No Nutcracker For You

[mirele]

I'm wondering whether the protesting family were Jehovah's Witnesses? Those guys are *militant* about not celebrating Christmas or other holidays (or birthdays). I remember back in the 1990s, when my younger nephew was in second grade, he was in the class with all the JW kids. And yes, that was deliberate. There were four classes of second graders at the school and the teachers basically conspired together to place all the JW kids in one class to minimize the inevitable disruption. My sister wasn't happy about it, but her brother-in-law was chairman of the school board and explained to her that this was the easiest way to deal with a fractious problem.

ETA: I'd really be curious to find out if they were JWs. Starnes was rather cagey in his article. It'd be hard for him to defend his ranting if it was a Christian sect which doesn't believe in celebrating Christmas.

[Rebelwife]

I'm trying to imagine, and I still don't see the issue (I'm atheist). The culture of this community is to see Fiddler on the Roof. I respect the culture of the community/civilization, and try to be a part of it while protecting my belief. People who would refuse to see Fiddler on the Roof in this situation are : bigot/narrow-minded/disrespectful/unwillingness to integrate in the community.

What I teach my students is that no religion has the exclusivity of its tradition. That from the time the tradition are really into the country's culture, this tradition (Christmas or Ramadan or whatever), are no longer seen as religious, but as cultural. Then, some people might add belief with it. And that's why we sing Gregorian chant even if we do not share the same religion (or non- religion). Because the catholic church have no property on gregorian chant, like christian have no property on christmas three.

Perhaps it is a contextual difference, because I know France is a much more secular state than the US tends to be. But we are not talking about adults who are choosing to learn more about the culture within which they live. Instead, We are talking about children who are being offered a holiday treat. If they were being taken to the ballet in the context of a larger unit study of dance or the arts or classical music, that would be different. But at least in the US, the nutcracker is a traditionalChristmas event. On paper you could divorce it from the holiday, in practice however that is almost impossible to do

[Marianne]

Perhaps it is a contextual difference, because I know France is a much more secular state than the US tends to be. But we are not talking about adults who are choosing to learn more about the culture within which they live. Instead, We are talking about children who are being offered a holiday treat. If they were being taken to the ballet in the context of a larger unit study of dance or the arts or classical music, that would be different. But at least in the US, the nutcracker is a traditionalChristmas event. On paper you could divorce it from the holiday, in practice however that is almost impossible to do

So, we shoulf supress christmas hollidays for children ? I mean, you can't divorce christmas hollidays from christmas.

It means also that you don't want children to discover a part of the culture of their country ?

[browncoatslytherin]

So, we shoulf supress christmas hollidays for children ? I mean, you can't divorce christmas hollidays from christmas.

It means also that you don't want children to discover a part of the culture of their country ?

also, like it or not, christmas is a federal holiday here in the states. to me, that means there must be a large enough part of it that is secular and separate from the christian part of the holiday, despite its roots.

[Rebelwife]

I'm not about to go down the rabbit hole of a debate over whether public schools should overtly celebrate Christmas on school time (which include field trips). That's been done here plenty of times.

I was simply trying to address the statements made by a number of people that the Nutcracker is completely secular and the setting of a Christmas party is incidental to the whole thing. I agree that when Tchaikovsky wrote the ballet that was true, and it is still likely true in a large part of the world, but in the United States it has become inextricably linked with Christmas itself. Companies all over the country put the ballet on every Christmas (our small city has 3 different companies doing it this year!) and it is a huge part of Christmas tradition for many people. Even if they themselves don't go, people connect it with the holiday.

In my opinion, to say differently is naive at best and outright denial at worst.

And none of that, by the way, has anything to do with my opinion of what children should be exposed to culturally. I think children should be exposed to as much as possible, and parents who try to shield their little darlings from every thing that doesn't exactly match their world view (coughMAXWELLScough) are doing their children a huge disservice. We just have to be careful not to put forward the idea that the dominant culture is the "best" one.

[Marianne]

I'm not about to go down the rabbit hole of a debate over whether public schools should overtly celebrate Christmas on school time (which include field trips). That's been done here plenty of times.

I was simply trying to address the statements made by a number of people that the Nutcracker is completely secular and the setting of a Christmas party is incidental to the whole thing. I agree that when Tchaikovsky wrote the ballet that was true, and it is still likely true in a large part of the world, but in the United States it has become inextricably linked with Christmas itself. Companies all over the country put the ballet on every Christmas (our small city has 3 different companies doing it this year!) and it is a huge part of Christmas tradition for many people. Even if they themselves don't go, people connect it with the holiday.

In my opinion, to say differently is naive at best and outright denial at worst.

And none of that, by the way, has anything to do with my opinion of what children should be exposed to culturally. I think children should be exposed to as much as possible, and parents who try to shield their little darlings from every thing that doesn't exactly match their world view (coughMAXWELLScough) are doing their children a huge disservice. We just have to be careful not to put forward the idea that the dominant culture is the "best" one.

Nobody have said here that the dominant culture is the best one.

You know, here, it makes me think, a little after the french revolution, around 1793 they try to erase all religion from the culture. And when I said all... the names of the month, the names of the day of the weeks, and they forbid/try to change the meaning of all "hollidays", like Christmas, the 21th of June, the 21th of december, Easter, etc... It did not work. trying to built a society where you erase all of its religious roots don't work.

(but if you're bored or depressed, just go to read the names here, it's funny http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Rep ... l_Calendar :mrgreen: )

[artdecades]

Artdecades, I don't think it is just me. I look around the world around me and in December it's all about Christmas. It has been this way all of my life, all 50 years of it. It's on TV, it's everywhere. I think it is fair to say that Christmas is a very important holiday celebration in America.

Gosh, you know... how you reasonably protect the feelings of every single person at all times. I personally don't appreciate atheists who complain their lil fee fees are hurt by the nativity scene that SmallTown USA put up every year for the last 100 years but now has been sued because a small minority doesn't like it and so the scene won't go up this year.

What do you truly want to see happen in our society? Would you like to do away with Christmas celebrations completely? How likely is that to happen when Black Friday is well, Black Friday?

First of all, I think its extremely dismissive to refer to cultural sensitivity as "protect[ing] the feelings" of those who are different. This isn't about feelings, this is about social institutions that say one way is right and everything else is wrong. Its interesting that you are choosing to pick on atheists, who pretty much just get mocked, but ignore the religious minorities in this country who have to fear violence from the dominant culture.

Second of all, where I am calling for a dismantling of Christmas in our society? Where am I saying that all productions of the Nutcracker must be altered or canceled? I am simply saying that taking a Christmas tradition and promoting at a public school through a field trip is inappropriate. This is the exact problem I have with this whole War on Christmas BS. You have people saying that they don't want their children exposed to religious festivities at school (either because they don't want their child to be made to feel less than or because they dont' want indoctrination) and suddenly its being equated to "OMG, LETS DESTROY CHRISTIANITY". Again, back to my first point, when Jews and Muslims and other religious minorities ask for equal (or hell, proportional) representation, they are not asking for Christmas to be ignored or removed from society as a whole. Its not all or nothing. I am sure people would be far more accepting of the Nutcracker if it was shown (as one may see in an art museum) alongside other cultures as opposed to the only one option.

[Rebelwife]

Nobody have said here that the dominant culture is the best one.

You know, here, it makes me think, a little after the french revolution, around 1793 they try to erase all religion from the culture. And when I said all... the names of the month, the names of the day of the weeks, and they forbid/try to change the meaning of all "hollidays", like Christmas, the 21th of June, the 21th of december, Easter, etc... It did not work. trying to built a society where you erase all of its religious roots don't work.

(but if you're bored or depressed, just go to read the names here, it's funny http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Rep ... l_Calendar :mrgreen: )

I'm going to walk away from this now, because I don't know if it's a language issue or if I'm just not being clear, but I feel like you are not understaning my point. Rather that try to keep clarifying, I'll just let it go. I'm not mad or flouncing or anything, just out of ways to try and explain my point.

[Marianne]

I think that there's a big difference, and two big questions at the end :

Is something (holiday, words etc ...), which has religious origins can become a cultural thing? In short, can we separate the origins of Christmas (pagan & christian) from the current celebration ? I think yes, and yes. It seems you think no, and no. From this, we can't agree : you think Christmas is christian, and in this case, it make sense to ban every christmas-related words, spectacle, hollidays from school. I think Christmas is cultural and christmas-related things should not be banned from school.

I also believe that denying to a child such a beautiful things like the Nutcracker in the name of religion (or belief), is dangerous.