No Nutcracker For You

[BrownieMomma]

Right. I forgot that the Western World = Christian default. Being set at a party that just happens to be celebrating a Christian holy day doesn't mean anything because thats what Westerners do. Same with the tree. It comes alive because of magic that may or may not have to do with the magic of Christmas which is totally not about Jesus or anything.

And I feel you are misrepresenting the situation by comparing it to an art museum. There are many different kinds of museums that house different kinds of objects. If you are talking about encyclopedic art museums, they often due have biases towards Western, christian artwork and there are many books and articles in museology that discuss this. However, tours are often tailored to particular subjects (IE, old masters or impressionism or "gems of the museum"). There are multiple, varied works that people are exposed to, as opposed to a single presentation in a theater.

So its the choice of a Muslim or Jewish family to not give their children Christmas when it is not a holiday celebrated by their cultures? And we need to just accept that Christian society makes those who do not celebrate christmas feel lesser than and Othered? In what way do non-Christians attempt to make the rest of society (the poor oppressed Christians) conform?

Its the other way around. This thread is evidence of that. You are saying that there is nothing Christian about a play that takes place around a Christmas celebration. Christmas is Christian. And trying to say otherwise is expecting that non-christians conform and agree to the idea of a "secular" christmas at the loss of our own culture and values.

Artdecades, I don't think it is just me. I look around the world around me and in December it's all about Christmas. It has been this way all of my life, all 50 years of it. It's on TV, it's everywhere. I think it is fair to say that Christmas is a very important holiday celebration in America.

Gosh, you know... how you reasonably protect the feelings of every single person at all times. I personally don't appreciate atheists who complain their lil fee fees are hurt by the nativity scene that SmallTown USA put up every year for the last 100 years but now has been sued because a small minority doesn't like it and so the scene won't go up this year.

What do you truly want to see happen in our society? Would you like to do away with Christmas celebrations completely? How likely is that to happen when Black Friday is well, Black Friday?

[Anny Nym]

anny nym (tapatalk isn't letting me quote posts. boo, tapatalk, boo) - it depends on the year and what is happening. i don't always decorate with a tree but i try to get some sort of evergreen to decorate with. food and family, love all around. meaningful gifts for some. i'm not usually in a place with a fireplace or pit for a yule log, but i improvise with a wood candle holder. oh yes, LOTS of candles. and besides praying to my patron god and goddess, i'll pray to one appropriate to the season as well - isis for me, but any god or goddess associated with rebirth/new life is suitable.

Very interesting!

Ah, wood candle holders! The one which is a log with drilled holes for candles in it?

Mr. Nym´s grandmother had danish ancestry and she brought also one or two traditions over here, like putting little funny poems into presents or a Jul/Yule log - it always had to be oak and was thrown on Christmas Eve in the fireplace at the family dinner. The "master of the house" (right translation?) needed to sprinkle some wine on it. And she had a special candle holder which was light up all through the night in one window and she kept the candle in a special place. Did you hear of that, is that relatable to traditional Yule or am I on a total wrong path here and that´s a entirely different thing? :lol:

[browncoatslytherin]

Very interesting!

Ah, wood candle holders! The one which is a log with drilled holes for candles in it?

Mr. Nym´s grandmother had danish ancestry and she brought also one or two traditions over here, like putting little funny poems into presents or a Jul/Yule log - it always had to be oak and was thrown on Christmas Eve in the fireplace at the family dinner. The "master of the house" (right translation?) needed to sprinkle some wine on it. And she had a special candle holder which was light up all through the night in one window and she kept the candle in a special place. Did you hear of that, is that relatable to traditional Yule or am I on a total wrong path here and that´s a entirely different thing? :lol:

tapatalk is now letting me quote. yay!

yes, exactly, those kinds of holders. i like to make them myself if i can. i like being crafty. :D

with the yule log itself, there's likely variations to it, but it's very similar to a general ritual. the wood types vary (probably according to region) but usually it shouldn't be bought by the person, it should be gifted by someone else (i can't do this, though, as i have no pagan friends close). but it's sprinkled with wine or cider or some other celebratory liquid and lit with a piece of the previous years yule log.

yule itself celebrates the solstice, the longest night. so the celebration is centered around light and rebirth. so candles and fire in general play a large role in celebrations.

[Anny Nym]

tapatalk is now letting me quote. yay!

yes, exactly, those kinds of holders. i like to make them myself if i can. i like being crafty. :D

with the yule log itself, there's likely variations to it, but it's very similar to a general ritual. the wood types vary (probably according to region) but usually it shouldn't be bought by the person, it should be gifted by someone else (i can't do this, though, as i have no pagan friends close). but it's sprinkled with wine or cider or some other celebratory liquid and lit with a piece of the previous years yule log.

yule itself celebrates the solstice, the longest night. so the celebration is centered around light and rebirth. so candles and fire in general play a large role in celebrations.

Horray tapatalk! :mrgreen:

Oh sweet, we have tiny wooden pieces as candle holders for the Advent wraith, but I bought them :shhh:

Ah, I´m sure the oak log wasn´t bought, but from the fam´s forrest - which brings me to: If you need a log, I can mail you a whole oak if you need some, I have to check with the post office though :wink-kitty: You do have a spacious mailbox? :lol:

If it was lit with a piece of the previous log, I can´t tell, I may ask about that, if I remember, this christmas when we are with the in-laws.

Light and symbolic rebirth have such a big meaning in nordic countries, don´t they? Do you celebrate with your family Yule and Christmas, or only Yule?

[browncoatslytherin]

Horray tapatalk! :mrgreen:

Oh sweet, we have tiny wooden pieces as candle holders for the Advent wraith, but I bought them :shhh:

Ah, I´m sure the oak log wasn´t bought, but from the fam´s forrest - which brings me to: If you need a log, I can mail you a whole oak if you need some, I have to check with the post office though :wink-kitty: You do have a spacious mailbox? :lol:

If it was lit with a piece of the previous log, I can´t tell, I may ask about that, if I remember, this christmas when we are with the in-laws.

Light and symbolic rebirth have such a big meaning in nordic countries, don´t they? Do you celebrate with your family Yule and Christmas, or only Yule?

with my family, i've had to do the christmas thing, before i came out as pagan. nowadays, i'd join them for a meal and exchange gifts, but that's all. no bible reading, no service. but it almost makes yule more special...it's like this little thing i do all by myself.

i'll have to let you know about my mailbox :P i'm moving come december 1st. it's an apartment complex, though, so i doubt it would be a very large box. i think the office may be able to hold packages, though. i'll have to ask.

[Anny Nym]

with my family, i've had to do the christmas thing, before i came out as pagan. nowadays, i'd join them for a meal and exchange gifts, but that's all. no bible reading, no service. but it almost makes yule more special...it's like this little thing i do all by myself.

It´s always nice to start a very own tradition to "pass on the flame". I hope your family was quite okay with the decision?

i'll have to let you know about my mailbox :P i'm moving come december 1st. it's an apartment complex, though, so i doubt it would be a very large box. i think the office may be able to hold packages, though. i'll have to ask.

Haha, do that :mrgreen:. Oh, come 1st - next monday! Happy house warming then! :dance:

[StellaMarie]

Please don´t be offended, but I have to ask: How do you handle that with classics in general then? Shakespeare, Dickens, almost every russian author, classical music... to only make a few examples. They all refer in some way to christianity and christian celebrations within its content.

This goes back to artdecades's well-made point: the "classics"/canonical literature *is* exclusionary. It presents a point of view as the norm and "others" women, people of color, non-Christians, etc.

Something being a "norm" can also be exclusionary.

It's interesting to me that so many people view the Nutcracker as being secular.

[browncoatslytherin]

It´s always nice to start a very own tradition to "pass on the flame". I hope your family was quite okay with the decision?

i waited for the right time, when i wasn't financially dependent on my dad. i came out with everything. liberal. feminist. pansexual. pagan. it was better that way. i just threw it all at them and they were just like "okay".

and thank you! i cannot WAIT to get out of this house. my brother and his boyfriend are driving me CRAZY.

[Anny Nym]

This goes back to artdecades's well-made point: the "classics"/canonical literature *is* exclusionary. It presents a point of view as the norm and "others" women, people of color, non-Christians, etc.

Something being a "norm" can also be exclusionary.

It's interesting to me that so many people view the Nutcracker as being secular.

Art, literature and music always presents one point of view - namely the one of the artist, the writer or the composer.

They want to bring across a point, may the point be to create a ballet children should find not boring or a sociocritical analysis about the London slum inhabitants around the 1850s... But that´s not making them "classics".

Thousands of stories, music pieces or stage projects getting kicked off every year, since centuries. But only a few are able to catch the human mind on this certain essential level to make it timeless and a "classic".

To say now this works are exclusionary, because they don´t cater to our recent image of society and norms, is not the right approach. Of course they have to be seen in context of the time they originated from.

To me although, it is very interesting (and a tiny bit odd, but I maybe have to pull the "it´s-a-different-culture"-card here) that people could ever view a piece like "The Nutcracker" as religious.

[Anny Nym]

i waited for the right time, when i wasn't financially dependent on my dad. i came out with everything. liberal. feminist. pansexual. pagan. it was better that way. i just threw it all at them and they were just like "okay".

and thank you! i cannot WAIT to get out of this house. my brother and his boyfriend are driving me CRAZY.

Ah, good tactics :D !

I think I did read your "Oh brother-my brother!" story over at the Are you there FreeJinger-section, a itty bit understandable you are looking forward to your own four walls ^^.

[misslady]

Isn't this what parenting is for? To teach your child how to cope with things in life that seem unfair?

There's not a single Christian theme in Nutcracker, unless I have somehow just missed it.

And to ignore the largest holiday as if it doesn't exist - that's pushing an agenda too.

Children who grow up in families that do not celebrate Christmas, for whatever reason, have a lot to deal with at the end of each year. That's the choice the parents make, and the parents should be the one teaching their own children how to deal with it, not trying to force the rest of society to conform to them.

edited to fix quote marks

Oh yes, that Jewish agenda, that's what I'm pushing here. :roll: While you are in fact correct that we chose Judaism for our daughter (because I am not Jewish, and that's a whole 'nother story), my husband didn't choose to be born and raised Jewish and deal with all the frustrations that come with being a minority. My kid is not that old but she already knows about Santa from freaking Curious George's Very Monkey Christmas. It's all these little things that add up to a lot of frustration.

Please don´t be offended, but I have to ask: How do you handle that with classics in general then? Shakespeare, Dickens, almost every russian author, classical music... to only make a few examples. They all refer in some way to christianity and christian celebrations within its content.

I've taught high school English, including AmLit, and when it comes up in a diverse class I make sure to mention that I am in no way trying to tell students what they should or should not believe, but that they need to understand the cultural context of the time of the piece of work. Most of the time they've already had it in history class. Hell, I've taught "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" - but we look at the way the piece is put together as much as anything. Metaphor and rhetorical construction and all that. And we work through the allusions together and the kids that have the knowledge share it. I've never had anyone complain; they just take notes and move on. It's possible to look at those things from a factual perspective.

I feel that there is a difference, though, between academic analysis of texts and being taken as a class to see something that is clearly a holiday treat. If the idea is to show the kids a story ballet, most companies have Sleeping Beauty or Swan Lake or Coppelia in their rep and drag them out fairly frequently, and the trip could be scheduled some other time than at Christmas. Or if it must be at holiday time, there are other family-friendly shows - we are going to a panto on Friday, which, while a traditional British Christmas thing, is not about Christmas in any way. Locally we also have Disney on Ice, Mary Poppins, a local ballet school doing Hansel and Gretel ... you get the idea.

bloody hell, can't get the second quote to embed properly, sorry.

[Anny Nym]

Oh yes, that Jewish agenda, that's what I'm pushing here. :roll: While you are in fact correct that we chose Judaism for our daughter (because I am not Jewish, and that's a whole 'nother story), my husband didn't choose to be born and raised Jewish and deal with all the frustrations that come with being a minority. My kid is not that old but she already knows about Santa from freaking Curious George's Very Monkey Christmas. It's all these little things that add up to a lot of frustration.

I've taught high school English, including AmLit, and when it comes up in a diverse class I make sure to mention that I am in no way trying to tell students what they should or should not believe, but that they need to understand the cultural context of the time of the piece of work. Most of the time they've already had it in history class. Hell, I've taught "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" - but we look at the way the piece is put together as much as anything. Metaphor and rhetorical construction and all that. And we work through the allusions together and the kids that have the knowledge share it. I've never had anyone complain; they just take notes and move on. It's possible to look at those things from a factual perspective.

I feel that there is a difference, though, between academic analysis of texts and being taken as a class to see something that is clearly a holiday treat. If the idea is to show the kids a story ballet, most companies have Sleeping Beauty or Swan Lake or Coppelia in their rep and drag them out fairly frequently, and the trip could be scheduled some other time than at Christmas. Or if it must be at holiday time, there are other family-friendly shows - we are going to a panto on Friday, which, while a traditional British Christmas thing, is not about Christmas in any way. Locally we also have Disney on Ice, Mary Poppins, a local ballet school doing Hansel and Gretel ... you get the idea.

bloody hell, can't get the second quote to embed properly, sorry.

Uhm, I don´t think BrownieMomma, or anyone else for the record, would accuse you of "pushing a Jewish agenda" :? :? :?

I think we all need to now come.the.fudge.down here a bit. It´s a child fairy tale about a toy and a mouse, for any-or-none-entitiy´s sake!

Okay, cool! You have a very rational approach on teaching your pupils about american literature. So why not widen the ratio of this approach to the general handling of classics? Including the Nutcracker? Holiday or not?

Don´t you think someone would find a reason to complain about Hänsel und Gretel or Swan Lake too? Where we draw the line? And how?

[misslady]

Uhm, I don´t think BrownieMomma, or anyone else for the record, would accuse you of "pushing a Jewish agenda" :? :? :?

I think we all need to now come.the.fudge.down here a bit. It´s a child fairy tale about a toy and a rat, for any-or-none-entitiy´s sake!

Okay, cool! You have a very rational approach on teaching your pupils about american literature. So why not widen the ratio of this approach to the general handling of classics? Including the Nutcracker? Holiday or not?

Don´t you think someone would find a reason to complain about Hänsel und Gretel or Swan Lake too? Where we draw the line? And how?

I am certain that some people would complain about H&G or Swan Lake, but it would probably be about the magic and/or witchcraft. And then I would be happily snarking along. All I'm saying is, I see the point of parents who are complaining, as was said before, about a public school attending a Christmas program, assuming that the complaints are about it being a promotion of Christmas as the norm and not some other thing, which I have yet to be able to find information on since all the articles Google brings up seem to be reprints of the first one. And maybe the schools are doing further education and not just letting the kids off the bus and telling them to have fun, in which case fantastic! Arts are great and necessary! But as a person parenting a Jewish child, I'd have to see evidence of that before I could make a decision on this, if it were my school.

[SquirrelySquirrel]

Artdecades, I don't think it is just me. I look around the world around me and in December it's all about Christmas. It has been this way all of my life, all 50 years of it. It's on TV, it's everywhere. I think it is fair to say that Christmas is a very important holiday celebration in America.

Gosh, you know... how you reasonably protect the feelings of every single person at all times. I personally don't appreciate atheists who complain their lil fee fees are hurt by the nativity scene that SmallTown USA put up every year for the last 100 years but now has been sued because a small minority doesn't like it and so the scene won't go up this year.

What do you truly want to see happen in our society? Would you like to do away with Christmas celebrations completely? How likely is that to happen when Black Friday is well, Black Friday?

First off, I'm an atheist who has always celebrated Christmas in a secular, cultural way. And I have taken my daughter myself to see The Nutcracker performed by a children's ballet because it's really beautiful.

Now, to the bolded. I would be one of those people and you so very obviously have no clue what it feels like to be me. It has fuck-all to do with my feelings and everything to do with how Christians steamroll society and say the hell with the United States Constitution. It has to do with this country's habit of celebrating Christianity on gov't property and then crying and throwing fits when others want to be equally represented, or prefer that no religion be represented, as is again, guaranteed by the Constitution.

Do you have any idea how I'd be treated if I were (hopefully wrongfully) accused of a crime and had to be put on trial? Do you have any idea how terrifying I find the prospect of a "jury of my peers?" I don't have "peers" here the moment I refuse to swear to tell the truth on a Bible (still done here).

Do you have any idea what it's like to have to worry about something as simple and stupid as having a Darwin fish on my vehicle? People with Christian fish sure as hell don't have to worry. They probably get a free pass from certain cops, where as I likely never will.

These are just a few small examples. And if you can't see how this correlates to a nativity scene in front of City Hall, then I don't know what to tell you. It has nothing to do with getting rid of Christmas because some don't celebrate and everything to do with treating others equally, and keeping religion out of government entities. You have no fucking clue because you don't want to stop and think for a moment how someone else may feel. It's called empathy.

[DGayle]

Ummm, am I on Free Jinger or Fox News right now?

Parents didn't want their public school children taken to a play with religious undertones. They have a right to complain. There is nothing about it being evil.

Once again, the completely idiotic and harmful idea of "secular christmas" is being pushed. Christmas/Christians are not the default.

There are no religious undertones to it. It's a party on Christmas Eve, girl gets doll, saves him from a rat, goes to watch a hodge podge of performances. There's no god-talk or anything. It's less religious than the Grinch. I'm an atheist, and NEVER saw this as a religious performance.

[julie paradox]

No. It's not a religious story. Not at all.

...which is why those of us for whom a christmas tree is just part of December consider it entirely secular. Like cards, and crackers, and figgy pudding.

It is, however, SPECIFICALLY a story about a culture in which a Christmas Tree is Part of December.

[StellaMarie]

It's a Christmas story. Christmas is a Christian holiday.

Maybe perspectives matter here. In other words, perhaps someone who was raised Christian -- or at least not raised in a non-Christian religion -- views the ballet as secular. I say this as someone who was raised Christian and is now agnostic. I love decorating for Christmas and Christmas traditions, and for me, it's totally separate from the "Reason for the Season."

But for a child who is being raised Jewish, or Muslim -- and whose family doesn't celebrate "secular Christmas" -- it could feel exclusionary.

Again, I think it can be hard for people who view Christmas as the "norm" to see how others view the holiday.

I'm honestly not sure how I would feel as a parent of a child in that school, and we don't really hear much about the actual circumstances -- but I'm not sure that that PTA wasn't well-intentioned and trying to be inclusive.

[Marianne]

Poor children, raised with family so narrow-minded that even Tchaïkovsky is forbidden :cry:

I taught in a public music school and in a private (but no religious) music school, and we do christmas concert, including religious song. It's a part of musical culture. If parents don't want children to learn about it, then, they can leave the school. Anyway, we never had complain (and a lot of children don't celebrate christmas).

Also, denying to your children to learn about art (whatever form of art) because of religion (no matter the religion), is bigotry and stupidity.

[DGayle]

Also, denying to your children to learn about art (whatever form of art) because of religion (no matter the religion), is bigotry and stupidity.

Almost all art somehow, no matter how tangentially, involves religion, or something controversial. It's meant to make you think about things.

Are schools going to start making sure kids aren't exposed to anything involving Da Vinci because he was born out of wedlock, which is against many religions' rules? Are schools going to wipe Michelangelo out of art classes because of how devout he was and how much of his work is based in religion? Is Picasso going to be banned because some of this work, like Les Demoiselles d'Avignon, was controversial? It's really sad when art, when it's not being used to proselytize or anything.

When I was in high school, the Mormon Tabernacle Choir toured nearish to my secular high school. We didn't have many Mormon kids in my school. Lots of Christians (who don't see Mormons as Christian), atheists, practicing-Wiccans (from Wiccan families, not kids who are into a trend), pagans, Jewish kids, everyone else except Mormon. My high school thought it would be cool to offer that as a field trip, and sent home permission forms, and a hundred or so of us went on a long bus ride to go see the choir, enjoyed it, came home, and that was that. No one fussed that it was explicitly Mormon. It was just an art form, and exposure to art helps people be well-rounded.

So I really can't get behind saying no to the Nutcracker because the family in it is known to be Christian because of the tree (even though not everyone who gets trees are Christian or even pretending to be). If Nutcracker is a no because of a tree, when will stage performances of Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, going to be banned? (My elementary school went to a performance of that.) Will Scarlet Letter be banned soon since it involves a preacher? What about the the Salem Witch Trials stage show? Fiddler on the Roof? Some religions ban dancing, so will everything with dancing be anti-Baptist/etc, and be banned?

[crazyforkate]

Interestingly, in Russia there has been some controversy about the Nutcracker too - not because of the ballet, but because of Tchaikovsky himself. The evidence suggests that he was most likely gay, and, well, you know how that would go over in Russia. I'm honestly surprised that some American fundies haven't launched onto that little tidbit.

[Coco]

Misslady, this is off-topic, but i'm interested in what your class discusses about "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God". That's one of my parents' favorite sermons, they listen to it about once a month at least. I've always found it to be incredibly harsh.

[VVV]

Interestingly, in Russia there has been some controversy about the Nutcracker too - not because of the ballet, but because of Tchaikovsky himself. The evidence suggests that he was most likely gay, and, well, you know how that would go over in Russia. I'm honestly surprised that some American fundies haven't launched onto that little tidbit.

The fact that Tchaikovsky was gay is very, very, very, very old news. It's discussed in undergraduate music history classes. His death, attributed to cholera, is thought by some to have been suicide because he was about to be exposed, which in Russia at that time would have gone very badly. If fundies haven't latched onto it, it's most likely because their narrow worldview doesn't encompass much if any classical music in the first place.

[Rebelwife]

Almost all art somehow, no matter how tangentially, involves religion, or something controversial. It's meant to make you think about things.

Are schools going to start making sure kids aren't exposed to anything involving Da Vinci because he was born out of wedlock, which is against many religions' rules? Are schools going to wipe Michelangelo out of art classes because of how devout he was and how much of his work is based in religion? Is Picasso going to be banned because some of this work, like Les Demoiselles d'Avignon, was controversial? It's really sad when art, when it's not being used to proselytize or anything.

When I was in high school, the Mormon Tabernacle Choir toured nearish to my secular high school. We didn't have many Mormon kids in my school. Lots of Christians (who don't see Mormons as Christian), atheists, practicing-Wiccans (from Wiccan families, not kids who are into a trend), pagans, Jewish kids, everyone else except Mormon. My high school thought it would be cool to offer that as a field trip, and sent home permission forms, and a hundred or so of us went on a long bus ride to go see the choir, enjoyed it, came home, and that was that. No one fussed that it was explicitly Mormon. It was just an art form, and exposure to art helps people be well-rounded.

So I really can't get behind saying no to the Nutcracker because the family in it is known to be Christian because of the tree (even though not everyone who gets trees are Christian or even pretending to be). If Nutcracker is a no because of a tree, when will stage performances of Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, going to be banned? (My elementary school went to a performance of that.) Will Scarlet Letter be banned soon since it involves a preacher? What about the the Salem Witch Trials stage show? Fiddler on the Roof? Some religions ban dancing, so will everything with dancing be anti-Baptist/etc, and be banned?

I think it can be a little disingenuous is say that the Nutcracker has absolutely nothing to do with Christmas; that it just happens to be the setting of the play. The fact is, in the US, this ballet is a huge CHRISTMAS tradition in many communities. It is inextricably tied up with other Christmas traditions in our society, and therefore IS related in many ways to a major Christian holiday. There wouldn't be nearly the issue of a public school going to see it in May, at a ballet company that put it on once every 5 years or so.

Take your Fiddler on the Roof example... most people wouldn't think twice about the Jewish setting one way or another. But suppose you lived in a very Jewish community where every year this play was performed as part of a major Jewish religious festival. Many people felt this major religious festival wouldn't be complete without a family trip to see "Fiddler on the Roof." If you were not Jewish and living in that community, can you not see how being taken to see it (or opting out of doing something fun with all your schoolmates and instead staying behind to do busywork) would be an issue? Even if you saw the play another time because it was an important part of the civilization's canon?

Edited to add: I say all this as someone who has a daughter that is involved with a rigorous choral program at her public school. Much of what they sing is religious music, because classic, multi-part chorale music is often sacred in nature. Some of it isn't, though, and they sing that too. If they ever started singing Christian music because it was Christian - and not because it was good, technically difficult music - I would be the first one in the principal's office raising hell. I can see the distinction between appreciating religious art and humanities for their inherent qualities and place in cultural history and using them as part of a celebration of a particular faith.

[Marianne]

Take your Fiddler on the Roof example... most people wouldn't think twice about the Jewish setting one way or another. But suppose you lived in a very Jewish community where every year this play was performed as part of a major Jewish religious festival. Many people felt this major religious festival wouldn't be complete without a family trip to see "Fiddler on the Roof." If you were not Jewish and living in that community, can you not see how being taken to see it (or opting out of doing something fun with all your schoolmates and instead staying behind to do busywork) would be an issue? Even if you saw the play another time because it was an important part of the civilization's canon?

I'm trying to imagine, and I still don't see the issue (I'm atheist). The culture of this community is to see Fiddler on the Roof. I respect the culture of the community/civilization, and try to be a part of it while protecting my belief. People who would refuse to see Fiddler on the Roof in this situation are : bigot/narrow-minded/disrespectful/unwillingness to integrate in the community.

What I teach my students is that no religion has the exclusivity of its tradition. That from the time the tradition are really into the country's culture, this tradition (Christmas or Ramadan or whatever), are no longer seen as religious, but as cultural. Then, some people might add belief with it. And that's why we sing Gregorian chant even if we do not share the same religion (or non- religion). Because the catholic church have no property on gregorian chant, like christian have no property on christmas three.

[misslady]

We read it next to The Crucible, as some context for the behavior of the characters. Although Sinners is a later text than when the Crucible is set, it gives a pretty good feeling for the ideas of sin and the stakes the characters are facing if found out. So it's one part a historical lesson about Puritanism and one part analysis of rhetorical devices in a persuasive text, like allusion and metaphor (e.g. all that stuff about how God's hands are keeping you out of the flames, the bow of God's wrath, comparing men to spiders, etc.) and how those compound to create an effective speech. So classroom discussion runs along the lines of "find examples of these things, and then explain how the author is using them to convince his audience of his main point." Which is really what I do with any text we study, although the focus areas may be different depending on purpose and audience.

Interestingly I usually have a few kids who go to fire-and-brimstone type churches and they nod right along, once they get past the language and into the text dissection.