How Long Before Jill Starts to Realize All She's Missed?

[grandmadugger]

I don't know how to quote a bunch of different posts and I was afraid it would be hard to read if I did figure it out.

Derick has said prior to meeting and marrying Jill that he wanted his son to follow in his foot steps and be Pistol Pete. I've wondered if he knows what he's up against to see that dream through.

Just because he and JB were prayer partners doesn't mean that JB showed his full whackadoodleness to Derick. Until recently I was clueless to just what the Duggars truly believed. I might have never known if I hadn't Googled Jill and Derick and found JF.

I don't think Derick would have any different dreams for a daughter than his son other than the Pistol Pete thing. Derick was raised with a mother who worked. She is educated and successful in her career. I don't see Derick telling his daughter that she can't do what her grandma did.

While I hope that Jill finishes her midwife stuff I don't know if she will. Someone posted the requirements for Arkansas and it was pretty extensive. It's not that I don't believe Jill is capable is that she has no role model. No one she grew up with achieved anything educational or work wise. Her parents stayed home with her. No one went off to work. No one really worked much out of the home either. She may know how to buy property but I doubt JB or Michelle showed her much in that. It's hard to be the first in the family to do anything.

[Boogalou]

I don't think that Jill and Derrick going to see Cinderella on Broadway is totally shocking for a Duggar. Michelle and Jom Bob saw Godspell and posed with the cast. http://www.broadway.com/shows/godspell/ ... -godspell/

Also, I think on one of their trips the whole family went to see something on Braodway. I was thinking Mary Poppins but I can't find anything about it. I think it was in 2008 on the episode Duggars do New York but I don't feel like watching it right now. Or maybe they just mentioned going on a Today Show interview?

Anyway, I know people want to see Derrick as progressive but I don't see it. If he married Jill to change her I think that is a really stupid thing to do. I think what is more likely is that Derrick is becoming a lot more conservative rather than Jill becoming more liberal, YMMV of course.

[grandmadugger]

I don't think that Jill and Derrick going to see Cinderella on Broadway is totally shocking for a Duggar. Michelle and Jom Bob saw Godspell and posed with the cast. http://www.broadway.com/shows/godspell/ ... -godspell/

Also, I think on one of their trips the whole family went to see something on Braodway. I was thinking Mary Poppins but I can't find anything about it. I think it was in 2008 on the episode Duggars do New York but I don't feel like watching it right now. Or maybe they just mentioned going on a Today Show interview?

Anyway, I know people want to see Derrick as progressive but I don't see it. If he married Jill to change her I think that is a really stupid thing to do. I think what is more likely is that Derrick is becoming a lot more conservative rather than Jill becoming more liberal, YMMV of course.

I'd rather see them balance each other than change each other totally. Jill has good qualities and there has to be some positives from her life that she can share with Derick. Just like Derick has experiences that I hope he shares with Jill. I was raised by pretty liberal parents, OK for my area they were left wing nutjobs. My grandmother, who raised me after my mom died, was a die in the wool Republican, I still think it was to bug her little brother the die in the wool Dem. I ended up in the middle. So I'm praying that the same can happen with Jill and Derick.

[Yoshimi]

Coco - do midwives not do the things that you mentioned like start an IV, etc.? What’s the purpose of a midwife then? Not being snarky here, just genuinely curious.

Moving off-topic for a bit - Jill and Derick did a Skype interview to discuss their marriage and pregnancy as part of the Focus on the Family website. Whole video playlist can be found on youtube here -

.

There’s 15(!) parts to their interview but most of the clips are short and they’re all labeled so it’s pretty easy to pick and chose which ones to watch. Of course I saw the entire thing. ;) Not surprisingly, Jill repeats a lot of the same kool-aidy stuff that she’s become known for. Whatever, I still thought her and Derick were sweet together. It's apparent that they're still in their honeymoon phase and it's nice seeing a man be so attentive to his wife although some may view that as him being "whipped", for lack of a better word.

A few other points -

- Maybe because I’ve become so accustomed to Jill dominating the conversations but I thought she did a better job in this interview of letting Derick talk although that didn't stop her from interrupting him completely.

-Poor Derick sounded like he had a cold.

-Heh, sounds like Derick might have slipped up when he said Jill had previous experience as a mom. Also possible “FU†moment? Derick talked about how much he appreciates it when Jill sends him texts thanking him for going to work and being the provider for their family.

-I have no idea who the other couple was but they seemed like pretty normal conservative Christians and not crazy fundies. I thought they gave some good advice that I hope Jill and Derick take to heart. Things like not making children the entire focus of their marriage but really working on getting to know each other as individuals.

[kelseyjhale]

alright quick question.......when the fuck did they go wine tasting? :?

[nst]

Coco

-Poor Derick sounded like he had a cold.

-Heh, sounds like Derick might have slipped up when he said Jill had previous experience as a mom. Also possible “FU†moment? Derick talked about how much he appreciates it when Jill sends him texts thanking him for going to work and being the provider for their family.

-I have no idea who the other couple was but they seemed like pretty normal conservative Christians and not crazy fundies. I thought they gave some good advice that I hope Jill and Derick take to heart. Things like not making children the entire focus of their marriage but really working on getting to know each other as individuals.

if you do the math - they haven't been married all that long five months - but it seems like eons

as for the texts thanking him - that is totally Jill

[Yoshimi]

if you do the math - they haven't been married all that long five months - but it seems like eons

as for the texts thanking him - that is totally Jill

LOL well some people were convinced that Jill had a huge problem with Derick going to work because of one off-handed comment she made a long time ago in a TH that I personally felt was more her being flirty than her being dead serious. And now we have word from the Dillards themselves that Jill is *totally* fine with him working. She's more than grateful in fact, and she let's her husband know it! You have to admit that it's a pretty sweet & considerate thing for her to do. Even if you don't, what's more important is that DERICK apparently appreciates her saying those things.

[grandmadugger]

alright quick question.......when the fuck did they go wine tasting? :?

They went to the local grape and wine fest. I doubt they actually had wine because Jill would have been PG at the time. I never saw anything about wine from them.

[nst]

watching that video of Jill and Derick and how they talked about being chaperoned and how they felt now opposed to being able to spend time together without being watched feels somewhat stifled and upsetting - like being let go from a prison - I mean I feel free every day- can you imagine not feeling free - it just sounds so wrong on so many levels.

[LongDogMom]

Starting something is not the same thing as completing something.

I'll give credit when it can be proven that Jill actually finishes an educational endeavor

to completion.

Jill may be interested in midwifery, but I don't believe she's taking the schooling necessary to get a license in Arkansas as even a Lay Midwife. She may have apprenticed with someone but she isn't doing what she needs to do in order to be licensed or certified and I looked up Arkansas law regarding this and a person can become an Apprentice Lay Midwife but it's to gain practical experience in order to apply for a license to become a Licensed Lay Midwife:

"APPRENTICE LAY MIDWIFE": A person who is granted a permit by the Division of Health to obtain the practical experience required to apply for a regular license.

The Licensed Lay Midwife Program is guided by Arkansas State Law.

The Arkansas Board of Health gave the authority to the Arkansas Department of Health to oversee and administer the Licensed Lay Midwife Program., which was delegated to the Women’s Health Section. The responsibilities include assisting with the Lay Midwife licensure process, apprentice applications and permits, monitoring of the Lay Midwife’s practice and birth records, providing guidance and monitoring of the Lay Midwife Rules and Regulations along with some educational opportunities. Although the Licensed Lay Midwife is not a Physician or Certified Nurse Midwife, she is trained in prenatal care, labor and delivery, postpartum care, and newborn care. The Licensed Lay Midwife provides a choice for a home delivery.

-----------------

So I'm not sure exactly what Jill was doing but I don't believe she was following the necessary legal path to become a actual licensed lay midwife. I could be wrong, but regardless, she seemed to have abandoned becoming a midwife anyways. But I've noticed that the Duggars *usually Michelle* do a lot of vague talking about their kids learning or pursuing this or that, but I'm not sure how much they do legally as required by law and actually become certified. Clearly JohnDavid must've in order to fly his plane, so maybe they do more than I'm giving the credit for, but often it all seems somewhat vague.

[LongDogMom]

Neither Duggar parent attended college. None of the eight children who are 18 and older has attended college, nor were they encouraged to attend. Jill takes some kind of classes about midwifery, but I don't think she attends an actual school, does she? I've never head it mentioned. She even had to do her midwifery with Jana, studying to be a doula, because she cannot do things alone. The Duggars wanted their children to be strong in their beliefs and character and that is where they put the effort, not in educating them to be able to attend a university and become engineers, teachers, pharmacists, nurses, or accountants. Jill, and the rest of the Duggars, seem to value education only as long as it fits in with their beliefs and sheltered lifestyle..

It's ironic that they wanted their children to be strong in their beliefs and character and yet crippled them in so many ways. They do almost nothing on their own and are not encouraged to question or think for themselves.

We homeschooled for a number of years when my boys were small and I bent over backwards to open as many doors of opportunity for them as I could. The Duggars seem to be more intent on locking as many doors as possible. They pretend on their show that the kids could go to college if they want but they haven't wanted to pursue that. We all know that's BS. Those kids are not encouraged to go to college or anything where they might be encouraged to think for themselves. No, they must keep close to each other to continually reinforce the brainwashing. I mean it blows my mind that they were not even allowed to read secular books. Clearly every single thing had to reinforce Gothard's rules and their belief system. No wonder they had to monitor everything said between courting couples. Can't have someone saying somethig that might make them think. :penguin-no:

[grandmadugger]

It's ironic that they wanted their children to be strong in their beliefs and character and yet crippled them in so many ways. They do almost nothing on their own and are not encouraged to question or think for themselves.

We homeschooled for a number of years when my boys were small and I bent over backwards to open as many doors of opportunity for them as I could. The Duggars seem to be more intent on locking as many doors as possible. They pretend on their show that the kids could go to college if they want but they haven't wanted to pursue that. We all know that's BS. Those kids are not encouraged to go to college or anything where they might be encouraged to think for themselves. No, they must keep close to each other to continually reinforce the brainwashing. I mean it blows my mind that they were not even allowed to read secular books. Clearly every single thing had to reinforce Gothard's rules and their belief system. No wonder they had to monitor everything said between courting couples. Can't have someone saying somethig that might make them think. :penguin-no:

Yeah because if they were allowed to go to college Josh would be a lawyer like he really wanted to.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Michelle just mentioned the other day that Jill was still studying to be a midwife.

[Yoshimi]

Jill may be interested in midwifery, but I don't believe she's taking the schooling necessary to get a license in Arkansas as even a Lay Midwife. She may have apprenticed with someone but she isn't doing what she needs to do in order to be licensed or certified and I looked up Arkansas law regarding this and a person can become an Apprentice Lay Midwife but it's to gain practical experience in order to apply for a license to become a Licensed Lay Midwife:

...

So I'm not sure exactly what Jill was doing but I don't believe she was following the necessary legal path to become a actual licensed lay midwife. I could be wrong, but regardless, she seemed to have abandoned becoming a midwife anyways. But I've noticed that the Duggars *usually Michelle* do a lot of vague talking about their kids learning or pursuing this or that, but I'm not sure how much they do legally as required by law and actually become certified. Clearly JohnDavid must've in order to fly his plane, so maybe they do more than I'm giving the credit for, but often it all seems somewhat vague.

Is a certified professional midwife (CPM) any different from LLM? Because I've heard her mention more than once about how she was trying for her CPM credentials but I don't think I've ever heard her use the phrase "licensed lay midwife" when talking about her work. Are they the same thing or can one be mutually exclusive from the other? From what I've heard becoming a CPM is pretty much a two step process: 1. work as an apprentice under another certified midwife, first as a bystander, then an assistant, and finally as a primary under supervision 2. pass a written exam.

Jill worked under Venessa (a CPM) for a number of years and she has been said to be pretty close to or completed her apprenticeship. YMMV but I do believe she has spent a lot more time at the birth center than what has been shown on the show. I base this not just on what Jill and her family have said but also on the testimonials of the other midwives she worked with and her clients.

[grandmadugger]

Arkansas has a Lay Midwife certification. You can see what they require here http://www.healthy.arkansas.gov/aboutAD ... wifery.pdf

[FloraDoraDolly]

Going back to the original question, I don't see Jill as a bitter person who will get angry when/if she realizes what she has missed. Despite her status as a kool-aid drinker, I also don't see her fearing hell and damnation if Derick decides he wants to raise their children somewhat differently. Jill comes off as a mellow, drama-free person who just deals with life as it comes. She and Derick won't have to make every decision about this child (or any future children) immediately. Baby Dilly is five years away from kindergarten and eighteen years away from college. Jim Bob and Michelle will be old by then and most likely worn out from raising the last of their brood. They will have neither the time nor the energy to freak out if Dilly does indeed become a Pistol Pete. Besides, I have the feeling that Josh's kids will get to go to college, especially if he stays in DC. I think *he* is the one who truly understands what he has missed, even though he doesn't come out and say so. (Yes, I understand he is still fundie and works for a conservative political organization, but I am thinking in terms of him comparing himself to others in his workplace and realizing full well that they enjoyed more freedom as children and received a better education than he did.)

[isarhenne]

I think there will be three new announcements by the end of the year:

- Jessa pregnant

- Anna pregnant

- a new courtship (JD or Jana)

[eh02]

I think the fact that Jill seems so head over heels for Derick probably will help her loosen up to some things that she may not have done before. She clearly didn't seem morally conflicted seeing a Broadway show. Being in love and really thinking about your future with your spouse, how you will raise your kids etc. can make you change rather quickly, and honestly, I think she's going to very quickly find out that Derick loves her and has her best interest in mind more than her parents ever did. Her parents took advantage of her willingness to help and work hard and made her a slave. I really can't see Derick doing that, though of course I could be wrong.

Plus, the fact that Jill has stayed pretty quiet recently while Jessa and Josh seem to have no problem continuing the sometimes vague (and sometimes blunt) tweets and instagrams about their parents, the same-sex kissing controversy etc. kind of gives me a bit of hope. I don't think Jill's had a major shift of mindset or anything, but at least she doesn't really appear to have any interest in standing on a mountaintop preaching to all the lowly people below like JB+M, Josh, Jessa etc. Basically, I don't think Jill has burned any major bridges yet, and that's probably going to work in her favor.

For Jessa, she seems so stubborn and strongwilled that I think any real shifts would take time. I can't really see her as someone who could just say "yeah, I was wrong, this is what I believe now." That's just my personal stance as someone with a much more Jessa-like personality though. I hope she surprises us. I'd love to see all of them "normalized" a bit, and I'd especially love to see them all moved FAR away from Arkansas!

[MrsYoungie]

I'm not surprised that Jill texts little love notes to the wonderful man, Derek Dillard. What the heck else does she have to do all day? She is a young healthy woman who is only 1/2 way through her pregnancy. She is alone all day in a huge house that only houses two people. How much mess can there be to clean? How much cooking needs to be done for the two of them?

I thought she had given up the midwifery. Is she still studying? Can she be on call for deliveries now that she would have to go without Jana?

What the heck does she do all day??? I'd slit my wrists from boredom.

[eh02]

I'm not surprised that Jill texts little love notes to the wonderful man, Derek Dillard. What the heck else does she have to do all day? She is a young healthy woman who is only 1/2 way through her pregnancy. She is alone all day in a huge house that only houses two people. How much mess can there be to clean? How much cooking needs to be done for the two of them?

I thought she had given up the midwifery. Is she still studying? Can she be on call for deliveries now that she would have to go without Jana?

What the heck does she do all day??? I'd slit my wrists from boredom.

I agree that as someone who seems to always need something to do to stay busy, Jill must get bored. I also don't think it's surprising or "wrong" that sometimes her relationship with Derick seems kind of like teenagers in love. This is her first relationship, and most of us were able to get the silly things out of our system at a way younger age than Jill. They seem very happy so far. And despite people's speculation that having a baby will shock them out of their lovey-dovey phase, I tend to think they will handle it well. They seem like they both very genuinely wanted a child, rather than some other fundies who just kind of go through the motions and do it because it is what is the next expected step.

Michelle did say very recently (can't remember where) that Jill was still studying midwifery. I don't think she would have mentioned it if it wasn't going to be a plot point, so I'm still thinking it is possible Jill will have a birthing center in that enormous house. Part of me thinks that'd be great for Jill and would make her really happy, but part of me just thinks...uhg, if they do that, she will be stuck in Arkansas forever, please no. :angry-banghead:

[SassyPants]

I doubt Jill will be doing any independent MWing in the next 20+ years. In order to do so, much work would need to be done, including state testing. When would Jill have the time? She seemingly abandoned that cause and goal as soon as the engagement ring was placed. I find the whole role of women in the Gothard hierarchy sad. Jill is just another bot-

[eh02]

I don't think Jill would (or could) run a midwifery "business" alone. However, I wouldn't be surprised if she worked with that woman who helped plan her wedding out of her home, or perhaps the rest of her "team" of midwives (not sure how many midwives there are).

They've featured that woman a lot on the show, and there aren't really a lot of "outsider characters" they've featured quite so frequently, so that's what made me think maybe it could be a real possibility.

[SassyPants]

I don't think Jill would (or could) run a midwifery "business" alone. However, I wouldn't be surprised if she worked with that woman who helped plan her wedding out of her home, or perhaps the rest of her "team" of midwives (not sure how many midwives there are).

They've featured that woman a lot on the show, and there aren't really a lot of "outsider characters" they've featured quite so frequently, so that's what made me think maybe it could be a real possibility.

What Jill has been shown doing is actually what the MW would be doing- doppler checks, cervical assessments...and I think those were filmed for the show to give credence to the notion that Jill was studying to become a MW, which no longer seems to be true.

Maybe, setting up, rubbing backs, filling bathtubs, keeping the dad informed and calm and clean up duties post birth? A second set of hands? All with baby Duggar in a wrap?

[eh02]

Considering Jill is practically an Arkansas celebrity, I have a feeling Christian women who live in her area would be clawing at her feet for her to be their midwife and probably would be more accommodating than most. I mean, she wouldn't be the first woman with a baby to work, she'd be able to decide how many clients to take on, and if she worked out of her home, it wouldn't be THAT hard to care for her own baby too, especially considering her sisters live nearby and her husband would be able to take care of the baby in non-office hours.

I don't know if Jill can actually practice at all independently since obviously whatever certification she is getting is not the same as the route most midwives take (RN at minimum, and usually a graduate degree too), but it is a "step up" from a doula at least. Doulas are usually the ones who are doing the back rubs and stuff like that, and they rarely perform any real clinical tasks. It would be great if Jill actually got her RN in the future. I'm keeping my hopes up...

[sparklymagie]

Is a certified professional midwife (CPM) any different from LLM? Because I've heard her mention more than once about how she was trying for her CPM credentials but I don't think I've ever heard her use the phrase "licensed lay midwife" when talking about her work. Are they the same thing or can one be mutually exclusive from the other? From what I've heard becoming a CPM is pretty much a two step process: 1. work as an apprentice under another certified midwife, first as a bystander, then an assistant, and finally as a primary under supervision 2. pass a written exam.

Jill worked under Venessa (a CPM) for a number of years and she has been said to be pretty close to or completed her apprenticeship. YMMV but I do believe she has spent a lot more time at the birth center than what has been shown on the show. I base this not just on what Jill and her family have said but also on the testimonials of the other midwives she worked with and her clients.

It looks like there is a difference between a CPM and LLM. Per the "Rules and Regulations for Governing the Practice of Lay Midwifery in Arkansas" published by Arkansas Department of Health, "All applicants for licensure in Arkansas must follow procedures for Regular License. Midwives holding a Certified Professional Midwife certificate through the North American Registry of Midwives may apply for a Lay Midwife license.

The CPM credential will be considered equivalent to the practical experience and NARM testing requirement. The Lay Midwife must complete an application, meet all the requirements for education,TB, rubella, and CPR and pass the state regulations test."

I didn't look into it much further, but it appears that your opportunities and what you can legally do with midwife certificate are probably much more limited than what you can do as a licensed midwife.