Stacy: Brady Bunch Kids Had Measles, No Biggie

[RandomTrivia]

I live in an area with a really high vaccine refusal rate.

This isn't really a big interest of mine, but just concerns I've heard are from people who aren't 100% anti- vaccination like I know some people are.

The reasons I've heard are --- thermisol ( mercury ) which is used as a preservative. I believe because of this they have taken the mercury out of most vaccines - but I think it's pretty recent, and not sure if it's all of them.

-- worry over the greatly increased number of vaccines. That they aren't just for the diseases likely to cause a significant risk of serious complications - but for an increasingly wide range. They worry that the risk of a rare, but possible, vaccine reaction to some of these is greater than the risk of both catching the disease and getting serious complications.

.

-- Thimerosal was taken out of most childrens' vaccines in 2001, if I'm reading this http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/thimerosal.htm correctly, because of the anti-vax movement, in spite of the fact that numerous studies found no link between thimerosal and autism. Also, thimerosal was never in the MMR to begin with, according to the CDC. It's still in multi-dose flu vaccine as a preservative. Autism rates didn't go down after thimerosal was removed. Also, thimerosal is a different form of mercury than the harmful mercury (ethyl mercury vs methyl mercury, I am not a chemist, the CDC explains it here).

-- I saw a good graph on Facebook this week, showing the number of proteins in the vaccines now vs. 20 years ago. A lot of anti-vaxxers think kids are exposed to too many diseases (crap, I can't think of the word I'm looking for), basically that the vaccines overload their system with all the proteins that trigger the immunity. According to the graph I saw, based off of CDC or NIH numbers (I think), all the vaccines now, total, have fewer proteins than just the original vaccine that we got as kids - I can't remember if it was just the measles shot, or the MMR, and of course now I can't find that graph at all. But basically, science has gotten better at refining the vax so that we can basically use a smaller amount of the trigger proteins, which I'm probably not explaining worth beans right now. :) And of course, as soon as they're born, they're exposed to tons of stuff just by living and breathing.

I should have saved it to show my sister, but she would probably just pull out the backup reason, which is that you can't trust the CDC/NIH/any-government-science-at-all. I need to find that graph again, I know my mom made comments back when my kid was getting all his vax, about how the poor kids get so many these days.

[Mama Mia]

I wasn't talking about the mercury - autism - mmr situation in particular --- I was talking about it in general. I think continuing to have it in the flu vaccine caused a lot of scepticism among people --- because they had heard it was out of all of them.

I don't trust many of the big names you named --- because I'm permanently disabled due to a medical situation that has caused lots of people lots of issues -- but those issues are brushed aside because it's " generally safe" . So it does make me wonder how much they sweep under the rug about everything else.

I really, really think if the medical / government establishment did more acknowledgement and discussion of problems /complications / side effects that can occur with various medical treatments/medications they would actually get much better buy in and cooperation from people on vaccines. Not to the hard core anti-everything for everyone. But from parents who feel like they are being patted on the head and given a lollipop and told not to worry their vacant little heads about it.

[artdecades]

I didn't read this thread that thoroughly, but I wanted to point out a great article on the Brady Bunch Fallacy by Scienced Based Medicine. I hadn't realized how popular this argument was until seeing the post on it, I guess a lot of anti-vaxxers invoke the brady bunch because that totes proves vaccinations aren't needed.

not breaking link cuz good science should be shared

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/app ... more-35585

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

My kids aren't vaccinated.

My brother had a severe reaction to his baby shots. He is a 34 year old infant. Because of the increased risk of brain injury to my children, both their ped and the head of neurology at children's hospital suggested that my kids never be vaccinated. So they aren't.

I don't have a problem with people who have medical exemptions. Medical exemptions are fully allowable in my book.

It's the people who decide not to vaccinate because of trends or hype or wanting to be green or whatever who I have a problem with.

[fabkiwi06]

It's one thing to talk to a legit doctor, get the facts, and make an educated decision based on those facts and what is best for you and your family.

It's another thing to take medical advice from a former Playboy playmate who has no medical education background and is married to a New Kid on the Block.

It's the misinformation that pisses me off.

[Shirley Blest]

I wasn't talking about the mercury - autism - mmr situation in particular --- I was talking about it in general. I think continuing to have it in the flu vaccine caused a lot of scepticism among people --- because they had heard it was out of all of them.

I don't trust many of the big names you named --- because I'm permanently disabled due to a medical situation that has caused lots of people lots of issues -- but those issues are brushed aside because it's " generally safe" . So it does make me wonder how much they sweep under the rug about everything else.

I really, really think if the medical / government establishment did more acknowledgement and discussion of problems /complications / side effects that can occur with various medical treatments/medications they would actually get much better buy in and cooperation from people on vaccines. Not to the hard core anti-everything for everyone. But from parents who feel like they are being patted on the head and given a lollipop and told not to worry their vacant little heads about it.

Oh the CDC denied that kids had vaccination reactions for YEARS. I think they need to be more transparent. Non-funded studies would be nice. Call me cynical (because I am!) but vaccinations are HUGE money makers in this country. I think that they need to make them safer....hands down.

I look at my brother...and damn, I don't want anyone to have to go though what my family had been through. I would rather him be deaf in one ear or have spent a few weeks in the hospital...he's a 34 year old INFANT. He's never walked. He's never talked. He is a baby in a man's body. It's not worth the multi million dollar settlement. It wasn't worth the risk.

[Terrie]

It's one thing to talk to a legit doctor, get the facts, and make an educated decision based on those facts and what is best for you and your family.

It's another thing to take medical advice from a former Playboy playmate who has no medical education background and is married to a New Kid on the Block.

It's the misinformation that pisses me off.

Even worse is "Dr. Bob" Sears, who hides behind him medical degree to make nonsense statements. For instance, he says vaccines contain more aluminium than is found to be safe in IV fluids. Of course, vaccines are not given by IV, so its as valid a comparison as saying "The amount of water is a glass is more than can be safely inhaled."

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Even worse is "Dr. Bob" Sears, who hides behind him medical degree to make nonsense statements. For instance, he says vaccines contain more aluminium than is found to be safe in IV fluids. Of course, vaccines are not given by IV, so its as valid a comparison as saying "The amount of water is a glass is more than can be safely inhaled."

I absolutely despise the Spears "doctors." They're really quite idiotic in their advice and ALWAYS so condescending. Like my god you're not gods gift to the world. Get off your high horse.

[Vex]

Oh man, I hate that 'chicken pox is nothing' attitude.

When I was 11/12 I used to go to after school care because my mum was a teacher and couldn't pick me up until the early evening. There were about 15 kids there from the two schools local to the woman's house, plus a lot of kids too young for school. One of the very young kids got chicken pox, and the woman running the after school care decided it was no big deal so she let the sick kid come, covered in spots. She didn't bother warning the parents or isolating the child.

I was one of the older kids and I got it. I was extremely ill for weeks, with a raging fever and spots in my lungs. After that, my mum started letting me take the bus to my grandmother's house after school so I never found out how many other kids had become sick because of that moron.

[Sundaymorning]

Oh the CDC denied that kids had vaccination reactions for YEARS. I think they need to be more transparent. Non-funded studies would be nice. Call me cynical (because I am!) but vaccinations are HUGE money makers in this country. I think that they need to make them safer....hands down.

I look at my brother...and damn, I don't want anyone to have to go though what my family had been through. I would rather him be deaf in one ear or have spent a few weeks in the hospital...he's a 34 year old INFANT. He's never walked. He's never talked. He is a baby in a man's body. It's not worth the multi million dollar settlement. It wasn't worth the risk.

I'm very sorry that happend to your brother.

However, while I'm pretty critical towards big pharma and government in general, I have to say that the regular vaccines are not big money makers.

Those vaccines are pretty cheap and companies don't earn much money with them. In fact, if pharma companies wanted to earn more money, they shouldn't produce vaccines anymore, cause they would make way more with selling meds for all the sick children and adults who would suffer from all the serious complications and longterm health damages those diseases cause in a lot of cases, then they do now with selling vaccines.

[CinderJana]

if your so prejudice against autism than don't have kids,autism is genetic. All of my biological siblings are on the autism spectrum. if the anti-vacciners think it's causes autism and that it's worst than measles and possible death do they wish death upon us? what's wrong with autism? most forms are high functioning. the anti-vacciners need more facts on autism spectrum disorders

[notsocommon]

I also get sick of people who say that chicken pox is no big deal. Around the time I was born/small, 4 of my cousins DIED from it. There were several, including my brother, who were hospitalized.

I don't know if it was a particularly bad form of it, if there is a genetic component at play, or what,

but the thought is damn scary! You bet my daughter got her CP vax!

[notsocommon]

However, while I'm pretty critical towards big pharma and government in general, I have to say that the regular vaccines are not big money makers.

Those vaccines are pretty cheap and companies don't earn much money with them. In fact, if pharma companies wanted to earn more money, they shouldn't produce vaccines anymore, cause they would make way more with selling meds for all the sick children and adults who would suffer from all the serious complications and longterm health damages those diseases cause in a lot of cases, then they do now with selling vaccines.

So much THIS!!!

Vaccines do NOT bring in what people like to think. I always ask people: "Which is cheaper? The prevention or the cure?" "A shot that may cost $100 or meds and treatment that can cost thousands?"

You can almost see a fuse blow in their heads as the logic tries to sink in.

STILL, people double down on Big, ebbil, pHARMA caring only about money. :doh:

[Mama Mia]

I also get sick of people who say that chicken pox is no big deal. Around the time I was born/small, 4 of my cousins DIED from it. There were several, including my brother, who were hospitalized.

I don't know if it was a particularly bad form of it, if there is a genetic component at play, or what,

but the thought is damn scary! You bet my daughter got her CP vax!

That is awful and very, very strange. According to the CDC, before the vaccine about 4 million people a year used to get chickenpox, out of those 4 million about 100 died from complications.

That's a .00000025 chance of dying. That 4 of your cousins were fatalities is incredible. Personally, if I were you, I'd be trying to find out what the hell happened -- because that seems like it must be a genetic condition that could also mean a susceptibility to other problems.

[SaturnianCatalina]

That is awful and very, very strange. According to the CDC, before the vaccine about 4 million people a year used to get chickenpox, out of those 4 million about 100 died from complications.

That's a .00000025 chance of dying. That 4 of your cousins were fatalities is incredible. Personally, if I were you, I'd be trying to find out what the hell happened -- because that seems like it must be a genetic condition that could also mean a susceptibility to other problems.

I agree that it's strange that 4 of your cousins died from chicken pox and others were hospitalized--again, I don't have a ton of contact with people who have kids, but I'd never heard of anyone dying, let alone being hospitalized, for chicken pox. I definitely had/still kind of have the attitude that chicken pox isn't a huge deal. Other than possible scars and the risk of shingles later, does it actually have any lasting effects? (Serious question--I'm not trying to be a smartass here.) I had it as a baby (caught it from my sister), and I always figured that was the way to go; get it over with before you're even old enough to realize anything is happening. (The vaccine didn't come out in the U.S. until I was about 5, so there's also that. I'm guessing a lot of people my age who don't have older siblings got the vaccine, but for me it was too late.)

I guess my concern with the chicken pox vaccine is that it apparently doesn't make a person totally immune, so you end up with people who avoid chicken pox as kids, only to end up getting it as an adult when its a lot worse.

[Mama Mia]

So much THIS!!!

Vaccines do NOT bring in what people like to think. I always ask people: "Which is cheaper? The prevention or the cure?" "A shot that may cost $100 or meds and treatment that can cost thousands?"

You can almost see a fuse blow in their heads as the logic tries to sink in.

STILL, people double down on Big, ebbil, pHARMA caring only about money. :doh:

I don't think that's a fuse blowing from the logic. That kind of statement comes across really patronizing and is very misleading. Which makes people who are already suspicious not trust it.

. Your statement is going on the assumption that everyone who doesn't get the vaccine will get the illness. And get it so severely that they develop complications that will require thousands of dollars in treatment. And that's just not even close to accurate. Take measles . Before the vaccine 90% of adults tested had antibodies to the virus. Meaning they had had it. But what percent of adults would recall having had the virus? Nowhere near 90 I'm sure. Meaning a certain percentage had it so mildly they weren't even aware of it. A phenomenon that's very common with a number of childhood illnesses. Then you have the people who do get the illness -- of those, the vast majority won't have any complications that will require further treatment. Of those who do have complications only a few will be severe enough to require thousands of dollars in treatment.

I'm not anti-vax. My kids were all vaccinated. My grand kids have all been vaccinated ( I think) I even got the whopping cough booster a couple of years ago. I'm on several prescription medication for chronic health problems. So I'm not anti- western medicine. But since I've experienced, and witnessed the results of physicians who do more harm than good ----I do have serious reservations and distrust of the way that patients are treated in general and when medical professionals make these sweeping statements that seem to be a condescending pat on the head --- it really makes the situation worse.

[Sundaymorning]

I don't think that's a fuse blowing from the logic. That kind of statement comes across really patronizing and is very misleading. Which makes people who are already suspicious not trust it.

. Your statement is going on the assumption that everyone who doesn't get the vaccine will get the illness. And get it so severely that they develop complications that will require thousands of dollars in treatment. And that's just not even close to accurate. Take measles . Before the vaccine 90% of adults tested had antibodies to the virus. Meaning they had had it. But what percent of adults would recall having had the virus? Nowhere near 90 I'm sure. Meaning a certain percentage had it so mildly they weren't even aware of it. A phenomenon that's very common with a number of childhood illnesses. Then you have the people who do get the illness -- of those, the vast majority won't have any complications that will require further treatment. Of those who do have complications only a few will be severe enough to require thousands of dollars in treatment.

I'm not anti-vax. My kids were all vaccinated. My grand kids have all been vaccinated ( I think) I even got the whopping cough booster a couple of years ago. I'm on several prescription medication for chronic health problems. So I'm not anti- western medicine. But since I've experienced, and witnessed the results of physicians who do more harm than good ----I do have serious reservations and distrust of the way that patients are treated in general and when medical professionals make these sweeping statements that seem to be a condescending pat on the head --- it really makes the situation worse.

The thing is that pharma companies already would make more money in that scenario than they make now with vaccines. Even if most people don't have longterm damages or serious complications, many of them will take meds when they are sick. Example: children pox were somehow not on the vaccine recommendation list when I was a child. So my whole kindergarden class including me got them. And I remember that I had to take meds against the fever and then there was also this powder about every parent bought which was used to try to lessen the itch. I'm pretty sure the revenue for the pharma companies was already bigger with selling the meds (especially this powder) than it would have been with just selling the vaccine.

And there were, as far as I know, no complications and longterm damages for the kids in my kindergarden class which required longterm medication. So with the "usual" meds alone, they already make more than they would have with the vaccine.

[Trynn]

I think deaths from the pox are rare.

That said, they are a possibiliy. When we were 4, my cousin m had chicken pox. Her brother J was... If not a newborn, he was one. No older than 1, either way. My cousin M shared her pox with her baby brother because Sharing is CARING!

He almost freakin' died. AND he was too young to have antibodies from it, so he had to get the disease again later in life.

The vaccine wasn't really available at that time, and when it first came out my parents were a bit wary, because it was so new. So I never had the vaccine and I got the pox at 7. I suffered no I'll affects from it.

That being said, I will definitely vaccinate for the pox. I can see why some people wouldn't, but it is really dangerous for young babies and adults, and I'm not really big on risk taking.

I myself am not vaccinated for gardasil because at the time it came out and got pushed to mandatory status it all happened really fast, and I wanted to see more long term studies done. Combined with the fact that unless god forbid I get raped, I don't plan on having sex ever, I don't really see a reason to get the vaccine now, ten years later.

By the time I have a kid I expect well know the long term effects of the vaccine and will probably get it for her.

I do agree there are legit reasons to be concerned about vaccines, but autism isn't one of them, from what I've read.

Of course, I used to be friends with a family who believed that vaccines contained... Not even chemicals, mind you, but experimental drugs that they would inject into you just to see what would happen. Something something monarch mind control ... Don't google that unless you want to be disturbed beyond belief and have nightmares and oh, trigger warning for tape.

[Eater of Worlds]

I just read recently a doctor's explanation on breastmilk antibodies. They don't really do anything about mumps, measles, etc. They are made up of mostly (or all, I can't remember) IgA, which is absorbed (obviously) after digestion. Digestion already weakens what the baby gets, just like most probiotics people take get digested before they can be useful. Because the antibodies get in through the mucosal linings, it mostly protects that system. So breastfeeding can help reduce colds and gastrointestinal illnesses, but not really other things once the immunity from mom wears off which is really early in life, comparatively speaking (6 weeks is when it starts, I think). Measles, mumps, etc stimulate a different type of antibody, the same one the vaccines stimulate.

So all the strident breastfeeders saying their babies are protected from all harm due to breastfeeding are very wrong.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

There are a LOT of diseases people don't suffer complications from yet pharmaceutical companies exploit for every cent they can. Just look at cold medicines, sleep aids, anything that releives itchy anything....

People will flock to whatever offers instant gratification (in the case of illnesses, that means anything that will offer them relief). There's a lot of money to be had in both big pharm and "holistic" treatments if people are getting ill.

[JMarie]

Even if you are anti-vax or selectively vax, you will enjoy the nonsensical explanations for not vaccinating. Try not to eat or drink anything while reading, to protect your computer screen.

facebook.com/pages/Things-anti-vaxers-say/656716804343725

And look, they've found Megan, who we've discussed on FJ. She's the naturopath/lawyer who is completely against western medicine, despite the fact her husband is a DO.

facebook.com/pages/Things-anti-vaxers-say/656716804343725?fref=nf

[twin2]

There are a LOT of diseases people don't suffer complications from yet pharmaceutical companies exploit for every cent they can. Just look at cold medicines, sleep aids, anything that releives itchy anything....

People will flock to whatever offers instant gratification (in the case of illnesses, that means anything that will offer them relief). There's a lot of money to be had in both big pharm and "holistic" treatments if people are getting ill.

And what the fuck is wrong with that? People should be miserable for an extended period of time just because the body will eventually heal itself? I had a rash earlier this year from something. Yeah it wouldn't have caused me extended harm and eventually would have gone way, but putting some cream on it so it didn't drive me bonkers. I also take Zyrtec from the spring to the fall to control my allergies. Yeah, not taking it won't kill me and it costs me 30 bucks a month, but well worth it not to have my head throb and and my ears ache. Had the flu or a cold back around Christmas. Took decongestions and expectorants during the day and NyQuil to sleep at night. No, none of that got the critters out of me, but made me less miserable while the immune system was doing its thing.

[Mango]

I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks people should 'tough it out' when there's a pharmaceutical that will fix things fast, especially when it comes to itchy stuff like ecezema, can just go roll in poison ivy.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

And what the fuck is wrong with that? People should be miserable for an extended period of time just because the body will eventually heal itself? I had a rash earlier this year from something. Yeah it wouldn't have caused me extended harm and eventually would have gone way, but putting some cream on it so it didn't drive me bonkers. I also take Zyrtec from the spring to the fall to control my allergies. Yeah, not taking it won't kill me and it costs me 30 bucks a month, but well worth it not to have my head throb and and my ears ache. Had the flu or a cold back around Christmas. Took decongestions and expectorants during the day and NyQuil to sleep at night. No, none of that got the critters out of me, but made me less miserable while the immune system was doing its thing.

I wasn't saying there was anything wrong with it. Someone said that it would only be beneficial to big pharm to not have people vaccinate IF people suffered complications. I'm saying big pharm could make a shit ton of money on temporary reliefs without even considering how much they could make off of people who suffered complications.

[Ralar]

When I was late 7 or early 8, the chicken pox vaccine was brand new, so no one had it yet (my brother got it when he was about a year old, so when I was about 9). Back then, it was really common for kids to get chicken pox, and people even believed that exposing their children to chicken pox was the best way to ensure they'd be safe as adults because it's safer to get chicken pox as a child (or at least, so the story was; I'm not sure if that's true).

As a result, one of the kids on the street was exposed to the chicken pox when his friend contracted them. Before he showed symptoms, he exposed everyone else on the street to chicken pox. Everyone else on the street had already gotten the chicken pox once by then, so we had an epidemic of shingles. I was the only person besides the original kid to get chicken pox because I had had a mild case of chicken pox the first time, and my body hadn't kept the immunity. But, my sister 6 year old sister was one of the ones who ended up with the shingles. And, now, has to get regular boosters against shingles (something typically saved for those 45 and older) because once you've had shingles, you're more likely to get them again without the vaccine.

One of my friends, during the same outbreak, ended up with shingles so bad that they completely scarred her face and she needed plastic surgery at the age of 7 to correct the damage. And, to this day, has no nerve sensation on half of her face.

Chicken pox is not something to take lightly. I don't care how many people had them when they were younger.

One of my friends took her 5 year old son to a "chicken pox party." He developed a typical case of chicken pox and had seemingly recovered. About a month later, he had a stroke. The doctors said if was a complication from chicken pox. Thankfully, he had a full recovery and is now a senior in college.