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I wonder if they are jealous of Erin


Hisey

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When I thought we were fertile, I had no idea of the pain infertile couples go through. I'm sure young fundie girls have no idea what failed cycle after failed cycle feels like. They are probably just seeing a baby-less lifestyle and two adults without many responsibilities, except to each other. For perhaps the first time in their lives, they see an adult couple that is free to have just the kind of fun young people like to have.

Not gonna lie, if I was a fundie woman I'd envy them. I'm not really a kid person, to put it bluntly, so unless I was one of the youngest children I'd feel stuck between a rock and a hard place: stay at home, stifled and lonely and raising my parents' children, or marry and pop out a brood of my own. To me, in that situation, Erin would seem to have the perfect life; she's found a man who absolutely adores her, enabling her to move out of her parents' house, but she's not (yet) been saddled with children.

I think if I were in this kind of a situation, I'd be so trapped in my own misery that I wouldn't feel empathy for Erin, especially as I get the impression fundies are none too skilled at empathy (probably because they don't read).

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Because of the pressure to 'birth babies for God', I'm sure Erin and Chad are having a tough time and having experienced quite a few miscarriages myself I can attest to the feelings of loss and grief that accompany them. I do, however, think that other young couples probably do envy them for being able to have this time to themselves as a young married couple. The emotions would be mixed and someone like Derrick has no real reference point for what he is missing, but Jill knows all too well that all hell is going to break loose in a few years and while she is excited now - when she is standing in front of the washing machine at 3 in the morning trying to change loads for the 7 kids she has - I bet she'll wish to the high blue sky that there was a year or so that they were able to have all to themselves.

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its sad to think that Erin may be having trouble carrying a baby to term. She seems like she wants to be a mother. On the other hand, she has a freedom that most girs her age in that circle do not have. She is not tied to the house because she has babies to attend to.

She is lucky because she has a husband who sees her for her worth as a human instead of a breeding machine.

I have a gene mutation that will make it hard to carry a baby to term. It's the MTHFR c677t mutation. My body has trouble metabolizing folate/folic acid. I take a concentrated ( perscription) form of the metabolized form for nutritional reasons. I want to have a baby at some point in my life but I do not know if I will be able to carry an embro to term. I am trying to accept that but it's hard.

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I know the miscarriage was hard. It is hard even when pregnancies aren't planned! But I think they're very lucky right now because the are getting to just know each other, and I think they'll have a genuinely good marriage for it.

Agree!

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I've been thinking about this some more.

I wonder if some fundie girls who do get pregnant easily may be feeling kind of smug and superior to Erin.

In the fundie world, it is always the woman's fault (everything is). So while we don't know whether it is Chad or Erin causing their infertility, I imagine the "blame" falls squarely on Erin in the world she lives in. (IIRC, its possible for men to have low-quality sperm that can cause miscarriages).

So here is this outstandingly beautiful fundy girl who probably drew lots of attention from boys before she got married. I remember Anna Duggar looking pissed once when Josh greeted Erin too enthusiastically. Erin is 10x more attractive than Anna, who I have always felt is quite plain.

On top of her beauty, Erin probably also got lots of attention (and got out of lots of chores) because of her musical talent.

I wonder if women like Anna are harboring a smug pleasure over Erin and Chad's misfortune. Kind of like, "see God likes me best after all!" Or, "maybe she made her music into an idol and now she is being punished."

These fundy women have so few things to be proud of. They have never gotten an A, they never made a great soccer goal, they never got a big tip for good service at their waitressing job. I can see why the ability to get pregnant quickly might become a measuring tool for worth.

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I imagine that quite a few girls may have harbored some jealousy towards Erin before this and are now feeling slightly superior in her misfortune, though they would never admit it to themselves. After all, Erin was beautiful, talented, got opportunities most didn't (college), and got a handsome and doting husband. For girls who didn't have those things or didn't get those chances, I am sure that they were secretly struggling with a jealous heart.

I'm sure now some of them feel slightly smug that they get something she doesn't, but I'm also sure they don't ever show that to her face. After all, that would show a weakness in their character/hearts, so I'm sure they take great pains to appear humble, sympathetic, and supportive. Being genuine is not a character trait they value, after all.

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To be honest, I'm not sure fundies really know how to deal with people who have fertility issues sometimes. They SAY that the woman stays at home whether she's an unmarried daughter, a childless mother, or has a dozen kids. They SAY that they are being trained to be a "keeper of the home" or whatever, regardless of "how many kids God gives them" (and that also includes the option of 0 kids). But how many "famous" fundies have, say, 2 kids and 8 miscarriages? The ones that achieve fundie "royalty" all have huge families. So they say they are fine with everything, but people who have huge families are very obviously more respected.

I don't believe for a second that they are totally fine when God "blesses" them with fertility issues. They might put on a happy face, but really, how is everything supposed to be fine when you have expected your entire identity to be formed around being a mother? I hope Erin will be able to have as many children as she wants, but what if she can't? How do you not have your life plans instantly shattered when all of your (literal) eggs were in one basket?

I mean, a lot of women want to be moms someday, but most also have tons of other things going on in our lives giving us purpose and meaning. Not so much with fundies. I am glad Erin is a musician, because she would probably be bored out of her mind right now if she was sitting at home with absolutely nothing to do. She is very talented and I'm sure is a great piano teacher, so I hope she finds a lot of meaning and joy in doing things like that while she's child-free (and when she has kids, too!).

IIRC, her miscarriage was a blighted ovum, wasn't it? (Sac with no baby?) That's not typically a type of miscarriage as likely to repeat itself vs. some other issues, so hopefully they are "out of the woods." I do know that people are often told to wait several months before trying again after blighted ovum miscarriages, so I wonder if they could (!!!) use birth control?!

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Erin and Chad are probably the only fundies I can think of that I would say might, just might, actually be using birth control. It's possible they might have actually taken the doctors seriously if they told them to wait for the sake of her health, and maybe they would find a barrier method acceptable with the understanding that it was to be only a short term thing.

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Erin and Chad are probably the only fundies I can think of that I would say might, just might, actually be using birth control. It's possible they might have actually taken the doctors seriously if they told them to wait for the sake of her health, and maybe they would find a barrier method acceptable with the understanding that it was to be only a short term thing.

I can see a short term solution being acceptable for a lot of fundies, actually, after an issue like that. Miscarriages are common, and this situation is common.

It's the doctor that tells a fundie breeder no more kids after the fiftieth that has no idea what is talking about, and God will decide. I can see much less compliance with permanent solutions, when the risk can be very real for everyone involved.

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I don't think they are jealous right now, they are probably very glad they can fulfill their "role" by getting pregnant fast, and right now Erin is probably not very happy with the current situation.

But I can imagine that a few years down the road, when Erin will (hopefully for her) have a few kids, she might really value the time she got with her husband alone. And in a few years, the other young wives, might wish they would have gotten some quiet time for themselves and their husband before jumping on the crazy and grueling baby-bandwagon which doesn't stop until their mid-forties, unless they get to their senses and start using some kind of bc.

This is my thought, exactly. Right now, Erin's peer group is looking at pregnancy/live births as God's favor, but later on they will be jealous of the time Erin and Chad had together before children arrived. I think it's probably been good for the couple, since I sense that this was a marriage based on physical attraction rather than compatibility.

I think Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar waiting to have kids helped their marriage, too, although they probably look at that time of "disobedience" as the reason God won't let them get to #20, or something equally as silly.

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I imagine that quite a few girls may have harbored some jealousy towards Erin before this and are now feeling slightly superior in her misfortune, though they would never admit it to themselves. After all, Erin was beautiful, talented, got opportunities most didn't (college), and got a handsome and doting husband. For girls who didn't have those things or didn't get those chances, I am sure that they were secretly struggling with a jealous heart.

I'm sure now some of them feel slightly smug that they get something she doesn't, but I'm also sure they don't ever show that to her face. After all, that would show a weakness in their character/hearts, so I'm sure they take great pains to appear humble, sympathetic, and supportive. Being genuine is not a character trait they value, after all.

Honestly, I'm okay with that. These girls/women live in a culture that considers beauty as "good" (well all do, but some of us can cultivate other talents.) Erin took (takes) great pains to emphasize and capitalize on that beauty. If other fundies can see that beauty =/= "God's favor", I don't blame them for taking notice.

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I hope they are able to see this unexpected time together for what it is - a gift. I'm very sorry she miscarried, I hope she is working through her grieving and she and Chad are able to use this time to forge a special marital relationship that frankly cannot happen once a baby comes.

It is so very ironic that Michelle Duggar gives advice to mothers with newborns and the bulk of it is to stay focused on the marriage. Well that could happen and the marriage could be strengthened if childbearing were delayed a year or two. OR FOUR.

Two years is just about the right amount of time to see if something is going to work. That would be so much better for these young couples to wait a year, better two, and then start having children.

If anyone feels secretly jealous of Erin's baby-free time with her husband, they are beating that feeling down very quick.

I agree that if a couple can wait for a few years, it's good to do that. My husband and I married a year after we met and I was pregnant (accidentally) 2 weeks after our wedding so we had a baby on our first anniversary. Then because I wanted more than one, we had our second son two years later.

I do wish we had had more time to just be together and enjoy being newlyweds and being married. We are re=connecting now in our fifties, going on vacation every year (we never went on a honeymoon), and I'm lucky that we are both still healthy and able to do that financially. But yeah, I think it's good to wait for a bit, especially these kids who really don't have a chance for deep and emotional sharing during courtship because they always have an audience. So I think getting to know each other is even more important for them!

Plus things can happen having kids. It's rare, but I almost died giving birth to my first son and my husband had to wait until I came out of surgery to see if I would survive (I had lost so much blood that they weren't sure I'd survive the surgery). So, my advice is to enjoy each other for a few years and travel a bit and go out and have fun. Once the kids are here you never really feel worry-free even if you go away. In the back of your mind you are always worrying about the kids and if they are okay.

I think Erin and her husband will be much happier later on, especially if she ends up pregnant in a year or two. A romantic getaway to a cozy cabin to celebrate their anniversary sounds lovely! (I had a baby with colick for mine!).

It bugs me that JB and M sort of push push push about having kids as soon as possible, and as many as possible instead of advising them to spend some time enjoying each other. It's like they only marry so they can start adding to the Holy Army! For all her relationship advice, Michelle doesn't seem to see that maybe a zillion babies isn't the best path to keep romance alive, especially when they are all young and you don't have older ones to do the work (and she should know how hard it is since she had her own breakdown around that time). So you think she'd be more honest with her kids about how tough it can be and not rush them into it. :angry-banghead:

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I've been thinking about this some more.

I wonder if some fundie girls who do get pregnant easily may be feeling kind of smug and superior to Erin...I wonder if women like Anna are harboring a smug pleasure over Erin and Chad's misfortune. Kind of like, "see God likes me best after all!" Or, "maybe she made her music into an idol and now she is being punished."

These fundy women have so few things to be proud of. They have never gotten an A, they never made a great soccer goal, they never got a big tip for good service at their waitressing job. I can see why the ability to get pregnant quickly might become a measuring tool for worth.

I wonder this about Anna as well - that she gets all her self esteem from her ability to keep pushing out kids. Trouble is that it gets harder and harder, in reality, to take care of all those kids by yourself and with Anna's belief system and her being the perfect Fundy wife being the one thing she has ...what will happen if it starts to be too much. Because it will. No one can keep having kids every year or so without any real help and continue to be joyful and perfect and have dinner on the table when Josh gets home, and continue to have sex whenever he wants it, etc.

Even Michelle has admitted that she had a problem with anger when the oldest kids were little (read: she had no one to pass the kids off to), and had a bit of a breakdown. Yet now she comes off like it's so easy and she's so perfect and to be a Duggar and live up to their rep/brand, Anna (and all their daughters) have to get pregnant as much as possible, be perfect mothers who always smile, never yell and never complain. No pressure! I wonder how one of them might feel if they find it too hard and start struggling? Would they feel able to confide in each other about such feelings which go against the whole Gothard rules about behaviour and how women/mothers should behave? Would they feel like complete failures? Heck, I had feelings like that when my kids were little sometimes and it's hard not to feel like a failure. We can't measure up to that perfect image that is portrayed that is not reality. I guess, at least, the girls have all experienced younger siblings so they know what is entailed, but it's still different looking after a gaggle of kids on your own without help!

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At least Erin has a husband who loves her and will always love and accept her even if she isn't able to conceive, and her parents are more loving and value their children as people. Can you imagine how horrible it would be for a Duggar girl who was infertile, with the obsession that Michelle and Jimbob have over making babies? It seems all they ever talk about when it comes to marriage is sex, because babies. Have babies, lots of babies, but only if youre married or you are going to Hell. God blesses people with babies, having 20 means he loves you the most, like he loves us more than anyone else.

Its a hard life for a fundie woman who cant have babies :( Even if they don't really want hundreds of kids, its still hard to not feel like a failure who God hates when that is the message you are given by everyone you know.

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I don't think they're jealous. Right now they're enjoying the excitement of expecting their first. Even remembering life with their siblings it's still exciting having your first child. They're probably not thinking about being stuck in a car with a screaming baby but instead of holding a little baby boy in their arms or sticking gigantic ass bows on their newborn daughters heads.

If in a few years when they're overwhelmed with kids they see Chad and Erin with none then there may be some bit of jealousy but it will quickly go away because at that point it will probably appear as though Chad and Erin might not have kids at all.

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If in a few years when they're overwhelmed with kids they see Chad and Erin with none then there may be some bit of jealousy but it will quickly go away because at that point it will probably appear as though Chad and Erin might not have kids at all.

That's a little dramatic for someone who had one miscarriage, like everyone else. Miscarriages are common for everyone, including fundies.

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That's a little dramatic for someone who had one miscarriage, like everyone else. Miscarriages are common for everyone, including fundies.

I agree if we're talking about them right now, but in fairness the quoted comment says that's if in a few years they still don't have any children.

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DarkAnts, I have the exact same mutation and have carried six babies to term in addition to three miscarriages.

Honestly, we were Fundie-lite especially when we got married, but that first miscarriage we suffered as newlyweds before we had children planted the seeds that eventually cause us both to leave the Christian Faith entirely. Looking back now, I appreciate the extra time we had without children. At the time it was a bitter pill to swallow when all I wanted in the world was to be a mother.

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I agree if we're talking about them right now, but in fairness the quoted comment says that's if in a few years they still don't have any children.

Sorry I wasn't suggesting that Chad and Erin couldn't have children. I should have included something along those lines in my comment. However I don't think a few years from now those expecting couples who are now overwhelmed will remember Chad and Erin a few years ago before they had kids and become jealous of their past. I feel that the question of jealousy only works in my opinion if Chad and Erin don't have children at that particular moment. I mean if five years from now Alyssa has a four year old, a three year old and a one year old she's not going to be jealous that her sister's kids are three years old, two years old and a baby. Nor will she probably remember the little bit of extra time Chad and Erin had together before having kids. They're both going to be in the same boat of feeling overwhelmed and in fact the fact that Alyssa's oldest is slightly older will actually make her life easier at that particular moment.

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its sad to think that Erin may be having trouble carrying a baby to term. She seems like she wants to be a mother. On the other hand, she has a freedom that most girs her age in that circle do not have. She is not tied to the house because she has babies to attend to.

She is lucky because she has a husband who sees her for her worth as a human instead of a breeding machine.

I have a gene mutation that will make it hard to carry a baby to term. It's the MTHFR c677t mutation. My body has trouble metabolizing folate/folic acid. I take a concentrated ( perscription) form of the metabolized form for nutritional reasons. I want to have a baby at some point in my life but I do not know if I will be able to carry an embro to term. I am trying to accept that but it's hard.

Darkants, MTHRFKR is pretty common. Odds are you'll be fine.

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On top of her beauty, Erin probably also got lots of attention (and got out of lots of chores) because of her musical talent.

Quite frankly, I think that is only partially true. I guess Erin spent most of her free-time practicing piano and then going off to Crown but I never for a second believe that it really got her out of chores. People like to have that image of her as the snotty, fundie princess who thinks she's too good to sit next to someone with green hair, because of that one stupid comment.

I could bet her siblings are either just as snotty or all of them are not at all that snotty. Erin looks like an angel although she's not prettier than her sisters. I think that's due to her pursuing a hobby she genuinely loves. Plus, I don't think the Bates girls have been dragged around the country (and world for that matter) with tens of little siblings in tow and have not been as enslaved as the J'slaves. In an interview, however, Michael(la) stated that Erin comes right after her as the go-to sister in case the parents aren't available and that they share in equal part of responsibility at home. People may think Erin's a lazy-ass spoiled princess because she can't cook, but merely the ability to cook does not a great housewife make, either.

I can't believe I'm defending Erin this much but I feel like people need to cut her some slack.

She's probably done more chores than the average teenager ever should have to do so give her some peace.

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Quite frankly, I think that is only partially true. I guess Erin spent most of her free-time practicing piano and then going off to Crown but I never for a second believe that it really got her out of chores. People like to have that image of her as the snotty, fundie princess who thinks she's too good to sit next to someone with green hair, because of that one stupid comment.

I could bet her siblings are either just as snotty or all of them are not at all that snotty. Erin looks like an angel although she's not prettier than her sisters. I think that's due to her pursuing a hobby she genuinely loves. Plus, I don't think the Bates girls have been dragged around the country (and world for that matter) with tens of little siblings in tow and have not been as enslaved as the J'slaves. In an interview, however, Michael(la) stated that Erin comes right after her as the go-to sister in case the parents aren't available and that they share in equal part of responsibility at home. People may think Erin's a lazy-ass spoiled princess because she can't cook, but merely the ability to cook does not a great housewife make, either.

I can't believe I'm defending Erin this much but I feel like people need to cut her some slack.

She's probably done more chores than the average teenager ever should have to do so give her some peace.

I suspect that what's seen as getting her out of chores was her piano playing / practice and going to Crown versus other daughters that were still spending more time at home.

While I have no idea what she had to do chorewise is in any way equal way equal to what other sisters have done, one thing I think we can count on: she would have had to help around the house and raise her siblings just like the J'slaves would have to.

How much in comparison doesn't really matter: in a home with 19 kids, all the daughters would be expected to pitch in when they were old enough.

Quite frankly, getting her own home with just Chad to look after would be a vacation compared to living in her parent's home. Even if she can't cook.

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Even in the secular world, marriage and babies is highly promoted the ideal life And when you are infertile or dont have kids for any other reason this doesnt help much becasue you fail to live up to society's expectations and ideals of fulfillment. I recall reading a book called "Memo to Myself When I Have a Teenage Kid". It was funny, but now I look back at it from another perspective. 'When' should be "If". In church some 30ish year ago I read a book called "From Pig Tails to Wedding Bells". It gives advice on everything from fashion to dating and planning a wedding. However, nothing is mentioned about the possibility of staying single. A few years ago a couple on Dr. Phil had a guest couple with fertility issues. The woman seemed obsessed with having a baby. Instead of trying to help her with the obsession, it was a plug for a fertility specialist. Dr.Phil only encouraged them to have kids no matter the cost or no matter how the partner feels like having kids is the most important thing.

I feel bad for these kids. They are taught marriage and babies is the only life to live. I wish I can tell them opting to be single/married and child-free is totally acceptable. Sometimes, a situation like Erin's can be taken as a sign to focus on a different direction. Oprah had a still born baby and decided to be child-free. While that had to be heart breaking for her, it obviously made her stop and reanalyze what she wanted from life. Fundies woudl never see it that way.

I wonder if they regard childless couples as being stuck in some kind pre-adulthood stage, since they haven't borne the responsibilities of "true adults" (in their minds).

This sentiment is often expressed in the secular world toward especially those child-free and single on purpose. They are seen as Peter pans who never want to grow up.

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  • 2 months later...

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:
Shhhhh. Don't say that too loud.

I recently said I think Chad and Erin lucked out because they got some baby-free time for themselves and their relationship. Some apparently thought this automatically meant I was undermining the tragedy and pain of their early miscarriage, which I was not. It's certainly sad. Still, since things went another way...I'm glad Erin&Chad can have the experience of building a relationship without the strain a pregnancy and a baby put on a marriage

That attitude is really strong here on FJ. Too bad people can't just be content in the moment. Silver lining and all that.

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