Breaking courtship rules

[isarhenne]

What would be the consequences for an unmarried couple if they break the courtship rules.

For example Jill and Derick front hugging before their engagement

or Jessa and Ben holding hands before their engagement and then front hugging before getting married.

What are the consequences for them?

I saw a docu from 2008 in which the wilson family (in colorado springs) hosts their purity ball. the eldest daughter said that she didn't even hold hands with her husband before they got married!!!

do you think that if older siblings "break" the rules it will be easier for the younger ones or do you think they will have it harder?

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Probably just a lecture. Both Jill and Jessa briefly broke the rules and nothing happened. What could happen? They're adults...kind of.

[Sundaymorning]

Well, the Duggars are kind of a special case. They are in the spotlight, so they can't show all of their crazy and their true colours too much.

But what would happen in other fundie families? My guess is that it really depends. We have to keep in mind that most fundies are huge hypocrites. So if the parents would like the significant other of their kid for whatever reason (for example that he/she comes from a fundie royality family) they probably wouldn't say much and pretend that it didn't happen. If they were already searching for a reason to break off the coursthip or even engagement, well then even a harmless incident could serve as a justification to do so.

Also, family and other cult members could use the fact that rules got broken as blackmail material or/and hold it over their heads forever to make them feel bad about themselves and inferior (just like Jim Boob Duggar still likes to talk about how J'Chelle had other boyfriends before him, like, 35 years ago).

[ILoveJellybeans]

Prayer closet for two weeks and for the rest of their courtship they have to have a plumbing line wielding chaperone present to hit them if they so much as make prolonged eye contact with eachother.

Most likely just called in for a private chat with their parents, with the intention of shaming them and making them feel like shit.

[Handmaiden of Dog]

Which leads me to wonder what kind of punishment is being doled out to the kidults? Do you really think they are spanking 20 year old men?

[lexiloumarie]

I would imagine some of the families call the "kidults" up in front of their home churches to publicly repent. They just seem that cruel to embarrass them like that.

[DGayle]

The strictest courter I ever knew had an engagement called off by her and the fiance's parents because they "held hands," as in they grabbed hands when she was falling. They were my first exposure to courting. The Duggars taught me that some people do get to hold hands, at least.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

The strictest courter I ever knew had an engagement called off by her and the fiance's parents because they "held hands," as in they grabbed hands when she was falling. They were my first exposure to courting. The Duggars taught me that some people do get to hold hands, at least.

Was the couple devastated? Did she go on to marry someone else? Tell me more!

[LaLele]

I suppose it depends what kind of church they belong to. I know there was a local church/cult around me that had a special "repentance bench" in the front of the church. Those who had broken church rules had to sit segregated on this bench and publicly shamed as they asked the church and God for forgiveness. They weren't released until the pastor felt they were ready to be back among the flock. Sometimes people had to sit up there for lots of services.

(Full disclosure this was more a weird cult then the typical patriarchal fundie sect. In fact the leader/pastor was a woman.) I can just see public shaming as part of the punishment for breaking courtship rules.

[Toothfairy]

Depends. Duggars won't do shit. Other fundies might break it up or their parents might tell them they're going to hell

[Odd1Out]

The strictest courter I ever knew had an engagement called off by her and the fiance's parents because they "held hands," as in they grabbed hands when she was falling. They were my first exposure to courting. The Duggars taught me that some people do get to hold hands, at least.

So how do the patents that called it off explain that. If they claim that the engagement was all brought about by God, if he brought the couple together, if it's part of his plan...what right do the parents have to interfere?

[Coco]

---

So how do the patents that called it off explain that. If they claim that the engagement was all brought about by God, if he brought the couple together, if it's part of his plan...what right do the parents have to interfere?

Brought about by God, yes -- but in their world God works through the parents. Obeying parents becomes as important as obeying God -- because parents are wise and all-knowing. :shifty:

[Coco]

The public shaming for breaking courtship rules is a real struggle.

Warning, bitter rant ahead!

In my old youth group one conceited girl, who had to have everything perfect, sweetly clawed and connived her way to the top and ended up with a pastor's son. It was epic. They did everything by the book. They fasted, they prayed, they drove off after their boring wedding in a car that exceeded all the church standards for modest unpretentious cars (our church had rules about car flashiness): they were even too holy to let anyone decorate it with 'just married' stuff. The bride even waved the royal wave at her photographer. :lol:

Anyway, couples like that lord it over other couples who don't have the same 'stick-up-their-asses' attitudes to keep things as pure. It's like the way Anna brags almost every time she and Josh talk about their wedding that they didn't kiss before the altar. Okay, we get it. These things become a show-off competition for holiness in some youth groups. It can go beyond parental enforcement. It becomes a 'we are perfect and you're not' race. And it can follow couples who slip up for the rest of their lives. Rumor mills in conservative circles are nasty business. This is the way fundie royalty earns and keeps their status. Some even do this without really understanding how nasty they're acting. It's because of holiness. If something is considered holy or godly, it's okay to be stuck up about it.

So when couples slip up -- it's a hot topic, and it can ruin so much more than just a pristine reputation: because fundies are a closed group. Often, jobs and housing and opportunities are tied into a couple's status in the church. All of this works together to tighten the control. Fundies want their kids to be respected, and it starts during the mom and dad's courtship.

i'm just glad i got out of that whole world before i was asked by a fundie guy to court. It hurt at the time, but i'm so glad now that i escaped the bondage to have been in that kind of a social situation, where the most innocent thing can be a major lifelong disadvantage.

[uber frau]

If you're courting a Maxwell and you break the rules you'll be slut shamed from here until eternity by your almost father in law.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I suppose it depends what kind of church they belong to. I know there was a local church/cult around me that had a special "repentance bench" in the front of the church. Those who had broken church rules had to sit segregated on this bench and publicly shamed as they asked the church and God for forgiveness. They weren't released until the pastor felt they were ready to be back among the flock. Sometimes people had to sit up there for lots of services.

(Full disclosure this was more a weird cult then the typical patriarchal fundie sect. In fact the leader/pastor was a woman.) I can just see public shaming as part of the punishment for breaking courtship rules.

So basically it is time out for adults? How degrading.

[polecat]

ime and observations, private shaming, public shaming, church discipline, losing your church membership, broken courtship/relationship -- different consequences based on the "severity" of the violation (hand-holding, hugging, kissing, being alone without a chaperone, sex, whatever). And once you've lost your "reputation," you become a pariah among young single men of your own age and something of a siren for older married men.

[Jana814]

If you're courting a Maxwell and you break the rules you'll be slut shamed from here until eternity by your almost father in law.

Got that right!!

[Emme]

The strictest courter I ever knew had an engagement called off by her and the fiance's parents because they "held hands," as in they grabbed hands when she was falling. They were my first exposure to courting. The Duggars taught me that some people do get to hold hands, at least.

It makes me sad that adult children do what their parents say in cases like this. Because that is batshit.

[polecat]

It makes me sad that adult children do what their parents say in cases like this. Because that is batshit.

It's not batshit if you've been brainwashed. It's simply doing what you have always been taught and believed to be true (honor thy father and mother that your days may be long on the earth -- when the alternative to obeying your parents is death?). **

What's batshit is that parents brainwash their kids so that they are still under their parents' control as adults.

**ETA: Not to mention that the parents often control the purse strings and the housing of the adult kids, the family may be isolated from friends or extended family who could provide a safe space for those who want out, and education may be limited to the degree that obtaining meaningful employment outside the fundy world is impossible. As a former fundy kid, I really prickle when people insinuate that fundy kids are "batshit" or whatever else for doing what they need to do to survive in a world that actually IS batshit.

[Rescinded and Mended]

I don't really have a lot of firsthand experience with those who break courtship rules, but I would imagine only the most spiteful and vindictive of parents would force the courtship to end because OMG TOUCHING.

I read one story on No Longer Quivering about a girl who kissed her fiance a few days before the wedding. Her parents were unhappy about it, but the girl and her fiance had simply made up their minds that they wanted their first kiss to be in private. The father in particular was pissed, but the wedding was in three days, and even he knew by that point there was nothing he could really do about it, short of banishing the finace, sending all the arriving guests home, returning gifts, etc.

He simply didn't hate his daughter enough to do any of that. As much as I dislike saying that, I honestly believe that you would have to despise your children in order to destroy their courtships and publicly shame them in their own circles over touching or kissing before the wedding.

[Emme]

It's not batshit if you've been brainwashed. It's simply doing what you have always been taught and believed to be true (honor thy father and mother that your days may be long on the earth -- when the alternative to obeying your parents is death?). **

What's batshit is that parents brainwash their kids so that they are still under their parents' control as adults.

**ETA: Not to mention that the parents often control the purse strings and the housing of the adult kids, the family may be isolated from friends or extended family who could provide a safe space for those who want out, and education may be limited to the degree that obtaining meaningful employment outside the fundy world is impossible. As a former fundy kid, I really prickle when people insinuate that fundy kids are "batshit" or whatever else for doing what they need to do to survive in a world that actually IS batshit.

Sorry, wasn't calling the kids batshit, I was calling the fact that parents thought that someone helping catch someone who was falling was "sinful" and "rule-breaky" enough to call off an engagement (that's the 'that' that I was referring to, not the kids). That wasn't clear in my post. I think we were referring to the same thing, the parents behavior, as batshit. I do understand that kids in that situation have no alternative perspective, nor any kind of independence.

[calimojo]

I would think that breaking courtship rules might hasten a wedding, much like in the day if a girl got pregnant she and the baby daddy would be practically coerced into marriage. The wedding would usually be very small, no showers, no big celebration, just the immediate families.

If a courtship rule was broken, it seems like both parties would be damaged goods, (the girl more than the boy of course) and so they might as well just get married right away. A shameful wedding with very little recognition, compared to those who were pure until marriage.

[Jana814]

I would think that breaking courtship rules might hasten a wedding, much like in the day if a girl got pregnant she and the baby daddy would be practically coerced into marriage. The wedding would usually be very small, no showers, no big celebration, just the immediate families.

If a courtship rule was broken, it seems like both parties would be damaged goods, (the girl more than the boy of course) and so they might as well just get married right away. A shameful wedding with very little recognition, compared to those who were pure until marriage.

Agree!

[Coco]

Agree!

Add in that everyone would know about it, so basically kids in that situation would have to leave the group to be able to live without the stigma. And it's difficult to leave because the kids are uneducated about functioning in the real world. It's really no wonder parents lock down courtships, with all that's riding on the couple obeying the rules. :roll: Suffocating way to live.

[smittykins]

I would think that breaking courtship rules might hasten a wedding, much like in the day if a girl got pregnant she and the baby daddy would be practically coerced into marriage. The wedding would usually be very small, no showers, no big celebration, just the immediate families.

Hence the saying "First babies come whenever they want; the rest take nine months."