Fear of Islamisation: new right-wing movement in Germany

[samurai_sarah]

Well, it's not precisely new, but it's escalating. Basically, almost every week, there's a protest march in some city or another. In Dresden, apparently, every Monday. The organisers call themselves PEGIDA, short for "Patriotic Europeans against the Islamisation of the West".

Here's a news article about them that provides an overview of what's going on: http://www.dw.de/pegida-determining-pol ... a-18124875

From the article:

While the initial demonstrations were against what PEGIDA called "religious wars" being carried out in Germany - after isolated fights between Kurds and Sunni Muslims were reported in some cities - the demonstrations have turned out to be about much more than "Islamization." Asylum abuse, the mainstream press, the preservation of German identity, and even the "early sexualization of children," have been favorite themes among the protesters.

Bolding mine, because now this has happened: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/1 ... 14354.html

Basically, someone set a fire to a, yet unoccupied, shelter for asylum seekers and smeared anti-foreigner slogans and swastikas on the walls.

At the same time, the newspapers have been busily reporting on an on-going court-case against neo-Nazis, who specifically targeted and murdered people whom they perceived to be of Turkish descent: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/m ... -neo-nazis

Sorry, older article. While this is big in Germany, it obviously doesn't get much attention in the English-speaking media.

I only mention the latter, because it does get attention in the media. Generally, people are rightfully appalled, and want nothing to do with Nazis, much less be called one. But between heavily attended "anti-Islamisation" protests, and now arson, I get a feeling that my oh-so-secular and tolerant country is experiencing its own shift towards extremism.

In the midst of all of this, one of our political parties suggested a law that would require migrants to Germany to speak German in their own homes. The gaffe was shot down quickly, and now they "only want to encourage migrants to speak German at home". The parliament is debating a law that would allow the authorities to quickly repatriate "asylum seekers, convicted of a crime", which has an awful lot to do with getting rid of "members of terror networks", and ignores the fact that most members of terror networks are, in fact, German citizens. Plus, one of our newest popular parties is decidedly right-wing.

I'm not sure if I'm only venting, or if I actually have a point. All the current debates and goings-on make my head spin. Whichever way I twist and turn it, nothing good can come of it. No disaffected person, with links to terrorism is going to see the protests, and think "oh right, I'll take up crocheting then". Few of the protesters, will see a larger picture, because I bet most would say "I'm not a Nazi/right-wing/racist, but [insert issue] needs to be addressed".

The way I see it, it's one big mess that will take a lot to sort out. I don't know what I'm thinking right now, what are you thinking?

(No links broken, they're all news-sites)

edited: grammar and riffles

[Anny Nym]

As a Austrian, sharing a border, language and also a little bit of history with Germany - but still taking the role of a "foreign guest on the fence" on this topic, I´d like to share my thoughts about it:

First thing , which I I have to say is: This was was predictabe. Why it was predictable? Because the german asylum and migration politics are a giant ball of utter chaos. Actually, the whole german politics are giant utter ball of chaos. Nobody understands what they are actually doing there.

There was, and is, so much mismanagement and corruption going on, which did lead to the creation of "soziale Brennpunkte" / focal points of social unrest on a dangerous high number.

You only can stuff human beings of different ethnic and religious backgrounds together for that long, WHILE NOT TAKING CARE OF THE SOCIAL AND PSYCHLOGICAL ASPECTS OF ALL INVOLVED PERSONS AND PROVIDING A ACTUAL CONCEPT (capitalized, because this is the crucial point and the root of the problem), until this barrel is spilling over.

And that is what is happening right now. And a big part of german politicans, along with a main part of the german media, seems to handle it as bad as possible.

Instead of asking about the worries of the citizens (EVERY Group of citizen) and evaluating the heaping problems, they run around and lash out "N*zis, N*zis all of them. Or at least idiots! Or worse, Ossis!" And this is simple not true.

Not to mention the latent continuing ignorance and "hating" against Germans from the former DDR regions. (I mean, really, give that poor guys a break! They had to pay 90% of the reparation payments and were forced to live under one of the most cruel dictatorships in Continental Europe for 40 years!)

And the media? Whow, display of awful and unnecessary arrogant "journalism" much ? Seriously, for some of the things, especially Der Spiegel and Die Zeit send out there, here the chief editors would be forced to swallow the whole print edition!

Well, at the end of the day, none of that is going to cut it. Because it is not tackling the problem and it is not tackling the worries of the people, who are simply fed up.

A "speak- german-at-home-law" is simple a idiotic Stammtischsager, and I would see it merely as a "brain-fart".

Instead of that, the CSU would be doing a far better job to reform a almost complete broken and outdated school system , which produces children - again, mainly in Brennpunkten and in the east-german regions, whose only perspective for life is Hartz4 Empfänger/ welfare recipient, because they simple can´t get a apprenticeship position. Let alone dreaming of attending University!

Summing up, pointing fingers at the PEGIDA protesters (who are, so far, non-violent and also have a very interesting logo) and trying to ridicule, forcibly shut them down or trying to make them into something they aren´t isn´t going to help anyone. Not the refugees, not the migrants, not the Germans, no-one!

It only helps the people, who are REALLY dangerous, imho.

[samurai_sarah]

I agree with you, on every point, except for the last. While I agree that it doesn't help to point fingers at PEGIDA, it is a symptom of something that has been going on for a long time. Unchecked. The trouble that I see, is not PEGIDA as such, but the underlying issues that no one ever wants to talk about. We need to talk about what's going on, and has been, for a long time.

[Mama Mia]

There was, and is, so much mismanagement and corruption going on, which did lead to the creation of "soziale Brennpunkte" / focal points of social unrest on a dangerous high number.

You only can stuff human beings of different ethnic and religious backgrounds together for that long, WHILE NOT TAKING CARE OF THE SOCIAL AND PSYCHLOGICAL ASPECTS OF ALL INVOLVED PERSONS AND PROVIDING A ACTUAL CONCEPT (capitalized, because this is the crucial point and the root of the problem), until this barrel is spilling over.

.

I know less than zero about this particular issue :embarrassed: . But I really hope you continue discussing it. I learn so much about the wider world from these sorts of discussions.

They really add balance to the "OMG a Duggar just frowned! That's obviously proof they are being held in chains in the basement at night!" Type threads. :lol:

I can imagine it must be extraordinarily difficult to balance out the needs/rights of people to protest policies they disagree with - with the over arching not so distant past of the horrors of Nazism. What a terrifying minefield! When I read that line about requiring immigrants speak German at home ....that went down a really awful slippery slope really fast.

I'm curious about the capitalized quote above. Could you elaborate on what you mean? The area I live in is basically bi-cultural. Two dominant languages and ethnic groups. With a smattering of other cultures/languages/groups. But the larger region is extremely diverse with a huge number of nationalities/languages/religions/cultures etc.. So I'm wondering how would a government address the issues you talk about?

Thank you for any thoughts.

[Anny Nym]

I know less than zero about this particular issue :embarrassed: . But I really hope you continue discussing it. I learn so much about the wider world from these sorts of discussions.

They really add balance to the "OMG a Duggar just frowned! That's obviously proof they are being held in chains in the basement at night!" Type threads. :lol:

I can imagine it must be extraordinarily difficult to balance out the needs/rights of people to protest policies they disagree with - with the over arching not so distant past of the horrors of Nazism. What a terrifying minefield! When I read that line about requiring immigrants speak German at home ....that went down a really awful slippery slope really fast.

I'm curious about the capitalized quote above. Could you elaborate on what you mean? The area I live in is basically bi-cultural. Two dominant languages and ethnic groups. With a smattering of other cultures/languages/groups. But the larger region is extremely diverse with a huge number of nationalities/languages/religions/cultures etc.. So I'm wondering how would a government address the issues you talk about?

Thank you for any thoughts.

Indeed, some Duggar threads are just Tim-Burton-Level strange. :lol:

ANd that one guy with the "speaking german at home"... Well, it´s like one of your FOX News guys ^^.

Okay, that was the easy part of replying to your post, now comes the more difficult and more serious one...

Now what do I mean? Well, I think there we have to make a slight excursion into the significant difference between the what US-citizens expect from their government in the USA and what we citizens in our continental-european, western countries expect from our austrian or german government (AT and GER share a very similar approach to our governing systems and the social state).

What we expect is, that the government ACTUALLY DOES intervene within it´s citizens lives (to a positive extent, NOT a Kim-Jong-Il kind of, that´s apples and oranges!) to "sort out stuff", "care for them" and "set things straight". Thats what people have died for*, that´s what we are paying them for, that´s what is (sucessfully) working for us and that´s what we are used to.

In a historical context, it is the case that large immigration of different ethnic and religious groups to continental-european countries like Germany is a relative new phenomen (in comparison to the USA).

Our expectations to the whole society as itself and ways of living differ from that ones you have in the USA, because our concept of state, society and politics differ. So concepts that are absolute no cause of problems in the USA, could be highly troublesome here - and Vice Versa of course!

And then there is of course the issue with recent history and how it seems to have greatly changed the way of approaching certain issues - or NOT approaching certain issues -"to avoid political controversy".

What I want to bring across is: Diversed immigration happened quite recent and also maybe on a somewhat fast speed, mainly as a side effect of the "Wirtschaftswunderjahre" / "economic miracle" years and ongoing globalization. So far, no problem. Unfortunately the government failed to provide a concept for qualitative integration and social diversity, which did lead to the creation of the "soziale Brennpunkte" and aided to the formation of so-called "paralell societies".

That all would have been avoidable, or could have been corrected earlier on, but - unfortunately again - everytime someone said in the past "Hey guys, we may have some troubles in that district or this corner. It would be cool, if we would work out something to provide a peaceful side-by-side of the people.", this person was quickly shut down and nothing happened. Sometimes even with the "N*zi-club".

Which isn´t helping anyone at all, because turning two times left is right again...

There is this saying in my country "Don´t listen to what the people say, but instead listen to what they DON´T say." and I think this describes in a nutshell the essence of what is going on right now with the PEGIDA movement.

As Samurai_Sarah said:

"The trouble that I see, is not PEGIDA as such, but the underlying issues that no one ever wants to talk about.

And there are ALOT of underlying issues, german politicans and the media seems to not want to talk about. I´m not talking about the NS-dictatorship time, I am mainly refering to the East-Germany and West-Germany issue. PEGIDA did start in former East-Germany.

OOOKAY, SO FAR! Wall-o´-text, I know.

This is, of course, my personal opinion and I just hope I got my point across the best way possible and without too much confusion @Mama Mia :lol:

Also, now patiently await all the wonderful german FJites to either lightly correct me or correct me very much. But please be gentle. And use Kitty Smileys! :wink-kitty:

PS:

Just another minor thing, which is super-odd to me as a Austrian, is the fact of how "inflationary" german politicans and journalists are using the word "Nazi". Here, running around and calling anyone a "Nazi" in public (or just using that kind of wording) is pretty much the worst thing one can do. Ever. I´m actually feeling a little weird right now while typing the four letters down, because I am used to writing in synonyms.

[2xx1xy1JD]

A "speak- german-at-home-law" is simple a idiotic Stammtischsager,

What does this mean? What's a Stammtischsager?

Did they really propose a law requiring people to speak German at home? How on earth would that work?

[Anny Nym]

What does this mean? What's a Stammtischsager?

Did they really propose a law requiring people to speak German at home? How on earth would that work?

"Stammtischsager" is a german jargon word for weird stuff people start saying after quite a few drinks when meeting up at the Inn or the bar with their buddies. That´s a Stammtisch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stammtisch, and "Sager" means "saying".

I just googled what the exact wording was, and apparently they said at a Party Meeting:

"...dazu angehalten werden, im öffentlichen Raum und in der Familie deutsch zu sprechen". wich translates to "... animated to speak german in public and private places." Quite a wacky wording... Apparently Seehofer, the politican who proposed this, did now react to the press and said, the original meaning was

"Wer dauerhaft hier leben will, soll motiviert werden, im täglichen Leben deutsch zu sprechen."/"Who wants to settle down in Germany, might be motivated to speak german in day-to-day life."

Go figure... *shrug*

(source)

So, no. There will not be a law like this. Like @Samurai_Sarah said, gaffe was shut down quickly. It´s more to be filed under "Stuff politicans say...". :lol:

[samurai_sarah]

What does this mean? What's a Stammtischsager?

Did they really propose a law requiring people to speak German at home? How on earth would that work?

Yep, they really did, and then had to back-pedal. The entire idea was met with wide-spread ridicule because it is absurd, and unenforceable. The party who suggested it came under additional fire, when leading politicians admitted that "of course, they spoke German with their families, when abroad". So, now they're just suggesting that the new laws motivate people.

Same rubbish, different day. The same (albeit non-political) thing happened in the late 1970s, when paediatricians advised migrant parents to only speak German with their children. A study had found that growing up bi-lingual only led to children knowing neither language properly, which would lead to academic failure. The study was seriously flawed. Its narrow focus, study group and their socio-economic circumstances were questionable enough, and it completely ignored the fact that the parents' German was often insufficient for anything beyond their jobs (mining, working on assembly lines etc), and rudimentary interactions.

Another flaw was the study focussed on the Turkish minority, the by far biggest minority. It's a flaw, because migrants from Italy or Greece were far more likely to marry native German-speakers. The mainly male Turkish migrant workers tended to marry in Turkey, and then move their wives/families to Germany, into Turkish-dominated neighbourhoods. These days, language training for migrants is widely available. Back then the women didn't get help, and in an exclusive neighbourhood, there was no need for it. In primary schools, where the majority of children was of Turkish descent, "organic" language acquisition didn't work.

The study ignored all that, rendering the paediatric advice useless. Same thing with this new initiative. The only thing it does, is blaming migrants for "not wanting to integrate", instead of addressing current issues surrounding migration and integration constructively.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Yep, they really did, and then had to back-pedal. The entire idea was met with wide-spread ridicule because it is absurd, and unenforceable. The party who suggested it came under additional fire, when leading politicians admitted that "of course, they spoke German with their families, when abroad". So, now they're just suggesting that the new laws motivate people.

Same rubbish, different day. The same (albeit non-political) thing happened in the late 1970s, when paediatricians advised migrant parents to only speak German with their children. A study had found that growing up bi-lingual only led to children knowing neither language properly, which would lead to academic failure. The study was seriously flawed. Its narrow focus, study group and their socio-economic circumstances were questionable enough, and it completely ignored the fact that the parents' German was often insufficient for anything beyond their jobs (mining, working on assembly lines etc), and rudimentary interactions.

Another flaw was the study focussed on the Turkish minority, the by far biggest minority. It's a flaw, because migrants from Italy or Greece were far more likely to marry native German-speakers. The mainly male Turkish migrant workers tended to marry in Turkey, and then move their wives/families to Germany, into Turkish-dominated neighbourhoods. These days, language training for migrants is widely available. Back then the women didn't get help, and in an exclusive neighbourhood, there was no need for it. In primary schools, where the majority of children was of Turkish descent, "organic" language acquisition didn't work.

The study ignored all that, rendering the paediatric advice useless. Same thing with this new initiative. The only thing it does, is blaming migrants for "not wanting to integrate", instead of addressing current issues surrounding migration and integration constructively.

Thanks for clarifying. I just ranted on another thread about this idea that immigrant parents should speak broken English (or German, in this case) to their children instead of their first language. You end up with kids learning their parents mistakes. In some cases, you actually end up with a variant form of the language persisting.

[Pretzel]

Anny Nym, what are you thinking about similar happenings in Austria? About the widespread open racism that is going on there? I heard a lot about it these past few weeks and I would like to hear your opinion on it.

[Burris]

What, precisely, is "Islamisation"?

So here I am, sitting up late (as is my custom), when I read the thread about the fear some Germans have of Islamisation.

In fact, news outlets around the world warn of this alleged threat. Myanmar, for example, is threatening to, um, 'intern‘ *SNERK!* a group of Muslims if they refuse to vacate the country.

Ah yes, and I remember those heady days when I, too, was told the Muslims were coming and meant ill.

And then it occurred to me, as strange thoughts often do during my many sleepless nights: I've heard the term 'Islamification' or a half dozen variations thereof, and it never came to me that I should ask what those terms even mean.

Do they mean Muslims of one kind or another have formed a small enclave after emigrating from a war zone?

Do they mean Muslims minding their own business until the area government needs scapegoats?

Does it mean people think Muslims want to convert Christians to Islam? To form a competing government? To impose Shari'a Law?

And what of the moderate Muslims? Are they Islamists too?

Fun Fact: My tablet spellchecker recognizes "Islamist" as a word.

People are afraid of Islamists, of Islamification...and I wonder just how many people have actually defined these terms at all.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Personally, when I use the term "Islamist", I'm referring to the fairly modern political movement basically described here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism

The influences that I watch for are Sayyid Qutb, Hasan al-Bana and Ruhollah Khomeini. Khomeini was Shi'ite and was the prime force behind the Iranian revolution, while Qutb and al-Bana were Sunni and spawned the Muslim Brotherhood. It's NOT the same as Islamic, which is just about religious identity. It's about a political movement to reject secular and western influence and bring in Sharia law, often with dire consequences for women and non-Muslims.

I'm don't know if the other posters were referring to Muslim immigration or something else.

[Anny Nym]

Anny Nym, what are you thinking about similar happenings in Austria? About the widespread open racism that is going on there? I heard a lot about it these past few weeks and I would like to hear your opinion on it.

Okay, I think I have some clarifying to do:

At first, I hope you aren´t under the impression I did want to pursue any kind of "german-bashing". That was definitely not my intention!

I´m, in fact, not a friend of all that "micro-nationalistic navel-gazing" that seems somewhat en vogue along some of my fellow countrypeople, who then just love to praise themselves as "modern western europeans" (funny enough...). All that "Piefke against Ösi - whose country is better" - bullshit is more than obsolete and ridiculous.

We, of course, have similar problems on the field of Integration and Migration politics. And we have our fair share of incompetent politicans too. We even have a PEGIDA page ... ( already almost 4000 likes. Well, at least nobody could say we Austrians aren´t catching up on trends).

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

My opinion on politics regarding muslims and similar political movements as PEGIDA in Austria ...

Well ... see, I grew up in a very political household, my father was/is a government worker, who started under the wonderful Bruno Kreisky (who will be his hero for all eternity, even if my dad is not a "red one" anymore) and was often abroad around some certain times.

Mainly to parts of the former Eastern Bloc and the Near East.

And because my parents raised my siblings and me by the credo "Man darf ein Kind auch geistig nicht in den Glaskasten setzen. Man muss ihnen schon sagen, was in der Welt so vor sich geht. Ein Kind ist ja kein Idiot, die Fähigkeit des kritischen Denkens hat es schon von Beginn an."

So we did somewhat grew up with being constantly told what did go on in that country or in this region, what are the causes and what is the role of my country (in Vienna, there is the UNO City). And also what is war (and my dad could tell details very "lively"). And often enough it did involve muslim people too.

I´m telling you that, because I always measure how the relationship with muslims (and politics regarding muslims in general) evolved in my country not only by theoretical facts, but by how I am used to see it through subjective experience.

And by that, I think we didn´t have "any beef" with muslims back in the days until the late 90s. The political opinion was a whole different, way more moderate one. Then came 9/11 and the terrorist hysteria.

I think we can say with confidence, as Austrians, we somewhat lost our old working ways and let us exploit by the the war-mongering EU-politics in Brussel. Austria shoud have stand it´s ground more and kept focused on it´s neutrality.

If we would have done that, we might have WAY LESS problems with the radicalization of young muslims nowadays*.

Now we see where this did lead: A atmosphere of constant latent "danger around the corner", not providing sufficient roots and plans for the future to large numbers of our youth and a loss of social solidarity!

And what for: to read about the latest EU weapon deal or CIA torture report in the morning news paper?

ad. PEGIDA in Austria

You know, in Austria, there is always needed a very fine balance. As long as this balance is stable, everything is okay. If it starts slipping, things could go downhill pretty fast. For example, take our unemployment rates: currently we have around 5,1% , that´s the second lowest in the EU.

Now you may say "So what...? You are only second, others have it way worse, what´s the problem?!" But in Austria, this is a very important indicator for "something is in the air".

If there will be any rise in the next ime in my country, it´s only due to the failure of the two established current reigning parties. There are two, ÖVP and SPÖ. The ÖVP drifted from "christian-social" to "neoliberal-antisocial".

The SPÖ is even worse, because it is historically so important, so this is really hurting to us Austrians: from a very strong socialist-democratic basis to "helpmeet to neoliberalism".

Seriously, whenever I see Faymann grinning, I think about the famous KPD slogan "Wer hat uns verraten - Sozialdemokraten!"

But this is the same in Germany with Gabriel, no? And what does always follow upon lack of identification and loss of trust with political systems, along with dramatically reduction of quality of live and ongoing impoverishment of the middle class, @Pretzel? ... Yes, exactly that, unfortunately.

In Austria and in Germany, France, Italy and UK. To name a few.

Pointing at Pegida (or similar movements), which are rising right out of the middle of society and calling it a "Aufmarsch" or any other pathetic throwing of words, like some journalists do, is contraproductive. If Merkel (for gaw´s sake!) talks about "installing baiting and hate", while she´s happily selling weapons and supporting fascists in other countries, PEGIDA will rise to triple sizes before it´s time to throw out the christmas trees.

The people didn´t turn "ebil reactionists" overnight - the people have lost trust in the political elites and the political elites have lost touch with the basis.

This is a problem, which is to be observed in the whole EU.

About the widespread open racism that is going on there?

Actually, if I skim through the international news, targeting "western countries" or "1st world countries" and recent happenings there, "widespread open racism" is not a term I would use carefree for my country.

"Playing solid middle field" is more like it. But that may highly depend on the social circle one is moving, or the individual experience. This is more my personal opinion now, other ones may differ very much from it.

We of course have our "Herzerl"/"special darlings" ( Gottfried "VAPO" Küssel, Christian "alles Höhlenmenschen!" Hörbart, anything Werner Königshofer and Michael Jeannée did write. Ever. :evil-eye:).

But saying "Yup, we are all racists here!", I can´t do that. That would heavily discredit all the people who just aren´t and that wouldn´t be fair, imho.

*Just a update on the old thread about the 2 viennese girls: Our police has most likely catched that guy who was responsible for sending various youths to ISIS, possible also the girls.

[samurai_sarah]

ETA: I was answering to Burris, before the merge.

Speaking from the German perspective, I'd bet that most people who throw the term around, and are frightened of it, haven't spent much time thinking about defining what they actually mean.

Here's a look at the statements that the German protesters against Islamisation have made:

- Pegida is not against foreigners, and not against Islam. Only against Islamisation.

- Special hours at public swimming pools for burqua-wearers are proof of Islamisation.

- We are not Nazis

- It's only a question of time until the Dresden "Christ-Stollen" (a kind of Christmas cake) gets a different name.

- We are not politically correct, and finally want our freedom of opinion/speech back

- We have zero tolerance for criminal migrants

- Poor, old-age pensioners in Germany are sitting in unheated flats and can't even afford a piece of "Stollen". All the while, the state provides asylum seekers with housing with all amenities.

- We have nothing against refugees. Refugees of war are welcome, economic refugees are not.

- Politicians don't listen to us, so we have to get active ourselves.

Source: http://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitges ... den-thesen

Sorry, German news link. All translations are mine.

So, Islamisation is... special opening hours for burqua wearers at public swimming pools? Or just generally accommodating needs, where they don't interfere with the rights and needs of others? In my personal experience, another issue seems to be the old "why are Muslim women/girls allowed to wear headscarves to school, but we can't put up a crucifix in class rooms?" Or "why are Muslims allowed to take breaks during work, to pray?" Or "they're in our country, so they have to assimilate to us!".

Based on all of that, I'd say that the populist idea of Islamisation, in Germany, is "they're trying to take over and force us to live like them, which means Sharia law, burquas and no more beer!". Plus a good smattering of xenophobia.

If I were to define it, I'd say it's "a non-secular political process towards an Islamic state and society", and I'd also say that I don't see it happening. Off the top of my head, I can think of four religiously affiliated parties in Germany, and none of them has anything to do with Islam. Also, I think one of them is defunct. I forget what they were called, but their ads always showed a guy in lotus-position jumping around. The other three are Christian*.

*) Fellow Germans, in case you are wondering: I've forgotten their name. It's a really small party, whose main platform was abolishing abortion. Also, please correct me if my impressions are wrong!

[Pretzel]

samurai_sarah: Partei bibeltreuer Christen? PBC? Is that the one you're looking for?

[samurai_sarah]

samurai_sarah: Partei bibeltreuer Christen? PBC? Is that the one you're looking for?

Thank you! That's the one I couldn't remember.

[Pretzel]

btw, the respective English name would be "Party of bible-abiding Christians", their supporters moderate to extreme fundies, rather evangelical than catholic.

[Aurora rising]

I am a german Muslima, married to a turkish man. And yes, I´m afraid, we both are. The problem with PEGIDA is the same problem we had with a book from a politian named Sarazin: A lot of people claim "Of course I´m not a Nazi and not against foreigners BUT....". This is a huge phenomen and it´s terrifiying, it really reminds a lot of people (me including) that the beginnings of Hitler were similar. It´s a shame that 10000 people are demonstrating against immigrants and islam, that women with headscarfes are getting attacked in Germany and Austria, it´s a shame that immigrants are only allowed within a certain radius around their "home base" (something like 20 km, I think).

And it´s time that we are organizing demonstrations against it, yes.

[samurai_sarah]

I am a german Muslima, married to a turkish man. And yes, I´m afraid, we both are. The problem with PEGIDA is the same problem we had with a book from a politian named Sarazin: A lot of people claim "Of course I´m not a Nazi and not against foreigners BUT....". This is a huge phenomen and it´s terrifiying, it really reminds a lot of people (me including) that the beginnings of Hitler were similar. It´s a shame that 10000 people are demonstrating against immigrants and islam, that women with headscarfes are getting attacked in Germany and Austria, it´s a shame that immigrants are only allowed within a certain radius around their "home base" (something like 20 km, I think).

And it´s time that we are organizing demonstrations against it, yes.

Can you explain that a bit more? Do you mean asylum seekers, whose claims haven't been processed yet?

The whole Pegida thing is all kinds of effed up, and only spreads more fear and distrust on all sides. You and your husband should not have to live in fear, especially not in a nation that claims to have learned so, so much since the Nazi era!

I was actually going to bump this thread, because of this news article: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschla ... 06332.html

Sorry, link is in German, so here's the gist:

There's been a study by the Berlin Institute of Empirical Integration and Migration Studies, in collaboration with the German Ministry for Integration. They spent a year and a half collecting data, and their findings are as follows.

- 27% of Germans think that Muslims are more aggressive than "us". 30% think that Muslims are less interested in education.

- One fifth of all participants think negatively of Muslims making demands from society. 60% think it's their right. 20% think it's insolent. And 17% think that demands from Muslims are a sign of ingratitude.

-42% want to prevent building mosques. 60% want to prohibit circumcision. 48% are against female teachers wearing headscarves. 38% think that whoever wears a headscarf can't be German.

- 70% thought that there are 20% of Muslims in the German population. It's actually roughly 5%.

Basically, @Aurora_rising, I share your fears that this is how it started before. And it's high time that the "silent majority" speaks up!

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

I don't know how to ask this politely, so I'll just come out with it: Would you mind telling a bit about your every-day experiences with this kind of thing? Do you wear a headscarf? Do people give you grief? Or treat you differently? Are you warier of your surroundings, if you go somewhere?

I'm asking, because I'm biracial German, and worried about what's going on. There are so many under-currents, and things we never talk about. I'd love your input on all of this.

ETA: Sorry, about the rather disjointed post.