"Getting to know you" only after marriage

[HereticHick]

I agree with Four is Enough, I just don't see critical thinking skills in Jill (or sadly, her siblings--because Gothardism actively discourages it).

I would love to know what Derick's attitude is towards her abandoning her midwife studies. He's a secular college graduate who was able to get a degree while doing extracurriculars (like being Pistol Pete).

[SassyPants]

I agree with Four is Enough, I just don't see critical thinking skills in Jill (or sadly, her siblings--because Gothardism actively discourages it).

I would love to know what Derick's attitude is towards her abandoning her midwife studies. He's a secular college graduate who was able to get a degree while doing extracurriculars (like being Pistol Pete).

And him mentioning at the jeweler about her doing MW and therefore needing a ring that did not make gloving difficult, lends me to believe that he really thought she was going to follow through with her studies and have a career of some sort.

There is no reason for her to have abandoned her studies for the last year, IF she ever intended on getting that certification and helping others. Now she will always have an excuse...maybe others are right and the studies were just too hard. I went to nursing school with a gal who would have made a lovely nurse (personality much like Jill's), however, she could never get through the course work and ended up dropping out of the program, twice.

[VelociRapture]

And him mentioning at the jeweler about her doing MW and therefore needing a ring that did not make gloving difficult, lends me to believe that he really thought she was going to follow through with her studies and have a career of some sort.

There is no reason for her to have abandoned her studies for the last year, IF she ever intended on getting that certification and helping others. Now she will always have an excuse...maybe others are right and the studies were just too hard. I went to nursing school with a gal who would have made a lovely nurse (personality much like Jill's), however, she could never get through the course work and ended up dropping out of the program, twice.

This is the Duggars we're talking about here. They are known to stretch the truth and bend timelines to fit a particular storyline or present a certain image. The fact that he said it on the show means nothing and proves nothing about his thoughts on the matter.

[VelociRapture]

People need to remember a few things:

- Jill has honestly never had time to herself until she was married. Going from constant socialization to next to none for most of the day can be a very big adjustment to make for anyone.

- Jill was also raised to view people unlike her as full of sin and the modern world as full of temptations. She may be a bit hesitant or scared to venture out on her own too much for these reasons.

- We honestly don't know what she does all day. It's entirely possible that she does stuff that she chooses not to share right now for whatever reason. She honestly doesn't post too much on social media (or at least not too much on Instagram) and what she does post is pretty similar to things that other (normal) people post too.

- I would have loved to have seen her complete her studies. . . but that doesn't seem to be what she wants at the moment. Maybe she always planned to study it only while she was single. Maybe she honestly wanted to continue studying but was unable to for some reason. She herself hasn't referred to herself as a Midwife as far as I know - that is all on her parents.

So long as she, Derick, and the baby are happy and healthy that is all that matters. If that means that they want to eat lunch together then I don't see any problem with it. She has been taught her whole life that being a wife and mother is her sole purpose - the type of indoctrination she experienced can take a long time to work through and any changes right now are going to appear small to us (such as buying healthier food).

[Yoshimi]

Right, but the organic part isn't a hobby. If you like to cook, organic doesn't add additional challenges or make things easier. It it otherwise the same.

No, I agree with browncoatslytherin's (love the name btw!) original post. I was trying to say that cooking is probably a hobby for Jill since she clearly seems to enjoy it and is always trying out new recipes and ingredients. I added the 'organic food' part because it's true that Jill has gone pretty hippy-dippy since she got married. :)

[Yoshimi]

IIRC, Jill said that she took a break from midwifery due to her sudden pregnancy but that it was her plan to resume her studies “soon†(no specific timeline given) once her morning sickness subsided. You can either take her word for it or not but I don’t know how people can be so sure that she’s lying out of her butt when no one really knows what’s going on in her life except for what she and her family CHOOSES to share with the public. For all we know, they could just be keeping her midwife storyline under wraps for next season.

For what it’s worth, I’ve heard through the grapevines that Jill is/was very close to getting her certification. She had pretty much finished her on-site training requirements and all she had left was to pass the written exam portion. Being that I know next-to-nothing about becoming a midwife I don’t know how this would work, but it seems possible that she could take the test anytime as long as she felt prepared for it.

[eh02]

I think most of the J'kids COULD become great things, even including professions that required a lot of strenuous training and academic work. The problem isn't a lack of intelligence, it is how far behind their peers they'd be. I just don't think there is any way they'd do it. Especially in any career that required basic knowledge of science. I will cry with joy the day the first Duggar kid enrolls in a real college - even a community college.

Plus, they've been taught that debt is unacceptable no matter what. Which is just plain ridiculous for something like nursing school, IF Jill ever decided to go, which IMO there is NO WAY she ever would. Jill could get a BSN in 4 years at public schools and likely make $60,000 right out of school as an RN at, say, an obstetrician's office. But it won't happen. I still think there is a reasonable chance she could continue with the lay midwife license and just take on a very small amount of clients, though.

There is no doubt in my mind most of them are smart enough for college. If Jill wanted to go to "real school," I think she could do it, though it would be harder for her than most people coming into college with more rigorous academic backgrounds. I mean, I just finished grad school, and it's amazing how many idiots make it this far. Persistence can get you just as far as intelligence. But I don't think it would ever even come up in her mind as a possibility.

It's all very depressing. Who knows what great things all the J'kids could have all accomplished in different circumstances? Most of them seem like sweet, bright kids. It's such a shame.

[SassyPants]

I think most of the J'kids COULD become great things, even including professions that required a lot of strenuous training and academic work. The problem isn't a lack of intelligence, it is how far behind their peers they'd be. I just don't think there is any way they'd do it. Especially in any career that required basic knowledge of science. I will cry with joy the day the first Duggar kid enrolls in a real college - even a community college.

Plus, they've been taught that debt is unacceptable no matter what. Which is just plain ridiculous for something like nursing school, IF Jill ever decided to go, which IMO there is NO WAY she ever would. Jill could get a BSN in 4 years at public schools and likely make $60,000 right out of school as an RN at, say, an obstetrician's office. But it won't happen. I still think there is a reasonable chance she could continue with the lay midwife license and just take on a very small amount of clients, though.

There is no doubt in my mind most of them are smart enough for college. If Jill wanted to go to "real school," I think she could do it, though it would be harder for her than most people coming into college with more rigorous academic backgrounds. I mean, I just finished grad school, and it's amazing how many idiots make it this far. Persistence can get you just as far as intelligence. But I don't think it would ever even come up in her mind as a possibility.

It's all very depressing. Who knows what great things all the J'kids could have all accomplished in different circumstances? Most of them seem like sweet, bright kids. It's such a shame.

Even before intellect is discussed, they'd need to have the internal/self motivation, drive, discipline, curiosity, desire and willingness to listen to others...they are like infants in this department. JB and M took the easy route, 1-stop parenting. You do and think only this, and nothing more.

IMO, Duggar time pretty much sums up the Duggars.

They are not curious, interested, self motivated, driven or inquisitive. They are lazy. They are all about following whatever BS line that JB and Gothard spout. They mimic because it's easier than thinking, doing and providing for themselves.

Wait until the TLC money is gone...world of hurt.

[nst]

IIRC, Jill said that she took a break from midwifery due to her sudden pregnancy but that it was her plan to resume her studies “soon†(no specific timeline given) once her morning sickness subsided. You can either take her word for it or not but I don’t know how people can be so sure that she’s lying out of her butt when no one really knows what’s going on in her life except for what she and her family CHOOSES to share with the public. For all we know, they could just be keeping her midwife storyline under wraps for next season.

For what it’s worth, I’ve heard through the grapevines that Jill is/was very close to getting her certification. She had pretty much finished her on-site training requirements and all she had left was to pass the written exam portion. Being that I know next-to-nothing about becoming a midwife I don’t know how this would work, but it seems possible that she could take the test anytime as long as she felt prepared for it.

have I told you I love your posts lol

but this made laugh - her sudden pregnancy - she and derick obviously didn't know that lots of sex leads to pregnancy :D

what else have you heard through the grapevine :D anything Bueller Bueller

hello - I NEED SOME GOOD GOSSIP

please :)

[BrownieMomma]

IIRC, Jill said that she took a break from midwifery due to her sudden pregnancy but that it was her plan to resume her studies “soon†(no specific timeline given) once her morning sickness subsided. You can either take her word for it or not but I don’t know how people can be so sure that she’s lying out of her butt when no one really knows what’s going on in her life except for what she and her family CHOOSES to share with the public. For all we know, they could just be keeping her midwife storyline under wraps for next season.

For what it’s worth, I’ve heard through the grapevines that Jill is/was very close to getting her certification. She had pretty much finished her on-site training requirements and all she had left was to pass the written exam portion. Being that I know next-to-nothing about becoming a midwife I don’t know how this would work, but it seems possible that she could take the test anytime as long as she felt prepared for it.

Because the Duggars lie and misconstrue like nobody's business, even if they are supposed to be Christians.

JD is not a cop.

Jill is not a midwife.

Jana is not a doula, firefighter or concert pianist.

The adult Duggar kids have accomplished very little and it's probably a huge waste.. remember the old NAACP ads - a brain is a terrible thing to waste - applies here too.

FTR I don't consider Josh having accomplished much due to his own efforts. I might need to give him more credit, he is still employed for a few years now.

[SassyPants]

Because the Duggars lie and misconstrue like nobody's business, even if they are supposed to be Christians.

JD is not a cop.

Jill is not a midwife.

Jana is not a doula, firefighter or concert pianist.

The adult Duggar kids have accomplished very little and it's probably a huge waste.. remember the old NAACP ads - a brain is a terrible thing to waste - applies here too.

FTR I don't consider Josh having accomplished much due to his own efforts. I might need to give him more credit, he is still employed for a few years now.

And the reason that the adults and near adult kids have accomplished so little is multifaceted, and have paths that lead directly back to their parents. First, there was no time for them to learn or hone many skills because they were too busy doing the mundane tasks that their parents chose to abandon. 2) the parents forbid them from branching out, getting real educations and allowing and encouraging experiences needed to accomplish and lead productive, contributing lives.

So the kids are limited because their parents purposely limited them. Mark my words, in the end, JB will hold all the money- he is far too competitive to ever let his kids get ahead. He was a lackluster student and he made sure his kids ended up MORE limited than he-

[DGayle]

People need to remember a few things:

- Jill has honestly never had time to herself until she was married. Going from constant socialization to next to none for most of the day can be a very big adjustment to make for anyone.

- Jill was also raised to view people unlike her as full of sin and the modern world as full of temptations. She may be a bit hesitant or scared to venture out on her own too much for these reasons.

I think that's part of how they control young women.

So long as she, Derick, and the baby are happy and healthy that is all that matters. If that means that they want to eat lunch together then I don't see any problem with it. She has been taught her whole life that being a wife and mother is her sole purpose - the type of indoctrination she experienced can take a long time to work through and any changes right now are going to appear small to us (such as buying healthier food).

If they want to keep punching out babies, they'll need a way to support them after the gravy train has dried and crusted. That means Derrick will need to advance, and a boss with the power to promote isn't going to look so favorably on someone co-dependent on family so much that they go to work every day for lunch. So them being happy isn't all that matters. Being happy isn't what pays the bills. Part of being an adult is knowing how to balance what makes you happy with doing the adult work you need to do.

[DGayle]

Being that I know next-to-nothing about becoming a midwife I don’t know how this would work, but it seems possible that she could take the test anytime as long as she felt prepared for it.

I know some midwives and a lot more doulas. There's a reason midwives and doulas give up working for a couple years after having babies of their own. You've got to live on-call, which doesn't work well with raising a baby unless you use formula and have reliable, on-call childcare who can hop in at 2am so you can go to a birth. My best friend's housemate is a midwife who was called for a birth today, and my friend is her on-call childcare this month, and this ended up meaning canceling plans we had. The son is older than a toddler. If you've trying to nurse a baby, it's not going to work to be called away and gone 24 hours or more.

If Jill wants to be a midwife now, she needs to have a J-slave move in so she can pass her son off to the slave when she gets calls. And I don't know about her state, but in a lot of others, you have to maintain your license, and that takes more than just paying a fee.

I don't think she'll return to it, and if she's planning to be a broodmare factory, it's going to better that she doesn't bother trying. I think it would depress her having a license she can't use because she can't work, then letting it lapse. That'll be a kick in the gut about what she had and lost, when right now, she's just another person who decided, before finishing, that it wasn't going to work.

[SassyPants]

I think that's part of how they control young women.

If they want to keep punching out babies, they'll need a way to support them after the gravy train has dried and crusted. That means Derrick will need to advance, and a boss with the power to promote isn't going to look so favorably on someone co-dependent on family so much that they go to work every day for lunch. So them being happy isn't all that matters. Being happy isn't what pays the bills. Part of being an adult is knowing how to balance what makes you happy with doing the adult work you need to do.

I absolutely agree that these kids are not prepared for life in the real world. They have been limited and spoon fed by their parents and given a false economic/ financial sense by the presence of easy money via TLC. Once that opportunity is gone, reality is going to hit them hard. Economically speaking, none of them is prepared or equipped to handle what a mega family requires. JB was lucky- there is no way his 19 kids will be that fortunate. Sadly, I doubt either JB or Michelle give 2 craps about that fact.

[DGayle]

Mark my words, in the end, JB will hold all the money- he is far too competitive to ever let his kids get ahead. He was a lackluster student and he made sure his kids ended up MORE limited than he-

Part of why he's a shitty parent. I believe with all my heart that ALL good parents want their kids to have more opportunities and to have even better lives. This doesn't mean a nurse has to hope her daughter becomes a doctor, but that someone who had a bunch of opportunities wants even more doors open for their kids, and wants their kids to be even happier.

And there's Boob, competing in a way that he's making sure his kids lose so he can be the winner.

[DGayle]

I absolutely agree that these kids are not prepared for life in the real world. They have been limited and spoon fed by their parents and given a false economic/ financial sense by the presence of easy money via TLC. Once that opportunity is gone, reality is going to hit them hard. Economically speaking, none of them is prepared or equipped to handle what a mega family requires. JB was lucky- there is no way his 19 kids will be that fortunate. Sadly, I doubt either JB or Michelle give 2 craps about that fact.

Jessa is so fucked that it pains me. Married and still reliant on Daddy.

[kat]

People need to remember a few things:

- Jill has honestly never had time to herself until she was married. Going from constant socialization to next to none for most of the day can be a very big adjustment to make for anyone.

- Jill was also raised to view people unlike her as full of sin and the modern world as full of temptations. She may be a bit hesitant or scared to venture out on her own too much for these reasons.

- We honestly don't know what she does all day. It's entirely possible that she does stuff that she chooses not to share right now for whatever reason. She honestly doesn't post too much on social media (or at least not too much on Instagram) and what she does post is pretty similar to things that other (normal) people post too.

- I would have loved to have seen her complete her studies. . . but that doesn't seem to be what she wants at the moment. Maybe she always planned to study it only while she was single. Maybe she honestly wanted to continue studying but was unable to for some reason. She herself hasn't referred to herself as a Midwife as far as I know - that is all on her parents.

So long as she, Derick, and the baby are happy and healthy that is all that matters. If that means that they want to eat lunch together then I don't see any problem with it. She has been taught her whole life that being a wife and mother is her sole purpose - the type of indoctrination she experienced can take a long time to work through and any changes right now are going to appear small to us (such as buying healthier food).

Excellent post. I wonder what her fear and anxiety levels are with all this newness in her life including being pregnant for the first time. And I would think the shiny hasn't worn off yet about being in lurve and having a husband.

What is floating through my head is that too often abused children become abusers themselves. This cult is an abusive one. The rigid control of body/mind/emotion that is encouraged and is being practiced by JB&M is a form of abuse. What concerns me is the long road potential for Jill to become as controlling as Michelle. I agree with the others who post they believe Michelle is the real power in that family.

We can and certainly should make allowances for Jill's unfortunate background; she did not ask to be raised this way. However, one could also present the idea of driving Dilly Daddy to and from work as well as lunching with him every work day is a form of control itself. In her defense, Jill would never see it that way; it goes back to how she was raised by JB&M, and I lay the blame at their feet.

Is this making any sense? Or should I just start drinking and back away from the keyboard now?

[LittleOleMe]

I thought Jill "took a break" from midwifery to plan her wedding, not because she got pregnant two seconds after saying "I do". Wasn't wedding planning just so damn time consuming that she couldn't even do her chores at home anymore? (Not that she should have to be doing all that was she doing) Midwifery was something nice and fun for her to do until she got married. Whether Derick knew this or not is anyone's guess. He may be a little peeved that she quit right away but now that's pregnant, it doesn't really matter. In a few months she'll be a full time SAHM (which is perfectly fine) and punch out a new kid as often as possible. I completely agree with the other poster from another thread who said she'll have another baby announcement before the years out. I can really see her having 19 kids herself. She's only two years older than J'chelle was when she started having children. If Jill has a few sets of twins and doesn't have an almost two year gap between babies (Josh and the twins are 22 months apart, the furtherest apart I believe) she could easily have just as many as her mother did. Assuming Derick is on board with that.

[LittleOleMe]

Excellent post. I wonder what her fear and anxiety levels are with all this newness in her life including being pregnant for the first time. And I would think the shiny hasn't worn off yet about being in lurve and having a husband.

What is floating through my head is that too often abused children become abusers themselves. This cult is an abusive one. The rigid control of body/mind/emotion that is encouraged and is being practiced by JB&M is a form of abuse. What concerns me is the long road potential for Jill to become as controlling as Michelle. I agree with the others who post they believe Michelle is the real power in that family.

We can and certainly should make allowances for Jill's unfortunate background; she did not ask to be raised this way. However, one could also present the idea of driving Dilly Daddy to and from work as well as lunching with him every work day is a form of control itself. In her defense, Jill would never see it that way; it goes back to how she was raised by JB&M, and I lay the blame at their feet.

Is this making any sense? Or should I just start drinking and back away from the keyboard now?

To the first bolded, this is definitely true, and sadly I have already see this with Josh and Anna. Before Mike was even born, they had Mac blanket training. They never came right out and said it, but you could clearly see it in the footage of them. I don't see Anna being as horrific as we know some these families are (and suspect the Duggars are as well) but she definitely has some of these traits. Telling a two year old to "instantly obey"?? No. You ask a dog to obey. You ask your children to listen. Since Jill was a sister mom to several young babies, I suspect she did blanket training on them so I see no reason why she wouldn't do it to her own children. :cry:

To the second bolded, this makes sense as well. Driving to and from work every day could easily be a control thing. He'll never go out with his co-workers after work. He'll never go to the bar with them and just unwind after work with a cold beer. He'll never run errands after work and come home late. She'll never have to wonder where he is because he can't go anywhere. Hell even the lunches could be a control issue. She should be his best friend so she should be the one having lunch with him. Every freaking day. Eek.

Finally, go have a drink. You deserve one after a long day of whatever it is you do. If anything, have a drink bc the duggars aren't allowed to.

[DGayle]

Driving to and from work every day could easily be a control thing. He'll never go out with his co-workers after work. He'll never go to the bar with them and just unwind after work with a cold beer. He'll never run errands after work and come home late. She'll never have to wonder where he is because he can't go anywhere. Hell even the lunches could be a control issue. She should be his best friend so she should be the one having lunch with him. Every freaking day. Eek.

Finally, go have a drink. You deserve one after a long day of whatever it is you do. If anything, have a drink bc the duggars aren't allowed to.

I know I keep pounding on this, but he really isn't going to get to advance at work like this, and he needs to. Walmart pay isn't great unless you're one of the top people. Even store managers make shit. My best friend's husband was a store manager for a while. Their family still qualified for food stamps!!

D needs to be able to advance in his career, and that's not going to happen if he can't network and build rapport. If their sexes were reversed, it's easier to see the problem with a spouse dropping you off, taking all your lunch time, then being outside to pick you up. That makes unplanned overtime tougher. They both really need to stop.

[Coco]

People need to remember a few things:

- Jill has honestly never had time to herself until she was married. Going from constant socialization to next to none for most of the day can be a very big adjustment to make for anyone.

- Jill was also raised to view people unlike her as full of sin and the modern world as full of temptations. She may be a bit hesitant or scared to venture out on her own too much for these reasons.

- We honestly don't know what she does all day. It's entirely possible that she does stuff that she chooses not to share right now for whatever reason. She honestly doesn't post too much on social media (or at least not too much on Instagram) and what she does post is pretty similar to things that other (normal) people post too.

- I would have loved to have seen her complete her studies. . . but that doesn't seem to be what she wants at the moment. Maybe she always planned to study it only while she was single. Maybe she honestly wanted to continue studying but was unable to for some reason. She herself hasn't referred to herself as a Midwife as far as I know - that is all on her parents.

So long as she, Derick, and the baby are happy and healthy that is all that matters. If that means that they want to eat lunch together then I don't see any problem with it. She has been taught her whole life that being a wife and mother is her sole purpose - the type of indoctrination she experienced can take a long time to work through and any changes right now are going to appear small to us (such as buying healthier food).

There's so much good in this post :D

To the bit i bolded - that is unfortunately true. It's very difficult to come back from something she's been brainwashed with her whole life. It will take her years to recover from her upbringing. And she may not consciously realize that clinging to Derick may be a way she's controlling him.

[Coco]

Part of why he's a shitty parent. I believe with all my heart that ALL good parents want their kids to have more opportunities and to have even better lives. This doesn't mean a nurse has to hope her daughter becomes a doctor, but that someone who had a bunch of opportunities wants even more doors open for their kids, and wants their kids to be even happier.

And there's Boob, competing in a way that he's making sure his kids lose so he can be the winner.

Amen, amen, amen. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I think Derick's going to want to put the brakes on the baby machine so that his kids can get a college education like he experienced.

[Coco]

I absolutely agree that these kids are not prepared for life in the real world. They have been limited and spoon fed by their parents and given a false economic/ financial sense by the presence of easy money via TLC. Once that opportunity is gone, reality is going to hit them hard. Economically speaking, none of them is prepared or equipped to handle what a mega family requires. JB was lucky- there is no way his 19 kids will be that fortunate. Sadly, I doubt either JB or Michelle give 2 craps about that fact.

Totally agree that JB & Michelle have crippled their kids. But at the same time... they live in the fundie bubble. They've deceived themselves that it will all be okay even if TLC pulls the plug on their show and that money dries up.

I feel like i harp on this a lot, but let's not forget their social network. Fundies are an economy unto themselves. I totally agree that it's a bubble that could burst at any time, and it's really stupid and thoughtless for parents to keep procreating thinking that someone out there will throw their kids a bone and offer them a job or apprenticeship within the group, but they DO think that way. All those ladies at the bridal shower for Jill, the moms she helped give birth, all the people they know through the grapevine, all the acquaintances who showed up to be free labor at the wedding. This is the shaky foundation that their ideals are built upon. It's a way to control the kids by making them stay in the group, because their crap educations aren't documented enough to get them anywhere with an actual job in corporate America. But within the cult they might eek out a halfway comfortable living. Passing around goods and services among church families to kinda-sorta get by.

The Duggars are walking a tightrope though. They're trying to appeal to/profit from mainstream TLC fans (gift registries cha-ching) and still be fundie enough to sell books and be paid to speak at conferences.

[kat]

DGayle, you are correct in addressing that Derrick's advancement at work could be severely hampered.

Worse, it could be cause for eventual termination because of too much disruption either in job performance and/or work environment. It's one thing to marry someone from a freak show; becoming a part of the freak show is something else entirely.

Another concern I have is that JB&M who have experience in the real working world are encouraging Jill's actions. Can we say deliberate sabotage to make and keep Derrick and Jill as dependent on them as possible?

[kat]

To the bit i bolded - that is unfortunately true. It's very difficult to come back from something she's been brainwashed with her whole life. It will take her years to recover from her upbringing. And she may not consciously realize that clinging to Derick may be a way she's controlling him.

:clap: What I was stumbling around trying to express, but you did it much better. Thank you.