If the Duggar children were emotionally abused...

[hockeymoo]

If the Duggar children one day make allegations that they were emotionally abused (or otherwise), would your perspective on their adult lives and decisions change?

 

I'm mainly thinking of Jessa at the moment. When the Duggars were overseas, Jessa quickly figured out how to get the number of train tickets they needed, in spite of Jim Bob's bumbling idiocy before. When they were in England, she was clearly embarrassed by Jim Bob's childish attempts to taunt the guards. And just now I watched a clip of Jessa and Ben sitting on the family bus, being grilled by Jim Bob about their relationship. "Are you lovesick?" JB asks. Jessa says, with a bit of sass, "Do you know what that means?" Given her earlier displays of wit and JB's lack of it, I think Jessa knows that Jim Bob was confusing "lovesick" with "lovestruck.". But JB's response is, "Do you know what it means, Jessa?" He doesn't answer confidently but turns the question back on her and adds the subtle power-move of calling her by name. Jessa appears to backtrack and blunts the 'offensiveness' of her original question by asking, "I don't know. Do you?" to which JB replies, "I dunno, why don't you tell us. Tell the whole world," looking none too impressed -- then tacks on his JB "lovable oaf" smile.

 

Jim Bob has always struck me as a terribly insecure and power-hungry man. He's always beating his own children at games and challenges and dousing his helmet of hair with hairspray, probably reminiscing about all the bad haircuts he had as a kid and repeating silently to his reflection in the mirror, never again! He married Michelle when she was a young girl whose faith was brand new and very impressionable, and probably gets off on being her spiritual leader and the fact that she worships him. Then they had child after child after child, almost as if Jim Bob was trying to prove his virility, his maniless, and make up his own personal army in defense of anyone who ever called him poor or scrappy or stupid when he was a kid.

 

I wonder if JB objects to his children attending college because he's so small and insecure that he'd be threatened if they turned out smarter than him?

 

So if one day some of the adult Duggar children came forward and said, "The way we were raised was really messed up and it was all under our dad's thumb," would your attitudes towards them change? Would the things we see now as totally ridiculous start to make sense?

[singsingsing]

I think it's already common knowledge here that they were all emotionally abused. I don't think it's possible to be raised in a fundamentalist, quiverfull, ATI household and not suffer some kind of emotional abuse in the process.

[txmommyof4]

No, because I already know that's why they do what they do. I was, in fact, called Joshie's fangirl because I feel for him. :D. I am alright with being all their fangirl because these kids have never known anything real. I think in time they will all lighten up a lot.

[BrownieMomma]

The public adult children are behaving predictably, well just the three - Josh, Jill, Jessa. The others are more private, so harder to speculate about them.

I think the married three are doing exactly what they were raised to do, so if they came out with allegations it wouldn't change my perspective on their current adult situation but I would expect them to change their situations at least somewhat - perhaps give up quiverfull, ATI, but not necessarily expect them to give up being Christian. I think it would take a very long time to change other beliefs such as abortion and LBQT rights.

I guess that would really be true for the more private adult offspring - I would expect to see some changes in their lifestyle choice but I don't think my understanding of their adult lives would change much. I think they are pretty well trapped.

[Mela99]

"if"?

That ship has sailed, hit an iceberg, and killed 1500 people.

[eh02]

I think JB+M mean well in how they raise their kids. I really think they believe their kids have not suffered because of the lifestyle (and family size) they chose. It's hard to say emotional abuse, because I guess abuse sort of implies that it was intentional, but I think this level of emotional neglect is really no different from emotional abuse, unfortunately.

Michelle might truly be mentally ill IMO. I stand by thinking she's the leader of their beliefs and Jim Bob just nods his head in agreement. Those kids are going to have serious baggage. As much as the adult ones can irritate me, I feel really bad for them all - yes, even Josh - and I hope that with time they can all find their own way and release some of the weight of their messed up family.

[Belugaloo]

I was emotionally abused/neglected throughout my entire childhood/teenagehood. I don't think it would change my attitude towards the adult childrens choices, but it would help explain them. For example, someone who knows about my childhood understands why I act the way I do towards men. If they understand what I went through in childhood, they can also connect the dots as to why I am so sensitive to issues pertaining to childrens rights, etc. etc.

Knowing about any abuse the Duggar children have experienced could help explain any weird little "things" they have, why they act a certain way, etc.

[doggie]

I think JB+M mean well in how they raise their kids. I really think they believe their kids have not suffered because of the lifestyle (and family size) they chose. It's hard to say emotional abuse, because I guess abuse sort of implies that it was intentional, but I think this level of emotional neglect is really no different from emotional abuse, unfortunately.

the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[HarleyQuinn]

I already think some are being emotionally abused. Aside from favorites Josh, Jill, and Josie, whom I could care less about, I would feel for the others. You can kind of already see it. The OP gave a good example of Jessa. Then there's Josiah that Boob has physically manhandled in one of his games and seemingly doesn't care for at all. Jana gets more parental duties forced on her. He tries to scare Jenni when she's a baby. Jinger is shrinking and James is always sullen. I would hate to have JB and J'chelle as parents.

[Belugaloo]

I think JB+M mean well in how they raise their kids. I really think they believe their kids have not suffered because of the lifestyle (and family size) they chose. It's hard to say emotional abuse, because I guess abuse sort of implies that it was intentional, but I think this level of emotional neglect is really no different from emotional abuse, unfortunately.

Michelle might truly be mentally ill IMO. I stand by thinking she's the leader of their beliefs and Jim Bob just nods his head in agreement. Those kids are going to have serious baggage. As much as the adult ones can irritate me, I feel really bad for them all - yes, even Josh - and I hope that with time they can all find their own way and release some of the weight of their messed up family.

I personally hate it when people excuse abuse because the parents "meant well." My Mom meant well. Parents who beat their kids usually truly think they are helping them by inflicting horrible pain on them.

I don't doubt my mothers love for me, or that she wanted what was best for me, but it doesn't change the fact that she was an evil, emotionally abusive and neglectful parent for the vast majority of my childhood.

I am also pretty sure my Mom has some pretty big mental deficiencies, but it doesn't excuse the fact that she left me to raise myself when I was in 6th grade. She checked out emotionally, and only checked back in when it came to screaming at me, etc.

In all honesty, I think a lot of abuse is unintentional.... Some people just don't give a shit, some people really are that oblivious (my Mom), and some people just don't know how to properly parent so they screw up their kids in the name of "trying their best" (also my Mom.)

It doesn't change the fact that they sucked as parents.

Note: This is not a personal attack against you, eh02, just something that bugs me because I hear it often. It strikes a cord with me because I spent my entire childhood having my feelings invalidated, and the idea that I have just dreamt up my Moms abuse, or that I was just a "brat" is a very hard feeling for me to overcome.... Anyway, just wanted to let you know that I am not in any way attacking you in my response!

[Feberin]

Aside from favorites Josh, Jill, and Josie, whom I could care less about, I would feel for the others. You can kind of already see it.

I'm curious why you think those three haven't suffered the same toll of being raised a Duggar? I'm not sure Josie has suffered much yet but as she grows up being the miracle baby will be tiring and I don't think she will enjoy the same close knit relationship with her siblings since she is singled out so much by her parents for praise and attention.

Jill suffered as much as Jana in my opinion in terms of being forced to raise her siblings. She has spoken about changing Joy's diapers. She was only six years old when Joy was born! I do think Jana had some extra responsibilities being the eldest daughter but I think Jill was definitely put to work and while she may have a servant's heart or whatever that doesn't make it less wrong that at six years old she was expected to help raise her younger sister.

Josh suffered in different ways then his sisters. I don't think he had the same amount of chores as them but his parents were figuring out how to do things with him. He speaks about being expected to confess any impure thoughts to his parents on his website and that alone sounds horrible to me. Plus it's suspected that he was sent away to ALERT and the whole "sin in the camp" rumor.

[Walking Cat Bed]

I don't expect the Duggar kidults to immediately change their views when they leave home. Twenty-plus years of brainwashing can't be overturned in only a month or two. It takes time and distance from the family compound.

[eh02]

I personally hate it when people excuse abuse because the parents "meant well." My Mom meant well. Parents who beat their kids usually truly think they are helping them by inflicting horrible pain on them.

In all honesty, I think a lot of abuse is unintentional.... Some people just don't give a shit, some people really are that oblivious (my Mom), and some people just don't know how to properly parent so they screw up their kids in the name of "trying their best" (also my Mom.)

It doesn't change the fact that they sucked as parents.

Maybe I should have clarified: I did not at all mean that it is not abuse because they "mean well." Just that people see a smiling mom and dad and assume all is good. Michelle especially seems to love this abstract idea of family and children, but in reality, she doesn't even see her children as human beings. She just pops them out, one after another, expecting them all to be mini-Michelles and Jim Bobs. Supporting your children is not just the absence of physical abuse or anger outbursts. It's all the things that the Duggar parents are not able (or don't want) to give their kids that makes the difference. One on one time. Appreciating them as individuals. Allowing them to find their own way and make mistakes. Age-appropriate freedom and responsibilities. All of those missing pieces add up and there you have it - neglect. Emotional abuse.

I do think Michelle is mentally ill, honestly. I think she is the one driving the insanity in that house, and has been since the day they ditched the birth control. Is that an excuse? Of course not. She is the adult, she is the parent, she is the one who chose to keep having children, she is the one responsible. But it's some sort of explanation, at least, and I do think when you're looking at this kind of thing critically, intent gives you some perspective on why things happened the way they did. Something in her was so obsessed with the IDEA of being family-focused that she was (and still is) utterly unable to see that she barely knows the children she supposedly loves so much, and that her stifling who they are is incredibly cruel and dangerous. The motive behind it makes no difference in whether it's abuse or not. But understanding the intent and reason behind things can help children with abusive or toxic parents understanding and move on. Unfortunately, I think it's harder for everyone, including the children involved, to see abuse for what it is when it's done with a smile on the abuser's face.

Basically, intent is irrelevant when it comes to abuse, and particularly with child abuse. Those kids have been treated like human cattle from day 1. I'm pretty sure Michelle's only parenting goals are to keep them alive and "pure" until marriage, pair them off with a willing partner, and pray that they procreate. Though with all the footage we've seen of kids doing incredibly dangerous things unsupervised, maybe they don't even care so much about keeping them alive...

[DefrauderDaughter]

My fundie-lite preacher father is a lot like Jim Bob (shocker) and he emotionally abused me as much as a noncustodial parent with supervised visitation could. He called me a harlot and said I was "defrauding to my brothers in Christ" because I wore a lot of make up when I was a young teenager (it was a phase I regret, but only because I looked horrible.)

So yes, I completely agree that the kids were/are emotionally abused. I feel bad for all of them, although I don't agree with the things they do sometimes.

[DGayle]

They are already emotionally neglected, but it wouldn't change my opinion on the adult kids. There reaches a point where you have to take responsibility for yourself. The Duggar kids, including the girls, have opportunities that most fundies don't get. Blaming the parents for your choices shouldn't be used as a lifelong excuse.

[HarleyQuinn]

I'm curious why you think those three haven't suffered the same toll of being raised a Duggar? I'm not sure Josie has suffered much yet but as she grows up being the miracle baby will be tiring and I don't think she will enjoy the same close knit relationship with her siblings since she is singled out so much by her parents for praise and attention.

Jill suffered as much as Jana in my opinion in terms of being forced to raise her siblings. She has spoken about changing Joy's diapers. She was only six years old when Joy was born! I do think Jana had some extra responsibilities being the eldest daughter but I think Jill was definitely put to work and while she may have a servant's heart or whatever that doesn't make it less wrong that at six years old she was expected to help raise her younger sister.

Josh suffered in different ways then his sisters. I don't think he had the same amount of chores as them but his parents were figuring out how to do things with him. He speaks about being expected to confess any impure thoughts to his parents on his website and that alone sounds horrible to me. Plus it's suspected that he was sent away to ALERT and the whole "sin in the camp" rumor.

Josie being the miracle is never going go through what any of the other children have. She'll probably get away with everything, and if she does attempt to rebel as a teen, JB&M are going to be too damn old to deal with it.

Jill did do as much as Jana, but I feel like Jill actually enjoyed all of it. She seems to love this lifestyle and had no problem raising all of those kids. Her smug face in the wedding episode where she said "We are going to have as many children as God will give us and will not prevent that in anyways" wasn't just towing the party line. She was being a holier than thou bitch about it.

Then Josh...well, fuck Josh. :lol:

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

My opinion on their behavior is driven by the fact that I know they're emotional, physically, and mentally abused and/or neglected. There's no way you can't at least be neglected in that family, and abuse is the foundation of Gothard's teaching (especially mental abuse, which is "impairing the mental life and impeding mental development"). And, because, as children, they were encouraged to only associate with like minded people, and they were taught that any way of life other than their own was evil, these adults are still living with the ramifications of those abuses. The only ones to have left the house are the ones who are married to people who were approved by JB. That means Ben, Anna, and Derick all had to be like minded enough that they wouldn't encourage their spouses to leave (or at least leave quickly). All the other adults have been kept under the watchful eye of their parents and siblings.

Unless these adults realize the wrongs done to them and actively seek help, their lives have dictated by their abuse. And, honestly, it's going to have to come down to associating with people that JB and Michelle don't approve of to do it. It's quite possible that Josh is already on that path, but he also has to find a way to take Anna with him. And, I don't know how well Anna will transition with that because her whole definition of who she is is dependent on what Gothard believes women should be. That's why she got "baby fever" so quickly: Gothard teaches that the only purpose a woman has is to make a man's quiver full of arrows for the lord.

[eri]

Maybe I should have clarified: I did not at all mean that it is not abuse because they "mean well." Just that people see a smiling mom and dad and assume all is good. Michelle especially seems to love this abstract idea of family and children, but in reality, she doesn't even see her children as human beings. She just pops them out, one after another, expecting them all to be mini-Michelles and Jim Bobs. Supporting your children is not just the absence of physical abuse or anger outbursts. It's all the things that the Duggar parents are not able (or don't want) to give their kids that makes the difference. One on one time. Appreciating them as individuals. Allowing them to find their own way and make mistakes. Age-appropriate freedom and responsibilities. All of those missing pieces add up and there you have it - neglect. Emotional abuse.

I do think Michelle is mentally ill, honestly. I think she is the one driving the insanity in that house, and has been since the day they ditched the birth control. Is that an excuse? Of course not. She is the adult, she is the parent, she is the one who chose to keep having children, she is the one responsible. But it's some sort of explanation, at least, and I do think when you're looking at this kind of thing critically, intent gives you some perspective on why things happened the way they did. Something in her was so obsessed with the IDEA of being family-focused that she was (and still is) utterly unable to see that she barely knows the children she supposedly loves so much, and that her stifling who they are is incredibly cruel and dangerous. The motive behind it makes no difference in whether it's abuse or not. But understanding the intent and reason behind things can help children with abusive or toxic parents understanding and move on. Unfortunately, I think it's harder for everyone, including the children involved, to see abuse for what it is when it's done with a smile on the abuser's face.

Basically, intent is irrelevant when it comes to abuse, and particularly with child abuse. Those kids have been treated like human cattle from day 1. I'm pretty sure Michelle's only parenting goals are to keep them alive and "pure" until marriage, pair them off with a willing partner, and pray that they procreate. Though with all the footage we've seen of kids doing incredibly dangerous things unsupervised, maybe they don't even care so much about keeping them alive...

Don't hold Michelle accountable for the parenting decisions. JimBob is the head of household.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Don't hold Michelle accountable for the parenting decisions. JimBob is the head of household.

If that woman didn't agree with the way the house was being run, you better believe it wouldn't be run that way. JB might be a ignorant fool, but he won't risk losing Michelle. Michelle and Jim Bob willingly made the decisions they did TOGETHER.

[DGayle]

Don't hold Michelle accountable for the parenting decisions. JimBob is the head of household.

I think Michelle is doing something called "topping form the bottom," where a submissive actually has the control. JB is so pampered that I don't think he could handle Mommy/Wifey Dearest if she got mad. Think about it like this. If someone was always baby-talking you and pampered you and made you the king, and then she flashed on anger and told you in a super sweet way that was laced with acid that this is how it's going to be, by the way, do you want sugar in your tea?, you might be shocked enough to go along with it. We've seen flashes in Michelle, and I think she's the real head of that household.

[eri]

I think Michelle is doing something called "topping form the bottom," where a submissive actually has the control. JB is so pampered that I don't think he could handle Mommy/Wifey Dearest if she got mad. Think about it like this. If someone was always baby-talking you and pampered you and made you the king, and then she flashed on anger and told you in a super sweet way that was laced with acid that this is how it's going to be, by the way, do you want sugar in your tea?, you might be shocked enough to go along with it. We've seen flashes in Michelle, and I think she's the real head of that household.

Sorry, I'm allergic to MRA bullshit.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I think both Michelle and Jimbob are equally to blame, and both have issues. They chose this life, and were raised normally, they made a conscious decision to follow these beliefs. Jimbob comes across as a pathetic, insecure little man who lords it all over his minions that he is better than him because he has sex. It always seems like having a whole bunch of kids is his way of proving that his dick works and that he is having sex, and the way that he is always practically humping Michelle is disgusting. He doesn't like having people be better than him, he always has to be the best. It doesn't make him feel like a man to be humiliated by his own kid, especially a girl one as they are the least important in their culture. I think the whole reason he is sheltering his kids and keeping them from pursuing anything better is because he cant stand the idea of someone being smarter than him, especially the minions he created to be better than. Michelle is a narcissistic fame whoring baby addict who has not shown genuine emotion in years. She is emotionally distant and seems to know nothing about any of her kids. Everything about her comes across as so fake, from her mother of the year status to that creepy smile and baby voice. They both have sold out and forgotten who they are just for money and fame, and not only do I think they would sell their child's soul if it meant more money...they have, 19 times.

I think the kids are emotionally and spiritually abused and I feel for all of them. Some are more sympathetic than others, but I feel for every one of those poor kids, from Josh all down to Josie.

[roddma]

I will have to be honest and not meaning to offend anyone who has been abused, but I gather parents in these legalistic beliefs do think it is best for the child. Most of them grew up in less than stellar environments. I read Kelly Bates said her and Gil didnt want their kids to relive their past whatver that meant.They dont see they are actually doing more harm than good by emotionally stifling a child and not letting them gain life experience.

[SassyPants]

I think both Michelle and Jimbob are equally to blame, and both have issues. They chose this life, and were raised normally, they made a conscious decision to follow these beliefs. Jimbob comes across as a pathetic, insecure little man who lords it all over his minions that he is better than him because he has sex. It always seems like having a whole bunch of kids is his way of proving that his dick works and that he is having sex, and the way that he is always practically humping Michelle is disgusting. He doesn't like having people be better than him, he always has to be the best. It doesn't make him feel like a man to be humiliated by his own kid, especially a girl one as they are the least important in their culture. I think the whole reason he is sheltering his kids and keeping them from pursuing anything better is because he cant stand the idea of someone being smarter than him, especially the minions he created to be better than. Michelle is a narcissistic fame whoring baby addict who has not shown genuine emotion in years. She is emotionally distant and seems to know nothing about any of her kids. Everything about her comes across as so fake, from her mother of the year status to that creepy smile and baby voice. They both have sold out and forgotten who they are just for money and fame, and not only do I think they would sell their child's soul if it meant more money...they have, 19 times.

I think the kids are emotionally and spiritually abused and I feel for all of them. Some are more sympathetic than others, but I feel for every one of those poor kids, from Josh all down to Josie.

100% accurate :clap:

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I will have to be honest and not meaning to offend anyone who has been abused, but I gather parents in these legalistic beliefs do think it is best for the child. Most of them grew up in less than stellar environments. I read Kelly Bates said her and Gil didnt want their kids to relive their past whatver that meant.They dont see they are actually doing more harm than good by emotionally stifling a child and not letting them gain life experience.

The problem with cults is they do make it seem like their approach will make people happier in the long run, and they then proceed to teach their followers that they "are happier" and "are thankful."

I don't think that the Bateses or Duggars set out to abuse their kids, but they had some kind of void they felt their faith filled. And that faith then promised them that they and their children and their children's children would have great lives, provided they did as they were instructed. It then promised that if the whole family didn't follow the instructions, terrible things would happen to them, their children, and/or their children's children.

Then, the parents were presented with instructions on how to be abusers. Obviously it wasn't worded like that -- they came in forms of books and booklets on how to be godly or whatever -- but that was the message hidden in the words. And, these parents then followed the protocol and became abusive.

I don't believe that Michelle, Jim Bob, Kelly, or Gil would have been the type of parents they are today if they hadn't found ATI/IBLP (or whatever the acronym is). Sure, there would be some things that wouldn't have changed (like JB's pettiness and immaturity), but there wouldn't have been abuse.

That, of course, doesn't excuse them. They still made the decision to follow and keep following a very dangerous cult. But, it's an explanation.