'Abortion is not logical'

[Burris]

I recently downloaded an e-book claiming (and so named) abortion is not logical. Parts of it can be found online. I've read quite a few antichoice books - but this one is so stupid I simply cannot review it on my own.

Every page is full of idiocy - and, unfortunately, I don't have time to address even a tenth of the problems here.

smashwords.com/extreader/read/208257/1/abortion-is-not-logical

The snark potential is endless. Seriously; you do not want to miss this one.

[Emme]

I made it three pages before the complete idiocy/horrible writing made me give up. I just..... nope. :pink-shock:

[KittenMitten]

I was going to try at least review one chapter but my iPhone would not open any of the chapters. If I had believed in God I think she was looking out for me. Sorry Burris.

ETA: I guess there is no Godess as I figured out how to read this drivel. Guess what? The author is a man, I'm sure you all are surprised. He brags that he has 4 degrees, including a PhD and that he is a researcher. Good for him, degrees are hard work.

I got through nearly half although towards the end I was skimming. This book hurts! Since he was a researcher I was actually hoping for some...logic. Nope, unless it is later. He used what he thought were cute vingniettes where the anti choice person always outsmarts the pro choice person(called pro death people). With strawman logic and circular reasoning

I guess it is snark worthy but it is mostly appalling. I stopped reading when I began hyperventilating and wanted to pitch my phone across the room. Perhaps someone else stronger than I can take on this task. Good luck and have a bottle of your favorite alcholic beverage on hand.

[Burris]

I was going to try at least review one chapter but my iPhone would not open any of the chapters. If I had believed in God I think she was looking out for me. Sorry Burris.

LOL! Yes, it is that bad. I think I might try reviewing some of it. Right now, however, I'm reading The Witness Wore Red.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Made it to page 7, before I decided that I couldn't take the stupid any longer.

There's a lot that you could say about abortion issues and the decision on whether to continue a pregnancy to term and ways that society can help support things that reduce the abortion rate. This e-book says none of them.

[KittenMitten]

LOL! Yes, it is that bad. I think I might try reviewing some of it. Right now, however, I'm reading The Witness Wore Red.

Wow. That sounds like a great book. Just googled it. I wasn't sure what it was about. I was thinking it was either a nifty 1940's detective story or a a book shaming women tempting men (Nike!) by wearing tight, low cut and short red dresses. Your book sounds so much better. Enjoy.

[ExMW]

LOL! Yes, it is that bad. I think I might try reviewing some of it. Right now, however, I'm reading The Witness Wore Red.

Awesome book - but I question some of Ms.Musser's motivations. There are some moments she seems more concerned about preserving a religion she knows is full of lies than bring the perpetrators to justice.

[Burris]

Awesome book - but I question some of Ms.Musser's motivations. There are some moments she seems more concerned about preserving a religion she knows is full of lies than bring the perpetrators to justice.

I can't fault Ms. Musser for this: It's hard to let go of deep beliefs or ideologies - even when they prove to be harmful and wrong. The fact she can face up to it all, and shine a light on the worst of it, is praiseworthy to me.

Consider how that she once believed these things so strongly she sacrificed her freedom and would have done the same with her life.

That kind of indoctrination never fully heals. In fact I have little doubt that she and the other walk-aways occasionally hear that whisper in their minds: 'But these are gentiles, and our prophet warned us they would come to shatter our faith. What if we were merely the hammers they used and they care nothing for us at all?'

Sure - the rational part takes over again, but vile things taught and taken to heart can never be fully removed.

[ExMW]

I can't fault Ms. Musser for this: It's hard to let go of deep beliefs or ideologies - even when they prove to be harmful and wrong. The fact she can face up to it all, and shine a light on the worst of it, is praiseworthy to me.

Consider how that she once believed these things so strongly she sacrificed her freedom and would have done the same with her life.

That kind of indoctrination never fully heals. In fact I have little doubt that she and the other walk-aways occasionally hear that whisper in their minds: 'But these are gentiles, and our prophet warned us they would come to shatter our faith. What if we were merely the hammers they used and they care nothing for us at all?'

Sure - the rational part takes over again, but vile things taught and taken to heart can never be fully removed.

I believe that with the right amount of therapy and deprogramming that type of indoctrination can be eliminated from the person's belief system - they just have to be willing to go to therapy and spend the time it takes to let go. It took me seven and a half years. A woman I work with, who was raised FDLS (up in Canada, she was never subjected to Warren, she was a Winston) spent eleven years in therapy to get beyond all she was taught. She still believes in God, she just doesn't believe in the forced ideology that she grew up with. Giving that up is hard but it can be done, the person just has to want to give it up entirely in order to really move forward and make spiritual improvements in their life. As far as I know Rebecca Musser has done all of her own self-help without the outside input of any type of therapist - Deepak Chopra can only go so far when one has been brainwashed to that extent.

[Burris]

I believe that with the right amount of therapy and deprogramming that type of indoctrination can be eliminated from the person's belief system - they just have to be willing to go to therapy and spend the time it takes to let go. It took me seven and a half years. A woman I work with, who was raised FDLS (up in Canada, she was never subjected to Warren, she was a Winston) spent eleven years in therapy to get beyond all she was taught. She still believes in God, she just doesn't believe in the forced ideology that she grew up with. Giving that up is hard but it can be done, the person just has to want to give it up entirely in order to really move forward and make spiritual improvements in their life. As far as I know Rebecca Musser has done all of her own self-help without the outside input of any type of therapist - Deepak Chopra can only go so far when one has been brainwashed to that extent.

While I appreciate the efforts you've made to...detoxify, and won't presume to question how effective your actions have been, my opinion on this has not changed: No amount of therapy can change the past or erase wrong acts.

If indeed you and your coworker have finally silenced that voice, I applaud you - but I think you're in error to judge Ms. Musser the way you just did.

I sincerely hope you did shake off the propaganda. Best not to judge others for not sharing your rare, rare good fortune.

[ExMW]

Honestly Burris, it's not rare good fortune. People make it out of fundyville and survive to good ends all the time. It's just that it's a process. The process isn't fun, nor is it easy, but it can be done. I'm a social worker who works with people who leave toxic religious environments. (I work with IPV and human trafficking victims as well.) I wouldn't be allowed to do what I do if I hadn't had the therapy and training it took to turn me around. (Rule number one of social work grad school, if your issues aren't dealt with, you shouldn't be there... :) )

Deprogramming is a process. I once had a professor state that it could take two weeks to break a person and brainwash them to follow every order you give but it could take up to a minimum of five years to help that same person deprogram and it should never be done on their own, with no help at all. At the time I thought it was a bit far fetched but now, years later? If anything I've learned through my clients is that self-help can do far more damage for victims of religious abuse than it can do good.

That's not to say all cases work out, they don't. Sometimes the voices never go away but it's been my experience that when that happens the person has a certain comfort level with them and doesn't want to let them go. I think for Ms. Musser, because her mother and sisters are still trapped inside, she holds onto certain aspects of the ideology because they're a connection - really the only connection she has for them at this point. It's good that she uses music as a conduit for her frustrations and cleansing, artistic expression is one of the best ways to clear one's head when dealing with those voices of the past.

I didn't mean to sound judgmental or disrespectful, she did a lot that others didn't dare to do - I just hated to see that it still grips at her so much that it affects her decision making in certain instances. Nobody should have to live like that, especially after escaping a psychotic like Warren.

[Burris]

Honestly Burris, it's not rare good fortune. People make it out of fundyville and survive to good ends all the time.

I think you may have misunderstood me. people survive trauma, people survive cults, people survive indoctrination - and some of those people then go on to live successful, happy lives: They bear children. They hold jobs.

But consider for a moment all the people with PTSD (or PITS)

They do all the same things everyone else does: They pay bills, buy groceries, go to movies - and yet for some people, they are ever conscious of the difference between themselves and others.

I know there is a danger in my case of generalizing based on the people I myself have met, and yet I have encountered enough people of all sorts who do seem to live normal lives - no one would ever suspect anything had gone wrong for them at all - and yet they do hear that "voice"; something, someone triggers a loose-floating artifact of their former indoctrination - the propaganda, paranoia, fear, and lies they once believed so strongly they were willing to die for them' to kill for them; to sacrifice their freedom for them

For a former fundamentalist, this might translate into things such as, "that woman is dressed In a defrauding manner and therefore must have loose morals." It may come out as, "that woman shouldn't let her flamboyantly homosexual brother babysit her sons for fear he'll molest them."

...the they pause for a moment and think about that they have learned since they started letting go of such toxic beliefs. That hateful voice is silent again. But not forever.

For Musser, who describes some happy memories of her childhood and even some really good lessons as taught by her mother - a woman whom she admired - I expect there is a tension between the knowledge that even the best parts of her upbringing were fruits of a poisoned tree and yet some of those fruits have helped to form her. She is what she is because of her past - an immutable past that leaves marks.

It's just that it's a process.

It's a process that could take a lifetime.

I guess what I found a little unsettling about your remark is that you claim Musser may not have undergone formal therapy and that Deepak Chopra can only take one so far - as if maybe that were the reason why she still defends elements of the cult in which she was raised.

She went to court and spoke out against a man whom she once believed was a prophet. She likely defied incredible fear in doing this.

That doesn't mean she is beyond criticism, although I can see how it might have sounded like I was saying that. It does mean, however, that the way she has chosen to handle her past is successful enough to have saved other people the pain she experienced. And really, beyond that, what more should she be expected to do?

The process isn't fun, nor is it easy, but it can be done.

No, it isn't easy. It isn't fun. And for some people - more, I suspect, then you may see - it never ends.

I'm a social worker who works with people who leave toxic religious environments. (I work with IPV and human trafficking victims as well.) I wouldn't be allowed to do what I do if I hadn't had the therapy and training it took to turn me around. (Rule number one of social work grad school, if your issues aren't dealt with, you shouldn't be there... :) )

I have no doubt you have been successful in helping a lot of people reintegrate after having undergone traumatic experiences. Your efforts, coupled to long-term therapy, may allow them to function.

But I firmly believe that everything that happens to a person leaves its mark; it's a part of their past, and a part of what formed them. They can no more escape that then they can escape the fact they exist at all.

Do you truly believe - and this a genuine question; not some rhetorical trap - that people who have been trafficked as slaves, people who have committed brutal acts in war, people who have served since infancy in cults, people who have been forced into prostitution, people who have been imprisoned in inhumane conditions, and all these other sorts with horrors in their pasts can actually pass even a single day - no matter how much therapy they have undergone, and no matter how much all that effort has helped them - without looking around at least once at everyone milling around them and sensing a gulf between themselves and those who have not seen what they have seen?

Do you believe someone raised to think, for example, that Jews run the banks, can grow up and escape that belief so completely that it never passes through his or her mind? That individual may not even believe such nonsense - not on any level. And yet the words driven into them sometimes drift out of memory.

Deprogramming is a process. I once had a professor state that it could take two weeks to break a person and brainwash them to follow every order you give but it could take up to a minimum of five years to help that same person deprogram and it should never be done on their own, with no help at all. At the time I thought it was a bit far fetched but now, years later? If anything I've learned through my clients is that self-help can do far more damage for victims of religious abuse than it can do good.

That may well be true, and yet it creates a difficult situation for someone who has been taught therapy is evil; a devil's science. They have come to recognize their beliefs on many things are wrong, but to shed this particular belief means making themselves absolutely vulnerable to someone who may be a total stranger and trusting that this individual will not betray their trust or worse.

That's not to say all cases work out, they don't. Sometimes the voices never go away but it's been my experience that when that happens the person has a certain comfort level with them and doesn't want to let them go.

That is not a fair assertion.

You will encounter people who cannot completely overcome their pasts, but to blame them for this - rather than merely accepting that your therapy protocols did not work in these particular cases - is wrong-headed. It may be that the correct protocols have yet to be invented, or that they exist but were not used, or that the medication and behaviour modification therapy worked only partially for reasons that could be physiological: You know long-term exposure to stress actually changes brain chemistry.

I hate to put it this bluntly, but your statement above reads as if you (a) believe anything less than total success is failure, and (b) that this failure is ultimately the fault of the client.

I think for Ms. Musser, because her mother and sisters are still trapped inside, she holds onto certain aspects of the ideology because they're a connection - really the only connection she has for them at this point. It's good that she uses music as a conduit for her frustrations and cleansing, artistic expression is one of the best ways to clear one's head when dealing with those voices of the past.

You may well be correct, here.

I didn't mean to sound judgmental or disrespectful, she did a lot that others didn't dare to do - I just hated to see that it still grips at her so much that it affects her decision making in certain instances. Nobody should have to live like that, especially after escaping a psychotic like Warren.

I think I see where you're coming from.

As to the matter of just how successful therapy can be in handling every aspect of a toxic past, we may just have to agree to disagree.

[ExMW]

I have no doubt you have been successful in helping a lot of people reintegrate after having undergone traumatic experiences. Your efforts, coupled to long-term therapy, may allow them to function.

I'm a specialist - all of our clients our referred by their therapists in order to deal with specific issues that the client is struggling with.

Do you truly believe - and this a genuine question; not some rhetorical trap - that people who have been trafficked as slaves, people who have committed brutal acts in war, people who have served since infancy in cults, people who have been forced into prostitution, people who have been imprisoned in inhumane conditions, and all these other sorts with horrors in their pasts can actually pass even a single day - no matter how much therapy they have undergone, and no matter how much all that effort has helped them - without looking around at least once at everyone milling around them and sensing a gulf between themselves and those who have not seen what they have seen?

Each of those traumas are specific traumas that carry their own ramifications. I am not under the delusion that victims just up and forget everything with a little therapy. They deal with flashbacks, they deal with nightmares, they have trust issues, they have PTSD issues (which I also know way too much about, my late husband was a two tour Persian Gulf vet who drank himself to death) - but they deal with them. They go to their therapist, they see their counselors, they continue to work on their issues and move forward without purposely looking back and embracing what traumatized them in the first place. That's what I was saying.

Do you believe someone raised to think, for example, that Jews run the banks, can grow up and escape that belief so completely that it never passes through his or her mind? That individual may not even believe such nonsense - not on any level. And yet the words driven into them sometimes drift out of memory.

I've actually met people who, at one time, believed things like this and, once they were told otherwise, they dismissed the belief.

You will encounter people who cannot completely overcome their pasts, but to blame them for this - rather than merely accepting that your therapy protocols did not work in these particular cases - is wrong-headed. It may be that the correct protocols have yet to be invented, or that they exist but were not used, or that the medication and behaviour modification therapy worked only partially for reasons that could be physiological: You know long-term exposure to stress actually changes brain chemistry.

I'm not blaming the victim - I'm stating that they need to be open to the prospect of therapy. It may work, it may not work, but at least they tried. (And I'm all for medications, I just don't prescribe them, that's the therapist's job. I just encourage them to take them because you're right - prolonged exposure to stress adversely affects the brain's neurotransmitters.

I hate to put it this bluntly, but your statement above reads as if you (a) believe anything less than total success is failure, and (b) that this failure is ultimately the fault of the client.

I do not believe that anything less than total success is failure. I DO believe, though, that if somebody is not willing to work on their issues then they have no right to complain about them and yes, I've heard therapists tell clients this point blank.

As to the matter of just how successful therapy can be in handling every aspect of a toxic past, we may just have to agree to disagree.

I can agree to disagree - even though I'm well aware that therapy can't handle every aspect of a toxic past. I just believe that people need to expose themselves to the prospect of therapy because without it the trauma will always be with them in every way shape and form. With therapy issues can be lessened if not eradicated.

[KittenMitten]

I'm a social worker also. Not with spiritual abuse survivors, but other abuse survivors. I've found abuse survivors can mostly find peace with hard work and support but there will always be the unexpected trigger.

I've experienced spiritual abuse. Nothing terrible, my parents were ok. They went to church because it was the right thing to do, but we didn't even say grace. For me it was more wrong place, wrong time. As a tween and teen at my church I knew Christian bullies who were poster children for good Christians but bullied me. Even worse, in about 4th grade there was a comic book shared around the Sunday school classroom. When I finally got to take it home to read, I was so excited! It was about rapture. The main character was this nice little boy who didn't always go to church and was perhaps a bit sassy. But he still was a good kid. However he couldn't figure this whole just accept Jesus as your savior thing. Just like me. I didn't understand it. Anyway, when rapture happened he was left behind. A little boy around 10 or so. No parents, no friends. How terrifying that was for me. I still have that voice 40 years later-a tiny little voice lives in my head no matter how hard I try to get rid of it. I can't imagine how people who were actually, like Ms. Musser, brainwashed and abused can stand up to their abusers. I stand in awe of them.

[ExMW]

Kitten, I can't count the people who've come to me with rapture issues. Churches around the country really terrorized their children throughout the seventies and eighties with that stuff and that produced some very fearful adults. That's one trauma I can totally empathize with. When I was little they made us sit through this wretched movie called "Thief in the Night". That thing caused nightmares for years for every kid in the room, myself included. For me that WAS a trigger for a long time - until I discovered that the entire rapture phenomenon came from John Darby in 1830 and there is some evidence that he got the idea from some woman who'd claimed she'd dreamed about it. Everything that we'd been taught, everything that they drilled into us was utter bullshit. The verses they used, the settings they developed, it was all taken out of context and misinterpreted. I encourage clients who have issues with the rapture to research the topic and a lot of them find peace in doing so. (Some of them didn't even realize that they could research the topic because they'd been told that this was the way it was and that was that...)

And you're right about the Christian bullies - there are so many out there it's not even funny. you believe the way we do or you're going to hell. Sadly it's an age old game that I find very frustrating at times. For every person that escapes Fundyville there's twenty or thirty more trapped in that pew.

[KittenMitten]

Thanks, ExMW. That movie sounds appalling. Sorry you were stuck with it. I did not even know there were experts in spiritual abuse. That must be interesting. I will touch on beliefs with my clients but not the focus of treatment. Thanks also for the info on John Darby. I guess I'm not surprised it's a recent phenomenon. My head knows it's bullshit, but that (mostly quiet now) voice and the memory of that little boy....

The recent Left Behind movies seem so silly. Like Jesus meets Top Gun.

Well, thanks again. Writing at freejinger is helping!

[formergothardite]

Kitten, I can't count the people who've come to me with rapture issues. Churches around the country really terrorized their children throughout the seventies and eighties with that stuff and that produced some very fearful adults. That's one trauma I can totally empathize with. When I was little they made us sit through this wretched movie called "Thief in the Night". That thing caused nightmares for years for every kid in the room, myself included. For me that WAS a trigger for a long time - until I discovered that the entire rapture phenomenon came from John Darby in 1830 and there is some evidence that he got the idea from some woman who'd claimed she'd dreamed about it. Everything that we'd been taught, everything that they drilled into us was utter bullshit. The verses they used, the settings they developed, it was all taken out of context and misinterpreted. I encourage clients who have issues with the rapture to research the topic and a lot of them find peace in doing so. (Some of them didn't even realize that they could research the topic because they'd been told that this was the way it was and that was that...)

And you're right about the Christian bullies - there are so many out there it's not even funny. you believe the way we do or you're going to hell. Sadly it's an age old game that I find very frustrating at times. For every person that escapes Fundyville there's twenty or thirty more trapped in that pew.

It was really eye opening to me to realize that thing I had been raised to believe in, like the Rapture, were fairly modern ideas that people pretty much made up. I grew up being plagued by nightmares about the Rapture. I realize now that I was raised in such a fear based religion.

[ExMW]

It was really eye opening to me to realize that thing I had been raised to believe in, like the Rapture, were fairly modern ideas that people pretty much made up. I grew up being plagued by nightmares about the Rapture. I realize now that I was raised in such a fear based religion.

A lot of fundy and conservative ideology is fear based - it's the easiest way to control the congregation. :shakehead2: I'm sorry you had to go through all of that FG, It's a sad and scary way for a child to have to grow up.