Censor everything and sneer and intellectual pursuits, and the kids will really only be prepared for Crown College and the like.

[CallmeChaCha]

I'm curious if the Duggars have read any of the Inklings?

I'm willing to bet my left kidney that, no, they've probably never heard of, let alone read, the Inklings.

On the hand, yes, Joseph gets to leave the house, but how much is he really gaining at that school? He gets to potentially interact with more non-related, fundie-lite people, but it's still a side-huggin, skirt-wearin, fundieland experience. He gets to be away from the circus, which I'm sure he's appreciating right about now but it doesn't seem like he really gets to expand his universe beyond the one he lived in at home. :shrug:

[Themiscyran]

I'm willing to bet my left kidney that, no, they've probably never heard of, let alone read, the Inklings.

On the hand, yes, Joseph gets to leave the house, but how much is he really gaining at that school? He gets to potentially interact with more non-related, fundie-lite people, but it's still a side-huggin, skirt-wearin, fundieland experience. He gets to be away from the circus, which I'm sure he's appreciating right about now but it doesn't seem like he really gets to expand his universe beyond the one he lived in at home. :shrug:

Yeah, it doesn't seem too likely to me that they'd have read any Inklings, let alone known the group existed.

I mean, C.S. Lewis is pretty far from a feminist (!!!!) but, just talking Narnia: female characters who don't defer automatically to their older brothers/male characters, female characters who wear men's clothing (of necessity but still), depictions of people drinking wine and dancing at feasts....!!!!!! His Mars trilogy has all kinds of complicated imagery including the idea of an Eve who chose not to sin... how would that EVER pass muster?

There are definitely conservative Pxians who like to debate position A vs position B, even if both are very very conservative. The Duggars are definitely not among these. So, among fundie royalty/fame.....who is?

[EmCatlyn]

I would not call Patrick Henry "rigorous," but I'd call it more rigorous than Crown College. ...

I really think any fundamentalist family that reads books like that would have kids reasonably well prepared for a place like PHC, at least on the liberal arts side of things. (disclaimer: my PhD is in history, so I'm not as well equipped to gage science programs.) By contrast, Crown offers mainly vocational/professional programs that don't require so much philosophy, critical thinking, etc.

On a personal note, I've taught students in more than one state (including Arkansas) who were home-schooled. Many were fundies; some were extremely well-prepared. The ones that weren't are usually those who think they can ignore a topic or disregard it because it doesn't fit their world view--i.e., instead of trying to understand Darwin's significance (even if they disagree w/ his theories) they just skip those paragraphs and act like they will be contaminated if they read about him.

tl;dr Homeschooling fundies who let their kids read widely and who explain stuff they don't agree with thoroughly (even if they then also explain how all that stuff is wrongity wrong wrong)--those kids probably do pretty well. Homeschoolers who don't read Shakespeare because he's immodest and skip everything about Darwin because he's evil---those kids would struggle. And homeschoolers like the Duggars who are just profoundly anti-intellectual on top of their ideology--frankly, I think it's miraculous if their kids end up with any sort of curiosity at all, let alone get through a place like PHC.

REALLY tl;dr Let the kids read and then explain why the stuff you think is wrong is wrong and the kids will do okay. Censor everything and sneer and intellectual pursuits, and the kids will really only be prepared for Crown College and the like.

Agree completely. I too have taught fundie homeschooled students and the ones who are given a solid background in "great books" and so forth may be biased and disinclined to question received knowledge but they can handle a college curriculum.

[Themiscyran]

Agree completely. I too have taught fundie homeschooled students and the ones who are given a solid background in "great books" and so forth may be biased and disinclined to question received knowledge but they can handle a college curriculum.

"Great Books" can sooooo be used as a jumping-off point for independent thought. I mean, if you take the books that helped inspire revolutionaries like Jefferson (no matter how limited his vision was) then you can inspire all kinds of revolution. I've done it somewhat intentionally with my students in "great books" curricula (including pushing them to include voices like Aphra Behn, Mary Shelly, Chinua Achebe) but even with the narrowest "great books" definition and the least encouragement, the potential is SO THERE.

[EmCatlyn]

"Great Books" can sooooo be used as a jumping-off point for independent thought. I mean, if you take the books that helped inspire revolutionaries like Jefferson (no matter how limited his vision was) then you can inspire all kinds of revolution. I've done it somewhat intentionally with my students in "great books" curricula (including pushing them to include voices like Aphra Behn, Mary Shelly, Chinua Achebe) but even with the narrowest "great books" definition and the least encouragement, the potential is SO THERE.

Absolutely. Besides, a homeschooler (or even the graduate of a Christian school or an ordinary Bible Belt high school) may have a rather limited reading of, say, The Scarlet Letter , But if they have read it, you can build on that and introduce them to new ways of seeing the story and the characters. Then there is the possibility of expanding horizons, as you say. The canon is ever expanding.

:dance: