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So remember that dog Erika Shupe got?


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I looked up the Australian rules. Our rules seem a little different. Here, a person with an assistance dog can apply for a "Handler Identity Card" and "People in charge of public places, and in charge of public passenger vehicles may ask to see this card to ensure the dog is certified under the Act." I haven't read enough to work out how a dog gets certified but obviously there is a system here.

I do know the rules for regular dogs - inside out and back to front. (I think dog owners have a responsibility to our dogs and to other people in society so I learnt the rules.) I can't take my dogs within 10m of any eating area unless it is a private establishment with outdoor facilities that permits animals. So, no to bbq areas at the local parks, no to McDonalds but yes to the wonderful cafe that I visit everyday while out jogging with my pups. The fines for breaking the rules start at $2500. I wonder what the rules are in Erika's area?

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I wonder what "issues" she was having...and where the poor dog ended up.

She posted about it on facebook. She asked about getting a ShiTzu and various people said it was a bad idea because they are not a family friendly dog, hard to housttrain, require extensive grooming, have separation anxiety. Then when she had problems with the dog peeing everywhere and having separation anxiety she acted like it was new information.

I'm sort of wondering why she so hung up on having a shih tzu in the first place since the issues she's going to have with the puppy are going to be the same. if she's really hung up on having a fluffy little lap dog I'm sure there are other breeds that are a lot more family friendly

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To be honest? Most of the toy breeds are NOT good kid dogs, and pretty much all of them are hard to train. (I think my picks as a trainer for toy-sized, kid friendly dogs would be (standard) rat terrier, pug, or cavalier king charles spaniel. Two of these three have health problems and are pricey from reputable breeders; the first is a very 'workmanlike' dog and doesn't appeal to a lot of the people who imagine a fuzzy exaggerated toy-sized dog, plus is fairly unknown as a 'breed' since they weren't AKC recognized until quite recently. (BUt the little farm dog rat terrier as a type is a very old one. They tend to be a little bit more of a 'generalist' and less intense than the go-to-ground hunt terriers like JRTs.) I suspect Erika just likes the look, honestly, and aesthetic preference ends up as a big thing in many people's dog selection (much to my frustration- I volunteer with husky rescue). They generally convince themselves that if they get a puppy, 'it's all in how you raise them!' and their dog will somehow grow up not to have any of the negative breed traits...

Miggy - I know rules are pretty different in AU from the US- I think you guys may actually have mandatory certification, and it may be on a state level rather than national, but I'm not well-versed enough in it to say.

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I can't help but think of an old boss of mine who constantly talked about getting a small lap dog since she'd always had very large dogs (she had a Vizsla and Great Dane when I first started working for her). Imagine my surprise when I came to work one day and met the "lap dog"––a Jack Russell. When I asked her if she knew ANYTHING about the breed before she bought the dog (from a puppy mill kind of pet store) because a Jack Russell is no lap dog, she just replied that she and her husband would "train" it. I don't even want to think about what that training involved but they absolutely broke that poor dog. She sat in a bed in the corner all day long and when Boss Husband would pass by, you could see her getting agitated. Unfortunately, or fortunately for me anyway, I never SAW them abusing the dog because I absolutely would have reported it, but it didn't take a genius to figure out why the pup was so "well-behaved." It's been nearly 20 years and I still wonder what happened to the dog.

I know it can be difficult with rescues–-although reputable group will do the best they can to assess a dog's temperament and place it accordingly--but people who don't research a breed before jumping in are asking for trouble, both for themselves and for the dog. Our pup was abandoned outside of a rescue group when she was about 3 months old so they knew little about her but it was fairly obvious once we got her home that she'd had a lot of trauma and abuse in her life. We worked with her constantly, showering her with affections, investing many hours and dollars in humane care and training. We accept that she'll always have some issues and we've adjusted accordingly. We would never, ever consider forcing this little square peg into a round hole that's completely wrong for her. And I can't tell you how much we adore this dog. She's not an inconvenience, she's not disposable, she's a member of our family and we can't imagine life without her. (ETA: We did actually think that we might have to re-home her at one point because she was absolutely out of control and very aggressive, attacking our other pets and our daughter. It went on for weeks but with a lot of work we were finally able to get through and things improved to the point that we were able to focus on gentle behavior modification.)

Erika has neither the patience nor the mindset to deal with something that shakes up her strictly ordered world. My heart breaks for any dog she brings home and if she chooses to re-home again, the dog will be better for it.

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My daughter has a Shihtzu/Tibetan spaniel cross who, except for the very occasional housetraining lapse, is about the mellowest, easiest little dog I've ever known. He's fine with being in his roomy kennel when she's at work, gets along with the cat, my big goofy dog, and little kids. He never yaps, never snaps.

He's great. But he definitely resists training. I can teach my old Lab/Shepherd/mystery guy commands in a couple of sessions that the little one just doesn't get after years of my daughters' trying, and I don't think that's because I'm an awesome trainer. Breed characteristics are real.

Perhaps people who think children are infinitely malleable to a preset batch of characteristics think the same of dogs.

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Yep -- my roommate and I cared for a dog for about a month, and every day it was more and more obvious that we were not her humans. So we found her humans, and she is SO HAPPY now. (We knew the guy already, his dog and Harley got along well, and he has space for a young, energetic, anxious dog to run and play.)

Also roommate's cat, the Feline Headship, was NOT having a dog in His house. He gets along nicely with my kitten, though -- they chase each other and wrestle and nap on the same blanket.

THAT is rehoming. Erika dumped the dog.

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About a year ago in her yearly rant about Hallowen, I asked her what she does since the costumes scar hr kids, I asked did she keep the kids locked up from labor day to the 1st of November, she said no,, the kids just cover there eyes when walking past them in the stores,,

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My daughter has a Shihtzu/Tibetan spaniel cross who, except for the very occasional housetraining lapse, is about the mellowest, easiest little dog I've ever known. He's fine with being in his roomy kennel when she's at work, gets along with the cat, my big goofy dog, and little kids. He never yaps, never snaps.

He's great. But he definitely resists training. I can teach my old Lab/Shepherd/mystery guy commands in a couple of sessions that the little one just doesn't get after years of my daughters' trying, and I don't think that's because I'm an awesome trainer. Breed characteristics are real.

Perhaps people who think children are infinitely malleable to a preset batch of characteristics think the same of dogs.

My Shih tzu is not very well trained (we're still working on house training), but she does have ME pretty well trained. She's trained me to put the cat food plate down on the floor when she wants a bite and she's trained me to put her up on the couch when she wants up. Chloe has learned one thing recently though. She's learned to take a flying leap when she wants to get up on the deck. It's really funny to watch her do this. She's take a couple of steps backward and then run and jump up one step. She learned this, btw, from watching my dachshund!

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To be honest? Most of the toy breeds are NOT good kid dogs, and pretty much all of them are hard to train. (I think my picks as a trainer for toy-sized, kid friendly dogs would be (standard) rat terrier, pug, or cavalier king charles spaniel. Two of these three have health problems and are pricey from reputable breeders; the first is a very 'workmanlike' dog and doesn't appeal to a lot of the people who imagine a fuzzy exaggerated toy-sized dog, plus is fairly unknown as a 'breed' since they weren't AKC recognized until quite recently. (BUt the little farm dog rat terrier as a type is a very old one. They tend to be a little bit more of a 'generalist' and less intense than the go-to-ground hunt terriers like JRTs.) I suspect Erika just likes the look, honestly, and aesthetic preference ends up as a big thing in many people's dog selection (much to my frustration- I volunteer with husky rescue). They generally convince themselves that if they get a puppy, 'it's all in how you raise them!' and their dog will somehow grow up not to have any of the negative breed traits...

Mango - You volunteer at a husky rescue? You are my hero! Thank you. I love my huskies to bits but they aren't exactly the easiest dogs. So many end up dumped because people like the idea of one but can't cope with the reality. We did a lot of research before we got our first and they fit our family well. I wish everyone else would do the same.

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try training a Dachshund, two of them,,, you would have better luck training a giraffe to balance a beach ball on its nose

Well, there is this famous quote by writer EB White about dachshunds:

"Being the owner of dachshunds, to me a book on dog discipline becomes a volume of inspired humor. Every sentence is a riot. Some day, if I ever get a chance, I shall write a book, or warning, on the character and temperament of the dachshund and why he can't be trained and shouldn't be. I would rather train a striped zebra to balance an Indian club than induce a dachshund to heed my slightest command. When I address Fred I never have to raise either my voice or my hopes. He even disobeys me when I instruct him in something he wants to do."

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I'm probably going to piss off a lot of people right now, but I don't care.

A service dog SHOULD be registered. A doctor should need to fill out a form, a vet should need to verify shots, and it should be submitted to the SSA department that handles disabilities. A patch or visible tag should be issued. That should be all there is, and no questions asked. There isn't a feasible way to prove training, but I don't think anyone willing to get that paperwork done and submitted would go through the hassle only to not train their animal.

Why? Why should this be done? No, it doesn't make the nature of disability anyone's information, but it would cut out all the idiots who don't need service animals, but who want to take their animals everywhere anyway. The people who LIE about their pets being service animals are the ones who make soldiers with PTSD have to deal will bullshit. When you're in an area where more people claim their pets are service animals because taking Fluffy to the store is fun and fun means happy, than people taking legit service dogs, it's really hard not to start thinking that there's a damned good chance that that chihuahua that just got out of its collar and tried biting your daughter is really a pet instead of an animal whose at the store to do a job who just happened to be sick that day and acting up, or not think that big dog that left its owner's side to bite at the steak on your plate is really someone's pet instead of a service dog that just hasn't had a chance to eat that day (both of those have happened to us). I think people who legitimately need and use service animals would get less shit about it if there was a way to weed out the liars, and my suggested way still doesn't disclose the disability. It only gives a small emblem proving that this is indeed a service animal, keeps the disability between the person, doctor, and SSA (a vet can verify shots without needing to know the disability), so back off and don't even ask about tasks. It's no different than a disabled parking placard that verifies, without disclosing disability, that someone has a right to that space. If we had an honor system, who the hell thinks there'd ever be open accessible parking for those who need it?

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Mango - You volunteer at a husky rescue? You are my hero! Thank you. I love my huskies to bits but they aren't exactly the easiest dogs. So many end up dumped because people like the idea of one but can't cope with the reality. We did a lot of research before we got our first and they fit our family well. I wish everyone else would do the same.

This is why I don't fault people who get breeds. Not everyone can take a chance on literally whatever mix they get from a pound. If you can, great! I love pound doggies! But to be real, if you get a dog that looks like X and ends up being hyper-hyper, hard-to-train Y, you could be seriously fucked. One of my aunts got a dog that looked like a small sheltie, older pup, but then it grew and grew and resisted training, and she ended up having it DNA'd. It ended up being husky with a touch of Australian shepherd. She had the space and money for a damn good trainer, but what about people who don't? It's not fair to say don't get a dog at all if you can't handle literally anything you get. And it's not fair to the dogs.

I got a husky back before the internet made research easy, and all there were were breed books that made every dog breed sound ideal. I loved my dog until the day she passed, but if I knew what I was able to learn on the internet today, I wouldn't have gotten a husky.

Breed traits are very real. I think the "it's all how you raise them" mentality is thanks to people trying to end discrimination against pit breeds. But it's carrying over and making people think that there isn't any such real thing as breed traits, and then you get people like Erica going for what looks cute instead of what might fit her life best. Chinese cresteds don't have much fur to shed, are pretty easy to train, only slightly stubborn, and are good for someone like Erica, but they're not the "cute and fluffy" dogs.

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DGayle,

I could not agree with you more about registering service animals. My daughter told me about a girl that brought her "service pig" on an airplane. The trouble was that her pig was completely untrained and created havoc -and a huge mess on the plane. I cannot vouch for the veracity of that account, but if it's true registration would have helped.

My mom and dad used to have a black Lab who'd been trained as a guide dog. He refused to work with another blind person when his former master died. My parents ended up adopting him and he was the sweetest, most gentle and best behaved dog ever. I remember that he always slept under the kitchen table during dinner. I still have his leash that was attached to his guide dog harness.

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I'm probably going to piss off a lot of people right now, but I don't care.

A service dog SHOULD be registered. A doctor should need to fill out a form, a vet should need to verify shots, and it should be submitted to the SSA department that handles disabilities. A patch or visible tag should be issued. That should be all there is, and no questions asked. There isn't a feasible way to prove training, but I don't think anyone willing to get that paperwork done and submitted would go through the hassle only to not train their animal.

Why? Why should this be done? No, it doesn't make the nature of disability anyone's information, but it would cut out all the idiots who don't need service animals, but who want to take their animals everywhere anyway. The people who LIE about their pets being service animals are the ones who make soldiers with PTSD have to deal will bullshit. When you're in an area where more people claim their pets are service animals because taking Fluffy to the store is fun and fun means happy, than people taking legit service dogs, it's really hard not to start thinking that there's a damned good chance that that chihuahua that just got out of its collar and tried biting your daughter is really a pet instead of an animal whose at the store to do a job who just happened to be sick that day and acting up, or not think that big dog that left its owner's side to bite at the steak on your plate is really someone's pet instead of a service dog that just hasn't had a chance to eat that day (both of those have happened to us). I think people who legitimately need and use service animals would get less shit about it if there was a way to weed out the liars, and my suggested way still doesn't disclose the disability. It only gives a small emblem proving that this is indeed a service animal, keeps the disability between the person, doctor, and SSA (a vet can verify shots without needing to know the disability), so back off and don't even ask about tasks. It's no different than a disabled parking placard that verifies, without disclosing disability, that someone has a right to that space. If we had an honor system, who the hell thinks there'd ever be open accessible parking for those who need it?

Piss me off? Not really. I don't think you are operating with all the information.

Here's the problem. You can't get a doctor to prescribe a service dog. It just can't be done. Why? You can't go to the pharmacy and pick one up. Trust me. There are a multitude of peer reviewed studies that state that service dogs are beneficial to individuals with PTSD. I have 10 to 15 printed and likely twice that in my reading queue. But try to get a treating physician to state in writing that they believe that a service dog is necessary or even recommended for a specific patient and they won't. I have been trying for months at this point to get any member of my husband's treatment team to give a written statement that the dog is part of his treatment, or at least a useful component of his treatment and not a single physican will commit it to writing. Not one. Even though my husband is facing some pretty active discrimination by his command structure for having the dog which is why we need the damn letter in the first place.

And there is no way on earth it would be as simple as "filling out a form". I have learned the hard way that nothing involving Social Security, the military or the VA is a simple process. We are on our fourth year of the claims process. Four years. We have filled out form after form after form. They are lost. They go to the wrong department. Do you know how many times I have filled out the form that allows the VA to talk to me about my husbands case? Sixteen. Sixteen and counting. Forgive me if I have zero faith that any additional oversight would result in anything other than headache, hassle, and soul crushing disappointment.

Most serivce dogs are chipped. Their vaccination records are tied to their chips. That is easily checked.

The other flaw in your theory is that not all persons with service animals are in any way tied to Social Security. I would venture to guess that most are not.

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DGayle,

I could not agree with you more about registering service animals. My daughter told me about a girl that brought her "service pig" on an airplane. The trouble was that her pig was completely untrained and created havoc -and a huge mess on the plane. I cannot vouch for the veracity of that account, but if it's true registration would have helped.

My mom and dad used to have a black Lab who'd been trained as a guide dog. He refused to work with another blind person when his former master died. My parents ended up adopting him and he was the sweetest, most gentle and best behaved dog ever. I remember that he always slept under the kitchen table during dinner. I still have his leash that was attached to his guide dog harness.

The pig on the airplane was an "emotional support animal" not a service animal. They are two separate things and are even covered differently in ADA law. I am not a fan of emotional support animals as they do not go through the training that serivce animals do. Anything can be an emotional support animal. A service animal is trained to perform specific tasks.

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Lip, if there was a formal process in place, that would make it easier. Right now, what's a doctor going to do? Is there anything more that can be done other than write on some letterhead? If a system was formalized, that would help. There are forms for doctors to fill out for family medical leave, for SSDI, for all kinds of other things related to medical and mental health care. A simple form for a doctor to fill out stating, to SSA, why an animal will be beneficial to the patient and for what condition that goes into the person's file (which is confidential) would go a great way toward cutting out the people who just don't want to leave Fluffy at home. It would help cut out the liars who are making it so hard for your husband.

Also I think most "emotional support animals" are a crock. PTSD is a valid condition, but there are people who claim that leaving Fluffy at home for the day is emotionally damaging sine they feel guilty if Fluffy has to be alone for a few hours, and so claim Fluffy is there for emotional support. One of my personal friends does that, and it pisses me off. People take advantage of this, and it hurts the people who really need animals and who get a lot of shit every day for it.

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