Alyssa Bates/Webster is wearing PANTS!!

[RosyDaisy]

I don’t understand this new FJ trend where everything we snark on or discuss has to be immediately followed by “They’re still hateful evil fundies!â€

Seriously? That question doesn't deserve an answer.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Food for thought:

Alyssa attended college just to please her mom but was glad to quit and start planning her wedding. She was really looking forward to being a wife and mentioned in the ABC special that she didn't want to start working because she would quit anyway when she'd get pregnant.

She occasionally wears pants now.

Erin was very much into her college education, even though she was scared at first if she'd be able to keep up with the other non-home-schooled students. She got a bachelor's degree and graduated magna cum laude with honors, even though she got married and had her first miscarriage in the meantime.

She is dresses-only (as far as we know).

Just sayin'.

BTW I am totally fine with both Alyssa's choice to wear pants as well as to be a stay-at-home mom at 20 if she wants to. I just think it's odd that people make her wearing pants to be this mind-blowing attitude change.

The Websters wear pants. They are still ATI. The Duggar's friend Laura (who is very into ATI) wears pants and she is best friends with Tori Webster. Tori Webster is ATI-involved. Dakota Paine even wears shorts and she is also very ATI-involved. Brandon Keilen's sisters wear pants sometimes and are ATI involved. It's really not about dresses VS pants.

I went to college because my parents wanted me to. I was more than happy to give it up, and (despite YEARS of nagging from all my relatives since then) I'd be more than happy if I never had to go back. And, if I had the opportunity to be a stay at home mom, I would be. I love raising kids and I'd rather not have to work. And none of this is because I was raised to believe that a woman's place is at home. It's just my own feelings about my life.

I really dont think that being a stay at home mom and getting pregnant asap means that she's forever doomed to be a fundie.

I'll agree that I don't think pants and a sleeveless top are proof that she's not going to be a fundie. However, it is proof that she's questioning her upbringing. That's something. Even if she arrives back where she started, she still questioned, and that's an important milestone everyone should have the freedom to experience in their life time.

[LittleOleMe]

I went to college because my parents wanted me to. I was more than happy to give it up, and (despite YEARS of nagging from all my relatives since then) I'd be more than happy if I never had to go back. And, if I had the opportunity to be a stay at home mom, I would be. I love raising kids and I'd rather not have to work. And none of this is because I was raised to believe that a woman's place is at home. It's just my own feelings about my life.

Same here. I never wanted to go to college but it wasn't much a choice for me. I was told over and over that I just had to give a chance and if I didn't like it, I could leave. Of course, when I did leave my parents freaked out. When I brought up the previous statement, their answer was "well we never expected you to actually leave" :roll: I wasn't raised fundie by any means, but I would be more than happy to be a stay at home mom, raising my home schooled children. That's just what makes me happy. :shrug:

[August]

I can't understand why people think these hardcore fundies have to completely change their beliefs to be decent people. What they need to do is realize that they are free to live their way and everyone else is, too. I see people say things like I will believe they have changed when I see them at a gay pride parade or, like here, endorse gay marriage. These people truly believe these things are sinful. Shouldn't it be good enough for them to stop trying to take away the rights of others while maintaining their core beliefs? I believe a lot of them will get to that point.

And wow! She looks so normal!

Maybe, except their beliefs include child abuse.

[PurpleSheepleEater]

A point which needs to be made is that Alyssa is only wearing pants because her husband is allowing her to. Sure she wants to, but if he says she can't she won't. And the price she paid to be able to wear said pants? Marrying uber young and becoming pregnant almost immediately.

So, yeah, sure, great. She's wearing pants. She's still trapped in a horrible patriarchal system where most of her value is in her smilies, her nods and her uterus.

[rosaline]

I grew up in a very conservative Mormon area of the US. I'm not LDS myself, but I was surrounded by them and have some relatives who are, and my joy in Alyssa wearing pants is related to what I have seen from all the Mormons I personally know. Wearing a certain style of very modest dress--long shorts, nothing sleeveless, t shirts under anything revealing to make them more modest--is not just a custom but also an identifier. It's a very obvious, external, concrete sign of their beliefs. In all the hundreds of Mormon girls I know, I can only think of three whom I have ever seen wear something against what they grew up being taught was okay (normal length shorts rather than Bermudas, for example), and they are all girls that moved away from the local area after marriage. (Not to say that others didn't; these are just the ones I know of.) Wearing something that you weren't allowed to wear growing up is, while not a voiced change in political or religious beliefs, a very obvious declaration of having a different opinion than her parents. That's why I think it's brave, especially for a relatively visible person--Alyssa has to know that people will notice what she wears and take meaning from it.

It reminds me of the "wear pants to church" movement among some Mormon women, which is something that's Simply Not Done in the more conservative congregations. Clothing norms are a fundamental piece of religious identity that are given outsize emphasis in these communities, but that is why Alyssa doing something different does mean something to me.

Will she ever break farther away from her parents? Who knows, pants may be the extent of it. But still, only wearing skirts would be no sign of breaking away.

As for the discussion of it not counting because her headship must have approved: yeah, probably. But I think on some level that does still consist of her making a choice for herself--she knew she had to marry an ATI fundie, so she found an ATI fundie that agreed with her clothing beliefs.

(Edited to fix typos. Typing on a phone is THE WORST.)

[August]

She looks lovely and happy :)

Ever read Gibbon's Decline and Fall by Sheri Tepper?

[browncoatslytherin]

In one of the earlier Duggar shows I remember the Bates girls wearing loud, matching frumpers that had me wondering if they were color-blind. I'm pretty sure Kelly said that it was their choice to dress that way, to honor the Lord or some such. I realize this doesn't answer the question of enforcement, if it was said to be their choice, but they definitely weren't dressing the same way as they are now.

lawd, yes, they were more frumperlicious than the duggars, if that was possible. and sure, kelly, i'm sure that was their choice. because when no other option is presented as a valid alternative, that's totally a choice. :roll: not buying it, kell bells.

[moon rocks]

Boy, I'm sure glad no one at FJ knew about me when I was 19 (20?).

I was just a couple years out of a conservative Christian home and still believed the "homosexuality is a sin" line. Plus, I was pro-life, in theory. I wasn't active in either of those political realms, but if you asked me, those were the beliefs I would have stated.

I guess... I mean, I know Gil and Kelly are members of a hateful cult that they joined on purpose. That's a shitty, shitty move that reflects the kind of people they are. But their kids didn't ask to join. It's one thing to hold Josh Duggar responsible for his choices despite being raised in a cult. I mean, he's married, in his (late?) 20s now and works for a fucking hate group. But Alyssa is barely an adult and has only been out of the house for a few months. She's not going to chop off her hair, get a bikini, and start voting Democrat because she's secretly been a progressive Christian all along. It's a process. We won't know if she will mature into more accepting beliefs for a while. But, dammit, can't we cut some of these brand spankin' new adults some slack, especially when we've never seen them espousing the hateful views of their parents?

I guess that means I'm a Bates leghumper now.

This has many similarities to my upbringing as fundie-lite. However, after going further and further away from how I was raised, now in my mid forties, I'm the polar opposite of what I was then. And as such, I still wake up with night terrors probably five times a week, scared and screaming that I'm going to hell. So, if twenty odd years of "being different" than how I was indoctrinated can't undo the subliminal damage that was done, how can there NOT be baby steps to get from Point A to Point Z? I applaud any movement in the right direction, no matter how (or with whose authority) it comes about.

[BrownieMomma]

What Rosaline says about clothing as identifiers - two examples.

1. My current Pentecostal church - this is how it was explained to me. Women wear skirts and all wear long sleeves not because Jesus said we had to wear that clothing but to stand apart from the world. When I go to work and have short hair and wear pants, I am identifying with "the world" the evil, feminist, god-hating, abortion-getting world.

2. That girl Olivia, the young fundie, posted a pic of herself wearing modest workout clothes. Some commentor left a few choices words about not looking the world but Olivia should look set apart - I suppose the Duggars running a marathon in jeans meets that commenter's approval.

Alyssa in jeans and a sleeveless top with her husband smiling at her - this signals a departure for the young couple. They are sending a strong message.

[nokidsmom]

lawd, yes, they were more frumperlicious than the duggars, if that was possible. and sure, kelly, i'm sure that was their choice. because when no other option is presented as a valid alternative, that's totally a choice. :roll: not buying it, kell bells.

Oh those frumpers on the Bates girls were indeed unbelievable. I wouldn't believe for a minute that they actually choose those things. Maybe the younger girls but good lord, Erin looked like a modern Ellie May in a frumper dress.

They probably made those things from one type of pattern (similar to Amish) and the fabrics had to have been bought from the craft store. On sale. And /or it was donated.

I suspect that all the recent family escapees married kids are relishing their freedom to one extent or another. Erin gets her pink bedroom and Alyssa decides to wear jeans. How far any of them will go as far as not following their parents' beliefs remains to be seen. Right now, while I count myself as part of the "Kelly and Gil are not as nice as they seem" camp, the kids I will give some slack because they have had no choice but to follow their parents. Their parents often spoke for them. The kids are dependents until marriage and of course, they are going to tow the line. It's going to take time for any of them to decide who they really are once they are out of the house, as in years.

ETA: The married kids probably don't see themselves as escapees yet but frankly in IMHO they are. I couldn't see myself surviving in that household. Or the Duggars for that matter.

[polecat]

For someone raised in a skirts-only world, choosing to not just wear pants but to be photographed in them is a HUGE thing. First, you are told your entire life that modesty is your job as a woman. Wearing "that which pertaineth to a man" is anti-Bible, but pants also outline your butt, crotch and thighs and could cause a man to stumble, thereby making YOU a party to his mental adultery (lust). You are steeped in this mindset from the time you're old enough to swing on the swings at the playground (because then your mom has to teach you what you can't do since your undies would show and cause men/little boys to stumble, blah blah blah).

So the fact that she's wearing pants may not mean she's totally detoxed. She may still hold quite a few harmful or hateful beliefs. But she's also sending a really strong statement here. She's rejecting the idea that she could be responsible for another person's sins. She's taking ownership of her own body and fashion choices. And the taking pictures? I can't even express how big of a deal this is ... let's just say that even after I'd moved out of my parents' house, even after I'd long since left their belief system, even after I was married -- I still tried to follow my parents' modesty rules when around them because I felt so exposed and immodest when I didn't.

That's my two cents as another of those who lived in it. You don't just grow up and voila -- detox! It's a process, and it can take many years to rid yourself of the brainwashing. What looks like baby steps to outsiders can actually be a massive step forward for them.

[halcionne]

Accoridng the bateses website, John was born in 89. I am a little surprised they don't have their own website. Just that wedding site. Or am I missing it??

ETA: batesfamilyblog.com/p/birthdays.html

Thanks for the link, idk how I missed it; I have that blog in my feedly. I don't know of a John & Alyssa blog either.

[LittleOleMe]

lawd, yes, they were more frumperlicious than the duggars, if that was possible. and sure, kelly, i'm sure that was their choice. because when no other option is presented as a valid alternative, that's totally a choice. :roll: not buying it, kell bells.

The Bates girls all choosing to dress like that was as much their choice as it was for the Duggar girls to all share a room. "We did it that way because that's what they really wanted". Honestly, I think they probably do/did really want that. Not because they actually did, but bc they were taught that that is what they should want. They don't teach their children how to think; they teach them what to think.

[browncoatslytherin]

The Bates girls all choosing to dress like that was as much their choice as it was for the Duggar girls to all share a room. "We did it that way because that's what they really wanted". Honestly, I think they probably do/did really want that. Not because they actually did, but bc they were taught that that is what they should want. They don't teach their children how to think; they teach them what to think.

a big fat ol' QFT to the bolded.

[PurpleSheepleEater]

Alyssa in jeans and a sleeveless top with her husband smiling at her - this signals a departure for the young couple. They are sending a strong message.

I strongly disagree. I think that the fundie world has finally realized that their whole "set apart" look is just not working for them. So they are assimilating, at least as far as appearances would allow. They look less weird, less dangerous, more cute and stylish. But the core belief system is still there and it's very strong. I am related to fundies who dress just like normal people but everything about how they order their lives is based on patriarchy and fear of the real world. They believe we are all going to hell, x2 if you use birth control or are homosexual. Don't let cute shirts and jeans fool you.

They may change. I hope they do. But a change of apparel is really nothing, she's just joined a different branding of the same beliefs.

[nokidsmom]

I strongly disagree. I think that the fundie world has finally realized that their whole "set apart" look is just not working for them. So they are assimilating, at least as far as appearances would allow. They look less weird, less dangerous, more cute and stylish. But the core belief system is still there and it's very strong. I am related to fundies who dress just like normal people but everything about how they order their lives is based on patriarchy and fear of the real world. They believe we are all going to hell, x2 if you use birth control or are homosexual. Don't let cute shirts and jeans fool you.

They may change. I hope they do. But a change of apparel is really nothing, she's just joined a different branding of the same beliefs.

I went to college with some fundies who were very, very stylish. All the current fashions, makeup and hair styles. And cute, and smiley, and friendly.....as long as you were one of them. All the while harboring beliefs that others go to hell, birth control is bad, rock music was of the devil, the outside world is scary, and people being gay....don't even go there.

[BrownieMomma]

I strongly disagree. I think that the fundie world has finally realized that their whole "set apart" look is just not working for them. So they are assimilating, at least as far as appearances would allow. They look less weird, less dangerous, more cute and stylish. But the core belief system is still there and it's very strong. I am related to fundies who dress just like normal people but everything about how they order their lives is based on patriarchy and fear of the real world. They believe we are all going to hell, x2 if you use birth control or are homosexual. Don't let cute shirts and jeans fool you.

They may change. I hope they do. But a change of apparel is really nothing, she's just joined a different branding of the same beliefs.

That may very well be true in your part of the world but be assured, it is not true here. It is a very big deal to dress to set apart from the world. The Duggars and Bates can cry modest all they want as the reason but I know enough and have been close enough to ATI folk to recognize they also value looking set apart.

If one of the young couples at my church posed for a pic like that, it would definitely be a great big FU to the church and everyone in it.

[PurpleSheepleEater]

I went to college with some fundies who were very, very stylish. All the current fashions, makeup and hair styles. And cute, and smiley, and friendly.....as long as you were one of them. All the while harboring beliefs that others go to hell, birth control is bad, rock music was of the devil, the outside world is scary, and people being gay....don't even go there.

Exactly. It can be shocking because they look so normal. Then you ask a few deep questions or attend a church service with them and realize that inside they are full of hate and fear and then a little more hate.

[PurpleSheepleEater]

That may very well be true in your part of the world but be assured, it is not true here. It is a very big deal to dress to set apart from the world. The Duggars and Bates can cry modest all they want as the reason but I know enough and have been close enough to ATI folk to recognize they also value looking set apart.

If one of the young couples at my church posed for a pic like that, it would definitely be a great big FU to the church and everyone in it.

I come from that world so I get it. My point is that there are plenty of fundies who will embrace people who dress normal. Alyssa has obviously fallen in with a family like that through her husband. The clothes don't change the beliefs though and there's a good chance they never will.

[Mandysue]

I haven't commented on this because it has been fun to read all the comments.

All of this because ONE fundie took some picture wearing pants. Geez..yeah for her; she doesn't have to wear frumpers anymore and may actually get to shop at a regular store.

Yes I know the Bateseses are mean horrible people with evil thoughts.

I didn't even grow up fundie light. My parents sent me to church on Sunday's while they stayed home. I can't even tell you what my dad thought of homosexuals because it never came up. I stayed in church as an adult because it is the only thing I have ever known.

I was forty when I realized that it was okay to question the preacher and disagree with what he said. I am still on a journey and I know I am not there yet. Ya'll probably think I am fundie light while I think I am more moderate.

It is all about baby steps. Can we be okay with baby steps? Anything away from her parents is a step in the right direction.

Yes I know the Bateseses are evil mean people with horrible thoughts that want to take away all of our rights.

[nokidsmom]

Exactly. It can be shocking because they look so normal. Then you ask a few deep questions or attend a church service with them and realize that inside they are full of hate and fear and then a little more hate.

This touches on the fear aspect.

One time, I was attending a seminar on weekends with one of these fundies. She had her own car and would drive me. She was listening to rock music and so I thought "OK she's not one of these really conservative types". Until she started talking about how rock music was of the devil and she listened to it so she would understand better about "people who worshiped Satan". :shock: Good thing it was the last day of the seminar.

[singsingsing]

That's what all those right wing male politicians who get caught with other men are doing - they're just having sex with men so they can understand the enemy. It's the elite Wide Stance For Jesus club.

[nelliebelle1197]

That may very well be true in your part of the world but be assured, it is not true here. It is a very big deal to dress to set apart from the world. The Duggars and Bates can cry modest all they want as the reason but I know enough and have been close enough to ATI folk to recognize they also value looking set apart.

If one of the young couples at my church posed for a pic like that, it would definitely be a great big FU to the church and everyone in it.

I am assuming you didn't actually read this or the other thread because it has been pointed out in several places, and confirmed by a former ATI member, that there is a section of ATI women that wear pants. John Webster's family, some of the Keilans and the Duggars' heavily ATI friend Laura are part of the pants-wearing ATI crowd.

[Knight of Ni]

All this discussion over whether or not Alyssa is actually going to change her beliefs makes me wonder if Susannah Keller received the same treatment. I did not see the discussions about her still being a fundie even if she does wear pants and cut her hair. I did not see people still calling her a hateful fundie. They expressed pleasure that she had the courage to challenge these aspects of her belief. But, there is no real evidence that Suze did change her beliefs. She may still believe that abortion for any reason is wrong. She may still believe that homosexuality is wrong. Even having a child when she is unmarried is not proof of her changing beliefs.

*If this was discussed on here, please correct me. I just did not see where it was discussed