How Long Before Jill Starts to Realize All She's Missed?

[Coco]

Derick is such a sweet guy, i can see him gradually helping her get away from the restrictive rules before she even really notices it. Jill seems completely stuck on what she's been taught is "right". I hope she can loosen up a little bit, but a lot of the time you get that vibe from her TH's that she knows what is best and everyone else needs to get with the program :lol: She needs an open mind before she can change, and everything her parents have taught her has been focused on a narrow-minded, closed view of the world.

[BrownieMomma]

Exactly. Going to the bar is one thing, but I cannot believe that Derick is against music, dancing with one's spouse, movies, BOOKS (the Duggars limit books), pants, a healthy diet, new shoes, EDUCATION.

It's really hard to go backwards. I cannot imagine that many people who have been educated, would want their own children to remain uneducated. Let's face it, the Duggars have about a 4th grade education.

If Derick has a daughter, he is really going to have to think long and hard about what he wants for that child in this life. He doesn't have a sister, so this has not come up for him but if he has a girl, is he going to drink the kool aid and want her to raised like Jill, or will he want something different for his girl, like an education

[MoonFace]

I think the Duggars do exchange presents at Christmas, but it's more like a secret santa. The kids all choose names and get a gift for that person, because the sheer number of them makes it financially impossible for the parents to get multiple gifts for each child. (At least, that's what they had us believe in the past - nowadays they could probably swing it fairly easily, considering they have money to do things like buy airplanes while also paying for weddings, but it seems unlikely they'll change that custom now that the kids are used to it...)

Wasn't there an episode that shows them going to a thrift store for their Christmas shopping?

[Yoshimi]

Why do people think education is not important to Jill? Have people forgotten that JILL’S the one who pushed her parents to get her to study midwifery? Could have been nursing instead if her parents weren’t so against the idea. :( Still, I give Jill a lot of credit. Out of all the Duggar kids so far, she’s the only one who’s shown a real initiative in pursuing a higher education.

Combined with Derick’s own history, I don’t see the Dillards slacking off on education as far as their kids are concerned. I saw that their baby registries had bunch of educational toys and books on it already, including a book of Spanish nursery rhymes. Oh yeah that’s right, Jill was/is studying Spanish too. Another point in her favor.

IMO it’s still too early to dismiss Jill as a rapid kool-aid drinker. Weren’t people saying the same about Josh and Anna when they first got married? Now 6 years later and a move to DC, people are noticing that Josh and Anna are setting themselves apart from his parents a bit. What’s to say that the same won’t happen with Jill and Derick? It’s unfair to compare Jill to Jessa because I think Jessa has been wanting out for a long time now. So naturally she would jump at the first chance she has to “rebelâ€. It’ll probably take Jill longer before she too starts accepting change and I also suspect that if/when she does, she won’t be so openly “FU†about it like her sister. Like we saw with Derick and her going to that Broadway show. If Derick hadn't posted about it, we may have never known they went because I don't Jill would have said anything. I can only imagine what other stuff they did during their weekend in NY that the public doesn't know about.

[SassyPants]

Why do people think education is not important to Jill? Have people forgotten that JILL’S the one who pushed her parents to get her to study midwifery? Could have been nursing instead if her parents weren’t so against the idea. :( Still, I give Jill a lot of credit. Out of all the Duggar kids so far, she’s the only one who’s shown a real initiative in pursuing a higher education.

Combined with Derick’s own history, I don’t see the Dillards slacking off on education as far as their kids are concerned. I saw that their baby registries had bunch of educational toys and books on it already, including a book of Spanish nursery rhymes. Oh yeah that’s right, Jill was/is studying Spanish too. Another point in her favor.

IMO it’s still too early to dismiss Jill as a rapid kool-aid drinker. Weren’t people saying the same about Josh and Anna when they first got married? Now 6 years later and a move to DC, people are noticing that Josh and Anna are setting themselves apart from his parents a bit. What’s to say that the same won’t happen with Jill and Derick? It’s unfair to compare Jill to Jessa because I think Jessa has been wanting out for a long time now. So naturally she would jump at the first chance she has to “rebelâ€. It’ll probably take Jill longer before she too starts accepting change and I also suspect that if/when she does, she won’t be so openly “FU†about it like her sister. Like we saw with Derick and her going to that Broadway show. If Derick hadn't posted about it, we may have never known they went because I don't Jill would have said anything. I can only imagine what other stuff they did during their weekend in NY that the public doesn't know about.

Starting something is not the same thing as completing something.

I'll give credit when it can be proven that Jill actually finishes an educational endeavor

to completion. Does she speak Spanish? I've never heard it. How many of us studied a foreign language or 2 (raises hand)?

LOL- it's not nice for people to say negative things about Jill, but you managed to do exactly that re Jessa.

We get it, you like Jill.

[Letgo]

I hope I'm wrong, but I am afraid it is going to be Derick who changes. Derick chose JB as his prayer partner so he had to have had some insight on what JB believed, even before he began corresponding with him. I think the two men were prayer partners for about a year and a half before JB introduced Jill and Derick. Jill has said she asked Derick a lot of tough questions when they first began skyping, so he had to know what he was getting into before the marriage. They must have had discussions about their childhoods, parents, his college experiences, plans for the future, children, etc.

There is going to be tremendous pressure from the Duggars to continue the life style-their sheer numbers will override input from Derick's own family. He wants to make Jill happy; making choices that are outside of her comfort zone will not do that. A big indicator of this is her immediate pregnancy-no birth control, no let's wait a few months, no I'm not ready for a child, no let's just enjoy each other for a while. Nope, they did things the Duggar way. A few shows ago, there was a short discussion in an interview with Derick and Jill about how much time would be okay for a married couple to be apart from each other. He said it was okay during the day while he was at work. She turned toward him and clearly looked unhappy. She said something along the lines of no, it wasn't okay, we're going to have to talk about that. Having the husband gone at a regular job was never a part of her world. I'd bet Derick will soon be looking for a job that allows him to work from home. We also haven't seen any indication that Jill is continuing her midwifery studies, have we? Let alone going out and getting a job. I would think getting a job and earning money to put toward buying a house or second car would be a great idea, but not to Jill.

I hope Derick can get Jill to loosen up a little, but I am really thinking it will go the other way. I'm curious to see what Derick will do as they have one child after another. Will he stick with the accept-all-the-children-the-Lord-gives-us practice? Will the children be allowed to do the things he did as a child, such as attend school, join the Boy Scouts, swim, have friends, go somewhere alone? I think those things would be frightening to Jill-bad things happen away from the family.

Derick may be Jill's headship, but, as they say, she can be the neck and turn the head where she wants. I also think 23 years of obeying and pleasing JB will be a hard habit to break. Derick's title of headship may be in name only and JB will continue as the one to follow in Jill's eyes. I do hope I'm very wrong, though.

[Letgo]

Why do people think education is not important to Jill? Have people forgotten that JILL’S the one who pushed her parents to get her to study midwifery? Could have been nursing instead if her parents weren’t so against the idea. :( Still, I give Jill a lot of credit. Out of all the Duggar kids so far, she’s the only one who’s shown a real initiative in pursuing a higher education.

Combined with Derick’s own history, I don’t see the Dillards slacking off on education as far as their kids are concerned. I saw that their baby registries had bunch of educational toys and books on it already, including a book of Spanish nursery rhymes. Oh yeah that’s right, Jill was/is studying Spanish too. Another point in her favor.

IMO it’s still too early to dismiss Jill as a rapid kool-aid drinker. Weren’t people saying the same about Josh and Anna when they first got married? Now 6 years later and a move to DC, people are noticing that Josh and Anna are setting themselves apart from his parents a bit. What’s to say that the same won’t happen with Jill and Derick? It’s unfair to compare Jill to Jessa because I think Jessa has been wanting out for a long time now. So naturally she would jump at the first chance she has to “rebelâ€. It’ll probably take Jill longer before she too starts accepting change and I also suspect that if/when she does, she won’t be so openly “FU†about it like her sister. Like we saw with Derick and her going to that Broadway show. If Derick hadn't posted about it, we may have never known they went because I don't Jill would have said anything. I can only imagine what other stuff they did during their weekend in NY that the public doesn't know about.

I think education is important to Jill, but it must be done the "right" way, which means at home with mom as the teacher, or online. It does not mean attend a school of any kind. Jill's education was at home through ATI and focused on Bill Gothard's "character qualities," not on science, math, history, geography, English, foreign language, or any other subject taught in a regular public or private school. Remember the early show with Michelle teaching all of the kids about bankruptcy? Regardless of the ages of the children, they all had the same lesson. The younger Duggar children had teenage Jessa as the monitor for their lessons. (That might have been a good thing, however, as Michelle said Jessa had higher standards for them than she did.) Neither Duggar parent attended college. None of the eight children who are 18 and older has attended college, nor were they encouraged to attend. Jill takes some kind of classes about midwifery, but I don't think she attends an actual school, does she? I've never head it mentioned. She even had to do her midwifery with Jana, studying to be a doula, because she cannot do things alone. The Duggars wanted their children to be strong in their beliefs and character and that is where they put the effort, not in educating them to be able to attend a university and become engineers, teachers, pharmacists, nurses, or accountants. Jill, and the rest of the Duggars, seem to value education only as long as it fits in with their beliefs and sheltered lifestyle.

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[Yoshimi]

Starting something is not the same thing as completing something.

I'll give credit when it can be proven that Jill actually finishes an educational endeavor

to completion. Does she speak Spanish? I've never heard it. How many of us studied a foreign language or 2 (raises hand)?

LOL- it's not nice for people to say negative things about Jill, but you managed to do exactly that re Jessa.

We get it, you like Jill.

What is so “negative†about calling Jessa a rebel? Isn’t that what everyone around here has been calling her lately? Have people not be applauding Jessa for finally showing a backbone and going against her parents? Shesh, I wasn’t using that word as a derogatory term. I dislike Jessa, or more correctly, I don’t relate to Jessa as much as I do Jill for a lot of reasons but her being a rebel is not one of them.

Jill does speak Spanish. I guess you must have missed those episodes that showed her taking Spanish lessons from a neighbor or practicing medical terms in Spanish as she was studying. Or did I just dream that all up because of my pro-Jill blinders? :roll:

Congratulations to you for being so much more superior than Jill but guess what, it wasn’t her fault that she grew up in an environment that gave her very limited choices. Given that, I think Jill has tried to make the most of her opportunities. Tell me how many of the Duggar kids have started an educational endeavor like Jill has let alone even shown an interest in higher education? I give her props for being the one to stand out IN HER FAMILY. I don't know how you can argue that she didn't devote a ton of time to midwifery seeing how many of her former clients came to her bridal shower. And straight from Jessa's mouth, the moms who showed up wasn't even 1/5 of the clients that Jill has helped over the years. No, forget all that. Let's bring out the pitchforks instead because Jill dared to take a break and isn't working to OTHER PEOPLE's timetable of where they think she should be. No mention at all that Jill has repeatedly said all along that her break was only temporary, that she would go finish her midwife training once she felt better from her pregnancy and that in fact she appears to have resumed her studies again per her mom's blog.

[shedemei]

I think it's funny that we project our perceived differences on the Duggar girls (and guys) and doom them to disaster in marriage because of it.

That happens a lot on FJ in general. Everyone has different experiences, and sometimes they're just different, not wrong. Look-Jill has a family who loves her even though her parents' child-rearing tactics were questionable at best. She also has a husband who loves her, a beautiful house, a wanted pregnancy, and a stable life financially

When I was her age I had an abusive father that was still verbally abusing and controlling me. I was a college dropout working a bunch of shitty part-time jobs to support myself, untreated mental illness, and a bleak future. I envied (and resented) my friends whose childhoods and early adult lives were so much better than mine. who was doing better at that age? Who would seem to have a better present and a brighter future? Probably not me.

I would have envied the shit out of Jill at that age--fundie and all.

By my date twenties I'd cut off my father, gotten a good fulltime job, and was in a stable relationship. Now, at the end of my thirties, my life is amazing.

You just can't predict things.

[BrownieMomma]

I don't see Jill as striving hard for an educational endeavor. I saw her apprentice to a midwife but Jill doesn't a single credential she can call her own. That was filler stuff until she got married.

I agree that Derick and Jill probably had many conversations but its one thing to talk about life issues, yet quite another to live them. Derick doesn't have much in his background to comprehend the isolation and level of control that Jill grew up in.

[fabkiwi06]

I refuse to give up hope that Jill is gonna slowly break away. I mean... in this day and age, you can NOT have a baby and not end up with 20 copies of Goodnight Moon and a Disney movie. I think it'll be a slow process.. but eventually she'll embrace some more secular things.

[SassyPants]

I don't see Jill as striving hard for an educational endeavor. I saw her apprentice to a midwife but Jill doesn't a single credential she can call her own. That was filler stuff until she got married.

I agree that Derick and Jill probably had many conversations but its one thing to talk about life issues, yet quite another to live them. Derick doesn't have much in his background to comprehend the isolation and level of control that Jill grew up in.

I agree that Derick has had no experiences in his background that could prepare him for the lifestyle that Jill has lived and will likely want to impose on their children. What is weird about the Duggars is their total control and the lifeskill/opportunity limitations that they have placed on their children, yet the parents willingness to use the kids and their private moments to support their family in a very public venue. It's an odd combination and it must send mixed messages to some of the kids' suitors (or potential suitors).

[Toothfairy]

Sorry but college plus isn't real school. When I see Jill or anyone of these kids study from real books with real teachers from a real school then I'll give them credit. Jill wasn't even studying to become a real midwife, which takes a whole heap of real education. She doesn't get brownie points from me

[N The Prayer Closet]

Wasn't there an episode that shows them going to a thrift store for their Christmas shopping?

I know the kids buy gifts for one another at the thrift stores and JB and Michelle said they buy each child 3-4 new gifts every Christmas. There was a short Xmas morning shot in a house they were living in before they moved into the Cornish House when Josie was born. I won't snark on them for just a few gifts on Christmas morning but I will give Jana all the credit for buying and wrapping them.

[Four is Enough]

Starting something is not the same thing as completing something.

I'll give credit when it can be proven that Jill actually finishes an educational endeavor

to completion. Does she speak Spanish? I've never heard it. How many of us studied a foreign language or 2 (raises hand)?

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Also quoted:

Jill does speak Spanish. I guess you must have missed those episodes that showed her taking Spanish lessons from a neighbor or practicing medical terms in Spanish as she was studying. Or did I just dream that all up because of my pro-Jill blinders? :roll:

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[Sailing on Europa]

I think Jill does care about education, but she has no idea how unqualified she is to homeschool anyone. She believes her education was fantastic - that her parents did an awesome job. In her simple worldview, she has mastered all of the knowledge that she thinks matters. In Duggar land, she could be a professor. None of the Duggars know how much they don't know, and that's what bugs me. They are so smug, because they don't realize how much there *is* to know.

I'm in grad school, and I feel inadequate much of the time. The Duggars will never have to experience that. If you never try, you never have to worry about failing.

[SassyPants]

Also quoted:

Jill does speak Spanish. I guess you must have missed those episodes that showed her taking Spanish lessons from a neighbor or practicing medical terms in Spanish as she was studying. Or did I just dream that all up because of my pro-Jill blinders? :roll:

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Um. Jill does NOT speak Spanish. She has studied vocabulary, POORLY, with a terrible accent, and made no attempt in the shows I saw to string those words together in any kind of coherent manner. Indeed, when asked by Hispanic visitors TO HER OWN HOME to speak a few words, she blushed and giggled and REFUSED.

Jill may have HELPED with the deliveries of many of those women, but I doubt very much that she was PRIMARY for any or many of them. Even Arkansas law insists that she be primary caregiver for a certain number and assistant for that many more. I wouldn't have her midwife my dog.

[snarkykitty]

Now that Derick is starting to expand Jill's mind and experience by doing things like taking her to a Broadway show (of Cinderella no less) and a wine tasting and, I'm sure, other interesting things, as well as probably talking to her about his own childhood and teen years, as well as university and what that was like, do you think Jill is suddenly realizing that maybe she missed out on a lot?

I think at first Jill will remain firmly loyal to her parents and the way she was raised, but after a while of being married to Derick and having some new (previously forbidden or highly unlikely to happen) experiences, you have to wonder if she'll start thinking about all the things he had fun doing over the years that she never even had the chance to experience even once. No trick or treating, no thinking about college - what to take/where to go? No movies or music and dancing and having fun out with friends. I'm sure Derick will want his kids to experience things that he enjoyed and Derick seems to have a more normal childhood. He may be very religious, but he didn't go to a Christian college and he seems to enjoy different things (like the foods he chose for their picnic before they got married were not foods that Jill would have tried before).

The Duggars don't celebrate Christmas with presents do they? Somehow I suspect Derick's family does, and probably most of his friends do as well. I'm sure he will want his son to grow up and enjoy the same things he did when he was growing up from Christmas to going to college, and maybe try out for Pistol Pete to keep the tradition going. One of his friends already got them a baby onesie with Derick's college logo on it I think.

Even if Jill stays firm that her parents are completely right about everything for a while, it's hard to believe she won't start wondering if maybe they didn't have the greatest upbringing once she starts seeing other people and hearing about their childhoods and seeing that they aren't horrible people if they celebrated Halloween or kissed and held hands before marriage. Every time she does something that she knows her parents wouldn't approve of and has fun, I wonder if there's some cognitive dissonance going on there in her head. For once in her life questions might actually arise and lo and behold, the sky didn't fall just because she had a glass of wine or whatever.

I saw that they went to a Broadway show but didn't know that they went to a wine tasting. Wine is such a lovely gift from the Earth (yes, and God). Having a glass with dinner is just a nice way to begin an evening. I'm so happy for her!

[HereticHick]

Wine tasting? That is the first I've heard of this.

[SassyPants]

Wine tasting? That is the first I've heard of this.

She and Derick went to a grape/art festival and ate pasta.

Only in Duggarville could this morph into "Derick and Jill went wine tasting". :lol:

[AndyActually]

She and Derick went to a grape/art festival and ate pasta.

Only in Duggarville could this morph into "Derick and Jill went wine tasting". :lol:

Right. All did was eat spaghetti on plastic plates. Jill was doing that before Derick. :lol:

[Yoshimi]

Um. Jill does NOT speak Spanish. She has studied vocabulary, POORLY, with a terrible accent, and made no attempt in the shows I saw to string those words together in any kind of coherent manner. Indeed, when asked by Hispanic visitors TO HER OWN HOME to speak a few words, she blushed and giggled and REFUSED.

Jill may have HELPED with the deliveries of many of those women, but I doubt very much that she was PRIMARY for any or many of them. Even Arkansas law insists that she be primary caregiver for a certain number and assistant for that many more. I wouldn't have her midwife my dog.

I knew she did not speak Spanish. It's weird how people make stuff up to bolster a POV.

Jill has done nothing noteworthy in terms of education or enhancing marketable skills. Just the facts...

Jill does get credit for helping out in her parents' home-

[BrownieMomma]

I guess we must get different versions of the episodes because honestly Jill is *not* learning Spanish and neither has she been "primary" on deliveries only under supervision.

The Duggars dabble. Like, Jana is *not* a firefighter but you will see it reported that way sometimes. Jill is *not* a midwife.

None of the Duggars do anything that requires them to be somewhere on someone else's schedule. They don't go to school, they don't have jobs, they don't play on teams or take lessons - they live on Duggar time in Duggar world where 10 min of doing something makes them that thing.

Jill is not a midwife and she does not even speak rudimentary Spanish. This is ridiculous for you to continue to say that she does lol.

[Yoshimi]

I guess we must get different versions of the episodes because honestly Jill is *not* learning Spanish and neither has she been "primary" on deliveries only under supervision.

The Duggars dabble. Like, Jana is *not* a firefighter but you will see it reported that way sometimes. Jill is *not* a midwife.

None of the Duggars do anything that requires them to be somewhere on someone else's schedule. They don't go to school, they don't have jobs, they don't play on teams or take lessons - they live on Duggar time in Duggar world where 10 min of doing something makes them that thing.

Jill is not a midwife and she does not even speak rudimentary Spanish. This is ridiculous for you to continue to say that she does lol.

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then. TLC only shows such a small snippet of Duggar family's lives anyway so I don't think any of us can definitively say what Jill is doing or not doing in her personal life. Maybe Jill is using the time while Derick's at work to brush up on her own studies, such as Spanish? She did express interest in working the mission field somewhere in South America one day.

Edit: I will admit I was being fairly generous by saying that she "spoke" Spanish. What I really meant to say was that she was filmed on the show to be STUDYING Spanish while taking into account that there's different levels of proficiency to learning a language.

I know Jill isn't a midwife yet. She's still a student midwife who was or is currently in the PRIMARY STAGE of her training. That I know for sure she said. It was addressed in an episode last season, where she and Jana had a late night call to the birth center with Jessa tagging along as photographer. I don't know why Venessa (Jill's midwife supervisor) would allow Jill to say that she was working as a primary midwife under supervision and possibly risk her (Venessa's) reputation if it wasn't true.

Edit 2: I don't know if the 19 K&C episode "Couples' Weekend" (S08E10) is up online to watch anywhere but here's Jill's direct quote-

“I’m in the primary role of my training right now so I’m taking on a lot of clients and under supervision trying to learn much as I can….this is not my first primary birth. I’ve done about 30 births as primary. Primary is when you’re acting as midwife under supervision. So you’re calling a lot of the shots, delivering the baby, and consulting with whoever your supervising midwife is...but at the same time making a lot of the decisions than you would be if you were just assisting.â€

And a pop-up mentions that Jill has spent over 1000 hours in the past 3 years assisting at births.

[Coco]

Sorry but i bet i could do most of what Jill does with just the studying i did to get through two pregnancies/deliveries.

i've met Venessa, she's amazing. She is the kind of person to step back and let another person do quite a bit, but i really doubt that Jill is capable of easily starting an IV, able to give emergency shots of oxytocin to stop a hemorrhage or preform CPR to resuscitate a baby that isn't breathing.

Honestly it doesn't take much to coach a mom, be there by her side with encouragement, give back rubs, and massage a perineum with oil to prevent tearing, even though all of that is necessary and i can see how the moms Jill has helped do love her for her assistance. But if Jill hasn't completed nursing school and testing she isn't a medical professional.