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God stepping in....


Rebelwife

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The reason a comment like this bothers some of us so much is because it implies that somehow the person who escaped by divine intervention is also claiming that they are more special than those who god choose not to spare. It's a rather "I'm specialer than they are" statement. They most likely don't mean it that way, but that is basically what they are saying. In a tragic situation, it also highly stinks of immodesty.

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The reason a comment like this bothers some of us so much is because it implies that somehow the person who escaped by divine intervention is also claiming that they are more special than those who god choose not to spare. It's a rather "I'm specialer than they are" statement. They most likely don't mean it that way, but that is basically what they are saying. In a tragic situation, it also highly stinks of immodesty.

I don't see it that way at all...and I damn sure would not go running my mouth about it. God has a way of slapping the arrogant down (See Doug Phillips is a tool).

I just don't believe in coincidences anymore. There are too many examples in my life to make me believe in just random luck. Example: Getting contacted for a job I never applied for, had never heard of the company. Yeah, I put my resume out on Indeed but...had not gotten a single hit until this one (which was a home run). One phone interview, one brunch interview and I walked out with a verbal offer for a fantastic job at more money than I had ever made. They even offered my husband a job. The head honcho at this company is also a type 1 diabetic and totally understands what it's like to be a diabetic and has no problems offering my husband accommodation for his medical problems.

Example 2: Took my last 150 bucks and signed up for a class at the local community college (had no idea how I was going to come up with the 90 bucks for the book). 4 weeks into the semester, some men came from the local large employer and offered the class a free education and a guaranteed job. Ended up working for that company for 10 years.

Example 3: applied to rent a house. Got turned down. Ended up finding a better house at the same rent, closer to work, lower deposit. Found out about it through a friend of a friend. Looked at it on Thursday, moved in the following Monday.

Now, we're going through some stuff with my husband and his legal situation. The "official types" are being assholes. However, through it, we are BOTH learning certain lessons. It totally sucks, but there are lessons being learned daily. AND...there are things happening in the background that will hopefully get the situation changed in our favor.

So...this is why I do not believe in random chance. At all. Even when bad things happen, there's a bigger picture we can't see.

Just my perspective as a Christian.

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I don't see it that way at all...and I damn sure would not go running my mouth about it. God has a way of slapping the arrogant down (See Doug Phillips is a tool).

I just don't believe in coincidences anymore. There are too many examples in my life to make me believe in just random luck. Example: Getting contacted for a job I never applied for, had never heard of the company. Yeah, I put my resume out on Indeed but...had not gotten a single hit until this one (which was a home run). One phone interview, one brunch interview and I walked out with a verbal offer for a fantastic job at more money than I had ever made. They even offered my husband a job. The head honcho at this company is also a type 1 diabetic and totally understands what it's like to be a diabetic and has no problems offering my husband accommodation for his medical problems.

Example 2: Took my last 150 bucks and signed up for a class at the local community college (had no idea how I was going to come up with the 90 bucks for the book). 4 weeks into the semester, some men came from the local large employer and offered the class a free education and a guaranteed job. Ended up working for that company for 10 years.

Example 3: applied to rent a house. Got turned down. Ended up finding a better house at the same rent, closer to work, lower deposit. Found out about it through a friend of a friend. Looked at it on Thursday, moved in the following Monday.

Now, we're going through some stuff with my husband and his legal situation. The "official types" are being assholes. However, through it, we are BOTH learning certain lessons. It totally sucks, but there are lessons being learned daily. AND...there are things happening in the background that will hopefully get the situation changed in our favor.

So...this is why I do not believe in random chance. At all. Even when bad things happen, there's a bigger picture we can't see.

Just my perspective as a Christian.

WTF? So "God" allowed the holocaust to happen because he had some "bigger picture" in mind? "God" allows millions of children to be raped and beaten and starved because he has his reasons? He sounds like the guy from the Saw movies.

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But this is what drives me crazy. That God intervened so you could rent a better house but didn't intervene when someone was being tortured or raped or killed. I was raised a Christian and I still don't get it.

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I don't see it that way at all...and I damn sure would not go running my mouth about it. God has a way of slapping the arrogant down (See Doug Phillips is a tool).

I just don't believe in coincidences anymore. There are too many examples in my life to make me believe in just random luck. Example: Getting contacted for a job I never applied for, had never heard of the company. Yeah, I put my resume out on Indeed but...had not gotten a single hit until this one (which was a home run). One phone interview, one brunch interview and I walked out with a verbal offer for a fantastic job at more money than I had ever made. They even offered my husband a job. The head honcho at this company is also a type 1 diabetic and totally understands what it's like to be a diabetic and has no problems offering my husband accommodation for his medical problems.

Example 2: Took my last 150 bucks and signed up for a class at the local community college (had no idea how I was going to come up with the 90 bucks for the book). 4 weeks into the semester, some men came from the local large employer and offered the class a free education and a guaranteed job. Ended up working for that company for 10 years.

Example 3: applied to rent a house. Got turned down. Ended up finding a better house at the same rent, closer to work, lower deposit. Found out about it through a friend of a friend. Looked at it on Thursday, moved in the following Monday.

Now, we're going through some stuff with my husband and his legal situation. The "official types" are being assholes. However, through it, we are BOTH learning certain lessons. It totally sucks, but there are lessons being learned daily. AND...there are things happening in the background that will hopefully get the situation changed in our favor.

So...this is why I do not believe in random chance. At all. Even when bad things happen, there's a bigger picture we can't see.

Just my perspective as a Christian.

So it was divine intervention today when I went to buy two half gallons of milk @$4.19 each, and I had a $20 in my purse? Or last week when I was five minutes late leaving to get my kids from school, and got two red lights and two green lights and ended up picking them up exactly five minutes late? Or last month when a guy rear ended me because he was on the phone? Or on Monday when I'd planned to go to a certain favorite store, parked, then found I had not a single quarter for the meter in the whole car and had to drive away, and the store didn't burn down or get held up or anything? Nothing like that ever happens to you, I'm sure, only very very meaningful coincidences, like having an employer see your resume on a resume posting site.

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But this is what drives me crazy. That God intervened so you could rent a better house but didn't intervene when someone was being tortured or raped or killed. I was raised a Christian and I still don't get it.

I don't claim to understand it either. Personally, I believe that these things happen because God allows men to have their own way, Free Will. Now...until and unless the rest of us get good and outraged and stand up, this shit will continue to happen. Why did my baby boy die in my arms? Who the hell knows? Why did my mother suffer for three months before she died? Who knows.

If God stepped in and solved all our problems, we'd live in paradise. Nice thought, but it isn't going to happen. We have choices, to either act in a moral manner or not to act in a moral manner. That is the conundrum. Not everyone is going to act in a moral manner. So, I do what I can in my own little corner of the world, and hope that others would too. I'm far from a "bible-thumper" and have my share of doubts. BUT...since I don't believe in random chance nor do I believe that the universe got here from an accident of physics, I believe there's some higher being.

And...questioning and not understanding is not a bad thing...

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I don't claim to understand it either. Personally, I believe that these things happen because God allows men to have their own way, Free Will. Now...until and unless the rest of us get good and outraged and stand up, this shit will continue to happen. Why did my baby boy die in my arms? Who the hell knows? Why did my mother suffer for three months before she died? Who knows.

If God stepped in and solved all our problems, we'd live in paradise. Nice thought, but it isn't going to happen. We have choices, to either act in a moral manner or not to act in a moral manner. That is the conundrum. Not everyone is going to act in a moral manner. So, I do what I can in my own little corner of the world, and hope that others would too. I'm far from a "bible-thumper" and have my share of doubts. BUT...since I don't believe in random chance nor do I believe that the universe got here from an accident of physics, I believe there's some higher being.

And...questioning and not understanding is not a bad thing...

So "God" COULD have made all people good and moral, he COULD have never allowed bad things to happen. But he didn't. Because he's apparently an asshole. It's pretty selfish of you to think that God helped you, but he's apparently too busy to help the people of North Korea.

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Ok...I'm out...I have questions and doubts but I deal with them. Shit happens...the question of evil is something that theologians have devoted their entire lives to questioning. It happens.

Human beings have free will. we can choose. Some choose to do evil. Some choose to do good. Forcing everyone to do good would be like living like the Duggars or Maxwells...a robotic existence devoid of choice. No thanks.

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Please be gentle with yourself, too. Others are exactly right that when something like this happens at a place that you have a connection to, even if you are thousands of miles away, sometimes the impact can be surprising in its intensity.

I am a Virginia Tech alumna.

When I heard the initial reports of a mass shooting and students running across "the drillfield" (even though Tech wasn't named until a few minutes later) I was glad I was driving by myself after dropping the kids off at preschool because I screamed out loud and had to pull over on the side of the road. I had not visited at that point since my graduation in 1996 but I was in a daze for weeks afterwards.

Luckily the broadcasts of the survivors and observers in the Seattle area was not full of God Intervention. I think I would have reacted in anger too. But yes. People who have been through immediate, life-threatening trauma often have the same responses that the young man did. I have heard people say the wildest things in response to it, for lesser trauma (like a severe car accident, ect). Having someone shoot at you and knowing that you were shot at triggers so many visceral things and it will probably be months before anyone who was in that building at the time will be back to normal. It may take a long time for you too. And that is ok.

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Ok...I'm out...I have questions and doubts but I deal with them. Shit happens...the question of evil is something that theologians have devoted their entire lives to questioning. It happens.

Human beings have free will. we can choose. Some choose to do evil. Some choose to do good. Forcing everyone to do good would be like living like the Duggars or Maxwells...a robotic existence devoid of choice. No thanks.

If you believe that God created mankind (there is no evidence of this, but if you take it by faith, that's a different matter) then why could God not have created mankind to not be cruel? It's just so hard to believe that some supposedly "all-loving, all-loving" being, could create mankind knowing that they would choose to commit evil.

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If you believe that God created mankind (there is no evidence of this, but if you take it by faith, that's a different matter) then why could God not have created mankind to not be cruel? It's just so hard to believe that some supposedly "all-loving, all-loving" being, could create mankind knowing that they would choose to commit evil.

I can't fly, but I still feel like I have free will. I can't photosynthesize, yet I feel like I have free will. I can't bench press 600 pounds, but I still feel like I have free will. I can't ejaculate yet I still feel like I have free will.

So why is the ability to rape children so important to my free will?

Botfly larvae are plenty bad enough without malaria. Me punching someone and saying mean things is plenty bad enough without killing them. I mean, just look at that book you revere. Blasphemy and rape are the same in terms of evil, so why do we need rape?

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I don't see it that way at all...and I damn sure would not go running my mouth about it. God has a way of slapping the arrogant down (See Doug Phillips is a tool).

I just don't believe in coincidences anymore. There are too many examples in my life to make me believe in just random luck. Example: Getting contacted for a job I never applied for, had never heard of the company. Yeah, I put my resume out on Indeed but...had not gotten a single hit until this one (which was a home run). One phone interview, one brunch interview and I walked out with a verbal offer for a fantastic job at more money than I had ever made. They even offered my husband a job. The head honcho at this company is also a type 1 diabetic and totally understands what it's like to be a diabetic and has no problems offering my husband accommodation for his medical problems.

Example 2: Took my last 150 bucks and signed up for a class at the local community college (had no idea how I was going to come up with the 90 bucks for the book). 4 weeks into the semester, some men came from the local large employer and offered the class a free education and a guaranteed job. Ended up working for that company for 10 years.

Example 3: applied to rent a house. Got turned down. Ended up finding a better house at the same rent, closer to work, lower deposit. Found out about it through a friend of a friend. Looked at it on Thursday, moved in the following Monday.

Now, we're going through some stuff with my husband and his legal situation. The "official types" are being assholes. However, through it, we are BOTH learning certain lessons. It totally sucks, but there are lessons being learned daily. AND...there are things happening in the background that will hopefully get the situation changed in our favor.

So...this is why I do not believe in random chance. At all. Even when bad things happen, there's a bigger picture we can't see.

Just my perspective as a Christian.

See, this is exactly what i mean. Your own words scream "See, I'm gods special snowflake, god has big plans for me".

The human brain is wired to look for patterns. Even when there really isn't a pattern our minds still try to organize things into recognizable sequences. I could list oodles of 'divine intervention' stories from my life if I wished. So could anyone. We could also list just as many, if not more instances of when things didn't go our way. (who do we blame then, the devil?) Thing is, as a Christian, you are already predisposed to search for gods intervention in your life. That is how you organize and classify events. It really is pretty conceited way of looking at the world.

We laugh when fundies write about god answering their prayers with a great parking spot, or the perfect dress on sale. The 'god saved me' claim is the same, extremely self-centered. Claiming that you are somehow more worth than those around you to be spared (or to get that great parking spot). More deserving of gods favors.

Read a great quote from a Christian who objected to this type of thinking. "God is not an ATM." So no, it's not really a Christian perspective. It's a very self serving perspective.

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This is why the Christian interpretation of G-D bugs me so much. Honestly I have to stop thinking about it because it makes my brain hurt.

So G-D spared you, why didn't he spare those other victims? Or better yet, why didn't he do something to "stop" the shooter.

Once you bring G-D into it where do the questions end?

If G-D is so in control he can interject and change our lives why the fuck are people dying. Why doesn't G-D do something to stop school shooting. Like by Idk fucking guiding Congress to pass gun control.

This kids quote basically says G-D wanted me safe but didn't give a shit about those other victims.

Mandy, that mindset is high on the list of reasons that I am not a religious person.

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I think the reason so many people have the visceral response of "I was saved for a reason" is because it means they are safe. If god intervened and stopped a bullet then he must be super fond of me and nothing bad will happen to me as long as keep doing things that please him. It's incredibly scary to think that things happen randomly and that we have no control over our destiny. It's why people are scared of flying but will happily drive all day long- in a care we are driving we are in control, in a plane we are not.

However, if you think about it, the guy with the textbook wasn't the only person who escaped death that day. I escaped death, too, and so did everyone else on this board and in the world who didn't die. Not so special after all...

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I believe the universe is essentially random. Shit happens. Sometimes it happens to good people. There is war, genocide, children starving, and other horrible things. I don't get why some people get killed in Darfur, and some live in the lap of luxury. If there is a god, I don't believe that he intervenes in our affairs.

However, I do believe that good can come out of bad. Sometimes not getting what you thought you wanted works out for the best, like not getting a job you wanted and getting a better one. An example from my life is that I am raising my rapist's child. I love my daughter more than anything in this world. She is absolutely the best thing that has ever happened to me. Am I glad I was raped as a teen? Of course not. Would I undo it? No, because something amazing came out of it. It's complicated. But it isn't god.

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I've got a couple of notable examples of bullets being stopped by objects before they could kill the intended target. (I knew of the first example beforehand, but not the second until a few minutes ago.) Former president Theodore Roosevelt was running for president once again in 1912 on the Bullmoose ticket. He was supposed to give a speech in Milwaukee when he was shot in the chest. The bullet was stopped from penetrating his chest by his eyeglasses case and a thick folded speech he had in his breast pocket of his suit jacket. Teddy realized he's been hit, but went on to give his 90 minute speech. Blood was seeping onto his shirt. Teddy famously remarked "Ladies and gentlemen, I don't know whether you fully understand that I have just been shot; but it takes more than that to kill a Bull Moose."

General (and later President of France) Charles DeGaulle was the subject of an assassination attempt in 1962. The bullet was stopped by the frame of a picture of his beloved Anne, his daughter with Down syndrome who died in 1948. He always carried it with him and had placed it on the rear shelf of the car that day. When DeGaulle died in 1970, he was buried beside Anne.

I don't know that either man claimed providence was responsible to their survival.

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Just learned yesterday that the young man, Farhad Ahmed, who WAS shot is paralyzed from the waist down.

Oh, the poor guy. :(

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Rebelwife, I am so sorry you, your town and those who got shot have had to go through this.

The fact that the paper quoted this statement, and went out of their way to mention what church he attends, makes them part of the problem, I think. It highlights the idea that of course God saved the believer, that it is culturally acceptable that he "deserved" to survive.

I wonder about the ellipses -- did they edit out questions they asked and other things he said, to push the focus towards it being direct intervention from God? I'd be more annoyed with the reporter, if so, than a young man who had gotten shot six hours earlier.

Either way, the belief is annoying to me, as well, and potentially seriously upsetting. I do want to think "eh, poor guy just got shot, he can say whatever he wants." But, I would also find him unbearable if he went on to witness for years about how he was chosen and protected by God, because Christian.

That assumption is the seemingly harmless, flip side of the "God is on our side" assumption in war. It's part and parcel of the superstitious, fear-based variety of religion, that frightens people into praying for protection like they were paying off a Mob boss. It's the kind of belief that creates people who rage at God because God didn't "pay off" in the way they expected. Worse, it's the kind of belief that can create self-righteous creeps who want to make everyone follow their rules, because they really think God loves them best -- the fundies on whom we snark here.

I think being angered by someone thinking that God stepped in to save the believer is perfectly natural, and actually ethical. To me, it's the natural, decent reaction of someone who either doesn't believe in any god, or whose concept of God is that of a supreme being who isn't sitting on a cloud playing a petty game of "who deserves to live today?"

I apologize for not remembering what your beliefs are -- I hope I didn't overstep. But, whatever they are, it sounds like you don't think God is a petty, "kiss my tooshy or get punished" God, and that has to be a good thing! :D

Thoughtful, I can live a thousand years and not like you as much as I want to.

My kids survived nicu. Many others around us DIDNT make it, and believe me, it wasn't because I'm such an awesome mom and so much better than the other moms. Headship survived his army service, some of his buddies didn't. Brother-in-law stepped off a helicopter to let someone else fly. Five minutes later he watched as the helicopter crashed to the ground and burst into flames. If I was a believer, I would definitely not trust a god who picks and chooses in random, always making his believers second-guess themselves, keeping them on their toes for the randomness of it all.

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This attitude always strikes me as similar to people who pray for parking spaces or other silly stuff, and really believe God gives it to them.

Two sides of the same arrogant coin as far as I'm concerned.

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This attitude always strikes me as similar to people who pray for parking spaces or other silly stuff, and really believe God gives it to them.

Two sides of the same arrogant coin as far as I'm concerned.

I hate people like that, I prayed to get a GPS at WalMart and God answered my prayer. :roll:

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Thoughtful, I can live a thousand years and not like you as much as I want to.

Aw, gosh -- I don't think I deserve that! But thank you for making a (mostly) good day even better for me!

My kids survived nicu. Many others around us DIDNT make it, and believe me, it wasn't because I'm such an awesome mom and so much better than the other moms. Headship survived his army service, some of his buddies didn't. Brother-in-law stepped off a helicopter to let someone else fly. Five minutes later he watched as the helicopter crashed to the ground and burst into flames. If I was a believer, I would definitely not trust a god who picks and chooses in random, always making his believers second-guess themselves, keeping them on their toes for the randomness of it all.

Great examples, and they bring up another issue I hadn't thought of. I imagine that clinging to this sort of "I made it because God protected me" belief, in a person who is trying to be ethical and fair, who sort of knows better underneath it all, can lead to horrible survivor guilt.

I would imagine that it also leads decent people away from faith.

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This is one of the worst aspects of religion-- the use of a god to justify/explain good and bad luck. The Bible was used by slave owners to explain to slaves that their lot in life was justified. It was used in the Medieval ages to explain why some people were Kings and some people were serfs. I have heard that GOD is why some women miscarry, whey some people die, why some people are cursed with terrible life-long afflictions. It is just too difficult to hear the truth: shit happens and it cannot be avoided no matter how pious you are and no matter how you live your life.

Life is a series of random accidents but our human brain is always looking for patterns. For some people this pattern turns into God-- God has willed it. When asked to explain why God has allowed all of the bad stuff to happen then the answer must be God is mysterious, there is no other way to interpret the strange random pattern that is the god invented by men.

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